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Good News for the Panthers Staying in Charlotte, Many High Ranking NFL Agents and the NFL Owner himself, Have said things that would keep the Panthers in Charlotte. I think if someone were to try to move them out of Charlotte, They would seek controversy and a hard time getting approval.

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Well said about the current state of affairs on these forums. UP used to be leaps and bounds above other forums that focus on similar subjects. It's still my go to source of development info, but it is no longer the shining beacon of civility and positivity it once was. Sad because I genuinely love this site. It is absolutely the only site I have visited on a regular basis for over ten years.

Now, in order to prevent this post from being completely unnessary I'll say that I don't give a damn about a Super Bowl coming to Charlotte once every eight to ten years. I think that would be, at best, the most frequent it would happen by the time us taxpayers give the new owners the gift of a dome. By then I think the league would have a few more cities with new domes as well thus adding to the list of potential hosts. I would be pretty pissed if WE helped a few billionaires build something that makes them truckloads of cash every year for the chance of a game that I would most likely not be able to afford a ticket to once a decade. 

Now, I understand that essentially the taxpayer dollars are basically an investment, that the 500B WE put in should, in theory, give the city a return of maybe a few hundred million over a number of years, helps support more jobs, yada yada. The thing is that long before WE make our investment back the owners would be back at it again telling us they need more because in 20-25 years it won't be luxury boxes it will be landing pads for the personal flying vehicles the elite use to get from place to place. 

If they want their toys and gadgets let them pony up 85-90% of it. I can stomach helping with the other 10-15% since there is a tangible benefit to the people. It's just not nearly as big as they want us to think.

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On 2/4/2018 at 8:39 AM, hinsp0 said:

Also, I shoul add that I’m a PSL owner and will shun the team and the league if I lose my PSL due to the construction of a new venue for the Panthers.  I realize that I’m a small fry and that the fine print on my PSL only ties me to the venue once know as Ericsson Stadium.  But screwing PSL owners out of their “investment” does not build goodwill for the team or league.  

The PSL issue, I think, is going to be more difficult for the team to navigate than getting public money.   go_vertical gives a pretty good example of what I think is the mindset of most people.  That being some money is going to happen but not as much as the team would like or expected if this was 10 years ago.  

I was talking about this issue last night with a neighbor and out of that conversation came the notion that the longer the Panthers go in the current stadium the less likely it is that the PSL owners get any value in a new stadium.  If what I am reading is correct, each PSL cost ~$3,000 in 1995.  If the Panthers stay in the new stadium for another 10 years, which is almost guaranteed, that's 32 years or $93.75 per year or $11.71 per each of the 8 home games per year.   Less than what ticket master charges.    It's going to be a really hard sell on the rest of the region to gift seat licenses to a new stadium on that kind of math.    Especially if the Panthers want to sell new PSLs to help fund the a new stadium.  

With all due respect, I also don't think your PSL not transferring over would amount to screwing you over.    

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Your math is a tad off.  The average PSL may have been $3,000 in 1995, but some were a lot more than that.  Additionally, not all PSL owners bough in 1995, so you can't really divide by 32 years.  The team is still actively selling them and the minimum price is now $3,000.  There is alsoa very active secondary market.  So there are fans who as recently as last season paid several thousand dollars per PSL.  

But the biggest issue with the math is it assumes the PSL fee is all that was paid.  The Purchase of the PSL obligates the owner to pay whatever price the team decides to charge for tickets, regardless of the teams performance for all 10 home games (yes, we have to pay full price for the 2 preseason games as well).    We paid for all 10 games during the 1 and 15 season in 2001, and the 2 and 14 season in 2010.  All the while, the price of those tickets going up 10 to 20% per year.   Prices have risen  over 400% in the 22 years the team has played in Charlotte.    

The Panthers like to brag about the sellout streak, but without the contractual captives of the PSL owners, it would never have happened.  Abandoning them to build a new stadium would be a mistake for any new ownership group.

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57 minutes ago, Blakcatfan said:

The Panthers like to brag about the sellout streak, but without the contractual captives of the PSL owners, it would never have happened.  Abandoning them to build a new stadium would be a mistake for any new ownership group

Interesting point I hadn't really considered in depth.  Hope the new owner considers this.  I am not sure PSLs would work a second time around for a new stadium, given this consideration.

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3 hours ago, Blakcatfan said:

Your math is a tad off.  The average PSL may have been $3,000 in 1995, but some were a lot more than that.  Additionally, not all PSL owners bough in 1995, so you can't really divide by 32 years.  The team is still actively selling them and the minimum price is now $3,000.  There is alsoa very active secondary market.  So there are fans who as recently as last season paid several thousand dollars per PSL.  

But the biggest issue with the math is it assumes the PSL fee is all that was paid.  The Purchase of the PSL obligates the owner to pay whatever price the team decides to charge for tickets, regardless of the teams performance for all 10 home games (yes, we have to pay full price for the 2 preseason games as well).    We paid for all 10 games during the 1 and 15 season in 2001, and the 2 and 14 season in 2010.  All the while, the price of those tickets going up 10 to 20% per year.   Prices have risen  over 400% in the 22 years the team has played in Charlotte.   

