Norfolk Gateway (It’s Complicated)

[zeppelin14]

Why are people here obsessed with height? Yeah I get it that Norfolk is nothing but 15-20 story buildings but H.R.'s doesn't have the Fortune 500 money, dense population that other cities have where a need for 50 story + buildings are needed. What's shown above is at least a nice design and would look great on that corner. Better than nothing that is there now. If Norfolk "holds out" for the need for a taller tower like someone else mentioned above, we'll all be dead before we see ground break.

[baobabs727]

12 minutes ago, zeppelin14 said:

Why are people here obsessed with height? Yeah I get it that Norfolk is nothing but 15-20 story buildings...

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well... speaking for myself, I did not say one thing about the story count. There are  so so so many more differences. Height is only one of them.  There’s also site plan, design, use/purpose, legacy considerations, etc. you only get one bite at the Apple.  (((((By the way, I have no idea what happened to this reply format. )))))))

Edited February 12, 2021 by baobabs727

[lammius]

16 minutes ago, baobabs727 said:

 

Agree 100%.

I’d rather have a good site plan and programme with low or mid rise buildings than a tall building on a bad site plan.

this just is not a good site plan for an urban downtown setting in the 2020s.  That’s what’s confusing and frustrating about this. I’m sure you could go to a meeting and hear the developer’s architect and planner tell a great story about how they were inspired by mermaids or some ish, but this “campus” plan doesn’t help to make downtown Norfolk a more walkable, vibrant, or interesting place.  It seems antiquated and out of touch with Norfolk’s goals. And to waste an opportunity like that would be a real shame, IMO. 

Despite being shorter in height this is still a big project for Norfolk. Do it well! 

 

[carolinaboy]

8 hours ago, lammius said:

Agree 100%.

I’d rather have a good site plan and programme with low or mid rise buildings than a tall building on a bad site plan.

this just is not a good site plan for an urban downtown setting in the 2020s.  That’s what’s confusing and frustrating about this. I’m sure you could go to a meeting and hear the developer’s architect and planner tell a great story about how they were inspired by mermaids or some ish, but this “campus” plan doesn’t help to make downtown Norfolk a more walkable, vibrant, or interesting place.  It seems antiquated and out of touch with Norfolk’s goals. And to waste an opportunity like that would be a real shame, IMO. 

Despite being shorter in height this is still a big project for Norfolk. Do it well! 

 

The mere fact that a substantial amount of residential appears to be proposed, I believe will make that section more vibrant, walkable and interesting. Coupled with other proposed near-by residential uses it makes it even more so (assuming these projects get built).  I feel like this proposal is tall enough and dense enough to make  a real difference for downtown Norfolk.

[vdogg]

I don't even know what this thing is, but one thing it's not is a structure befitting a "Gateway" to downtown. "Anything is better than nothing" does not apply here. We should not accept this. Horrible land usage. Hopefully ARB makes them redesign this. It's ugly.

For what it's worth the site still says "20 stories" but man this thing is ugly. I'd rather have nothing at all. Building looks like it just walked out of the 70s. It's hard for me to believe that the architects actually looked at this thing and said it was a better design than their last one...

[urbanlife]

On 2/11/2021 at 7:33 PM, zeppelin14 said:

Why are people here obsessed with height? Yeah I get it that Norfolk is nothing but 15-20 story buildings but H.R.'s doesn't have the Fortune 500 money, dense population that other cities have where a need for 50 story + buildings are needed. What's shown above is at least a nice design and would look great on that corner. Better than nothing that is there now. If Norfolk "holds out" for the need for a taller tower like someone else mentioned above, we'll all be dead before we see ground break.

I have to agree with you about the height, height isn't that important to a great urban environment. Sure, it is fun to see really tall towers under construction, but living in NYC for a couple years, it wasn't the tall towers that I enjoyed, it was the urban neighborhoods of 4 story buildings that had shops on the first floors and lots of people living in those areas. 

My initial impressions of this change of design is that the tower portion looks fine, it kind of looks like what City Hall would look like if it was built today. Overall, it looks like a decent office building. the lower portion of the building complex is a bit weird. The hotel portion seems odd, I assume it is the lower portion that wraps around City Hall because that's what tourists want to look at when they visit Norfolk? It doesn't sound like there will be any apartments in this building, nor does it sound like there retail space, so it will most likely be a dead space building. The driveway entrance to the hotel is also alarming because it makes the building seem inviting to cars, not pedestrians.

As much as I say height isn't an issue, it would make more sense to build the office building and garage portion, then have the 150 key hotel on top of the office space....or the office space on top of the hotel space (which ever produces more income goes on top,) and then have a smaller residential building that could be wrapping around City Hall, that also includes retail spaces to turn that light rail stop into an active pedestrian space. That stop could easily be a bustling little urban plaza within the city.

[BFG]

I figured out my issue. It looks like a hospital or medical building. If this were somewhere over in Fort Norfolk, I’d be fine with it. Downtown, not as much. 

Every time I look at the design, I see an all-glass PS3 PS2. 

Edited February 13, 2021 by BFG

[Buildthetowers]

Total disappointment, Once again with no surprise this area fails to come through on a proposed project that looked great at first. 

[BFG]

I decided to torture myself and look up the original design. There's no way in the world the city (or anyone with halfway decent eyesight) thinks the new design is an improvement. What does Hampton Roads have against curves and angles on its designs?

Again, put the redesign on the next Sentara or CHKD expansion. Bring back the original design for Gateway.