Fair points on the fact that PSLs are still being sold and that not not all PSLs are 32 years old.  You might phrase it as an obligation but others, like myself, would call it a right.  Since there is a very active secondary market and new PSLs being sold, one could say that this right has a fair value regardless of purchase date.   If people have been able to sell their PSLs for more than they paid...the 'obligation' burden is even less of an argument I would think.  

Either way it's a pretty simple contract that's entered into by two willing parties.   One that clearly states it is tied to the current stadium.  

3 hours ago, Blakcatfan said:

Abandoning them to build a new stadium would be a mistake for any new ownership group.

It would only be a mistake if they were unable to sell the necessary number of PSLs for the new stadium.   As you mentioned, there are people buying PSLs all of the time.  A new PSL owner doesn't care what stadium they are buying into...just as long as it's the stadium in use.

Like I said before....this is going to be the most challenging part of the process.   And that's sad because it can fracture a community.   If public money is involved, the public is going to demand new PSLs be issued to offset the cost.    The Panthers could pay for the stadium out of pocket and then transfer the PSLs but that's about as likely as the team being moved.  Possible but not probable.  

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  • 4 months later...

CBJ has an interesting article today that mentions the Panthers practice fields are likely to move. They speculate (without much evidence) that they are likely to end up in York County — which they say will be problematic for the state  due  to income tax assesment determinations. 

I am intrigued  by what could become of the Cedar street facilities, the site is contaminated so residential is (I think) unlikely but there is certainly an opportunity to make the area much more intensively utilized.

https://www.bizjournals.com/charlotte/news/2018/05/30/panthers-incentives-ts-becoming-clearer-what-the.html

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10 minutes ago, kermit said:

CBJ has an interesting article today that mentions the Panthers practice fields are likely to move. They speculate (without much evidence) that they are likely to end up in York County — which they say will be problematic for the state  due  to income tax assesment determinations. 

I am intrigued  by what could become of the Cedar street facilities, the site is contaminated so residential is (I think) unlikely but there is certainly an opportunity to make the area much more intensively utilized.

https://www.bizjournals.com/charlotte/news/2018/05/30/panthers-incentives-ts-becoming-clearer-what-the.html

Wait can you elaborate on the contamination on the site?? I didn’t know there was such an issue 

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5 minutes ago, saamh said:

Wait can you elaborate on the contamination on the site?? I didn’t know there was such an issue 

It was before I arrived in Charlotte so you all should provide whatever corrections necessary. Before the Panters arrived the site was a scrapyard.  The city did minimal remediation when the fields were built (I believe they trucked out a few feet of soil and replaced it with non-contaminated) since the practice field use didn’t require much work. IIRC the limited remediation means that uses that would create more exposure (like residential) would require more cleanup or perhaps just no ground floor uses.

It was a longgg time ago so I am fuzzy on details.

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See here from January 12 in the Knights Stadium thread:

On 1/12/2018 at 4:22 PM, tarhoosier said:

The land under which the stadium was built was for a century or more an African American area of the (much smaller) city. The Isabella Wyche elementary school, the Third Ward recreation center and Good Samaritan Hospital made up much of this property. The school closed in 1970 or so and had become a work release jail site by the 1980's with men spending the night in the building and going to their job in the daytime. Razor wire was around the site. It was an area that no one could imagine would be attractive and thus could be packaged by the city and county for the stadium.

https://perry1644.wordpress.com/2013/06/28/good-samaritan-hospital/

The current practice field was part of the Smith Metal and Iron yard, a "junkyard" that was from the Civil War as it was on the rail line. A century of dumping metals, distillates, and chemicals of every kind made it whatever worse-than-brownfield could be.  The soil was removed, much of it "cooked",  much more acceptable soil replaced the former dangerous ground now used as the Panthers practice area.

This is why the municipal boards could provide this land as they could not otherwise even give it away.  The Panthers had no intention of buying land that could be potentially dangerous, thus the 1$/year. It was a good deal for everyone.

I worked with the daughter- in-law of Isabella Wyche. I played basketball at the Third Ward Recreation center around 1980.  (Atrocious lighting even with large lamps that hung so low that one had to adjust his shot or pass to a teammate.)

 

 

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Thanks for the insight! So what could you even build on that site, office? A hotel wouldn’t even work probably... I guess the only way residential or hotel could maybe work is if you build a few story garage below the residential units

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On 6/15/2018 at 11:12 AM, Jasons0013 said:

Did the city not have plans to extend Martin Luther King Jr. Blvd through to Cedar at one point?  This might be their chance to do that.

According to the Charlotte rail plans presentation, they have shifted that to be a stonewall street extension which would use an existing railroad underpass and not build a new one for MLK.    Stonewall is a far better choice as it could align to extend through the area that is now parking lots south of the Lakewood Trolley tracks and be weaved into any redevelopment there rather than dead ending at Cedar. It could also be curved to connect to Hill St. 

http://charlottenc.gov/Projects/Documents/CharlotteRailroadProjectsUpdate.pdf

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