[baobabs727]

9 hours ago, BFG said:

I figured out my issue. It looks like a hospital or medical building. If this were somewhere over in Fort Norfolk, I’d be fine with it. Downtown, not as much. 

Every time I look at the design, I see an all-glass PS3 PS2. 

More like a POS.

[Norf Native]

I understand the disappointment with the change in design for this project and reduction in height but in my opinion, it should be built. If it’s not built there then it will end up in Town Center (remember  Clark Nexsen).

[lammius]

5 hours ago, Norf Native said:

I understand the disappointment with the change in design for this project and reduction in height but in my opinion, it should be built. If it’s not built there then it will end up in Town Center (remember  Clark Nexsen).

Or they could just give a couple of mid level associates __ hours of labor to fix the site plan first, which would be much cheaper than acquiring and drawing up a new site in another location. 

[baobabs727]

6 hours ago, Norf Native said:

I understand the disappointment with the change in design for this project and reduction in height but in my opinion, it should be built. If it’s not built there then it will end up in Town Center (remember  Clark Nexsen).

No. It won’t. 

Besides, that’s not very regionalist of you.  

Edited February 14, 2021 by baobabs727

[Arctic_Tern]

9 hours ago, Norf Native said:

I understand the disappointment with the change in design for this project and reduction in height but in my opinion, it should be built. If it’s not built there then it will end up in Town Center (remember  Clark Nexsen).

Hey y'all I wanted to let ya know I actually bought a plot and got some site plans drawn up for a development on one the last prime pieces of property in downtown. It features a strip mall and a 2 story "tower". Please don't say anything mean about it it's a great development and besides this is the best the city can do anyways. Sure maybe I promised an architecturally and visually distinctive building that would have a huge presence in the city and region but this is totally good too please stop being mean.

[vdogg]

Honestly, we have this conversation several times each year because it keeps happening. Over, and over, and over again. Enough of this. Every time somebody comes back with a disappointing design the conversation always turns to "well, it's better than nothing" or "it's the best that Norfolk can do". No, actually, this is not better than nothing. This is absolutely not the best that Norfolk can do. The only way we get out of this rut and start getting better things is if we demand better. ARB needs to send this back to the drawing board. It's an insult...

If you have to reduce the height, ok, I hate it, but it is what it is. At the very least your "Gateway" building should have its reduction in height compensated for with visually arresting design. It should be a grand building, and not something akin to a suburban college campus...

[BeagleAccountant]

Is this on any of the agendas for discussion for ARB or city planning?

[BFG]

I just love that “It’s Complicated”.

[Urbanlooker]

1 hour ago, BeagleAccountant said:

Is this on any of the agendas for discussion for ARB or city planning?

I can tell you that planning doesn't know about it yet. Granted the person I heard from doesn't deal with developments directly but they do see them pretty early on once it's with planning. 

This is very disappointing though. It's not even that the height is reduced but the design is terrible and not fitting with the urban fabric of any city. 

[vdogg]

5 hours ago, BeagleAccountant said:

Is this on any of the agendas for discussion for ARB or city planning?

Not yet, which gives me hope. This may be just another one of their brainstorming sessions.

[baobabs727]

All of that wasted $$$$ land taken up by that nursing home/country club style traffic circle entry with a canopy (à la World Trade Center on Main Street actually). Ugh!

The way that one of those long jail-like apartment row segments juts over on an angle to avoid City Hall... like “oops, detour!”  Yikes!

Just call those apartments “The Not-So-Great-Wall of Norfolk!”

 

Edited February 17, 2021 by baobabs727

[urbanlife]

On 2/13/2021 at 8:10 AM, BFG said:

I figured out my issue. It looks like a hospital or medical building. If this were somewhere over in Fort Norfolk, I’d be fine with it. Downtown, not as much. 

Every time I look at the design, I see an all-glass PS3 PS2. 

I'm with you on this one, this would actually be a really good proposal for Fort Norfolk, even with the hotel driveway portion. 

This site by City Hall should have a building like the PNC Building in Raleigh. Just the rectangle site next to City Hall is big enough for a tower like this.

[carolina1792]

10 hours ago, urbanlife said:

I'm with you on this one, this would actually be a really good proposal for Fort Norfolk, even with the hotel driveway portion. 

This site by City Hall should have a building like the PNC Building in Raleigh. Just the rectangle site next to City Hall is big enough for a tower like this.

Or the new Union Station Bus Station tower.  The feds are paying for the base of the tower through $30+ million in FTA grant money maybe Norfolk could work out something similar. 

 

Edited February 17, 2021 by carolina1792

[urbanlife]

11 hours ago, carolina1792 said:

Or the new Union Station Bus Station tower.  The feds are paying for the base of the tower through $30+ million in FTA grant money maybe Norfolk could work out something similar. 

 

I didn't know about this project, yeah, this design would be even good for that.

[vdogg]

On 2/11/2021 at 5:15 AM, Asdfjkl; said:

Updated Hanbury Renderings

Maybe it’s not dead but these renderings appear to be a massive reduction in height. The city would be much better off waiting until there is demand for the tower as originally proposed. 

Had to come back here and verify but the renderings at that link no longer exist. Perhaps our voices have been heard. 

[vdogg]

1 hour ago, Asdfjkl; said:

Here they are in case anyone wants to reference back. State of the city is Thursday so I would expect to hear something there if the images were any indication of progress on the project. 

No one wanted to see that again...