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1 hour ago, cjd5050 said:

The sticky part about moving the Carolina Hurricanes is that the owner also owns the arena.  Walking away from Raleigh would mean walking away from that revenue directly back into your pocket and devaluing the asset itself.  

PNC Arena is owned by Centennial Authority, which is a government created entity that owns and operates the facility.

 

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12 hours ago, ChessieCat said:

 

NFL rules require a single big investor to control at least 30% of the team.  One of the above will have to pony up $600 million to buy that control from the Richardson estate alongside everyone else ponying up $1.4 Billion collectively (if the Panthers are valued at $2B).  We shall see...  

Not following your logic here. If Jerry owns, lets say 50% of the team, and the team is valued at $2 billion, then his controlling stake is worth $1 billion. The other owners aren't impacted by that in any way. They already own their shares of the team. Your ownership of the team is decided by shares you own, not how much you spent to acquire those shares.

If I buy 50% of a company's shares at $1 per share and someone years later comes in and buys the other 50% of the company at $50 per share, I still own 50% of the company despite paying 50x less than he did.

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The Richardson Family owns/owned a 47% stake in the team. No mention what happened after his son passed away but his 7% share of that 47% was to be sold.  I assume Jerry bought it to keep it in the family.  Assume that his other son still owns the same 7%  his brother had, at a minimum, Jerry personally owns 33%.  The family isn't going to sell the controlling interest piecemeal.  It would be to one person, whether they own another portion of the team or not.  That means $400-800m commitment from someone to buy Jerry's controlling share. 

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1 hour ago, Niner National said:

PNC Arena is owned by Centennial Authority, which is a government created entity that owns and operates the facility.

 

My mistake.  Read something that said Gale Force counted it as an asset.    

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23 hours ago, cjd5050 said:

There are 2 sides to the story.  

Not all stadiums are equal.  They are built in different cities which makes comparing what happened 'there' to what would happen 'here' almost impossible.  When a warm weather city, like LA or San Diego, builds a new stadium there is a reasonable connection made to landing major events like a Super Bowl.  But if Buffalo were to build a new stadium...the same can not be said.  

After all, Charlotte lost a lot of events due to HB2 but the only reason Charlotte had those events in the first place was due to having the stadiums and arenas for it.  Take the ACC Conference Championship game w/o any HB2 issues in 20 years.  The ACC is a customer and they are going to shop for the best possible setup.  Right now BofA is competitive.  In 20 years.....I don't know.  

But my biggest issue with these stadiums is that they always speak to 'economic development' and don't reference other items like quality of life or real estate development.  The reason is it's very hard for an academic who wants to or is paid to produce these studies to actually measure all of the impact.  Measuring 'economic development' is not as difficult so the basis of these studies is on them.  

I'll give you an example of real estate development and quality of life that's not measured.  It comes down to where a stadium is built or the Goldilocks location.

If you build a stadium in a sea of parking out in the middle of nowhere...you're not going to create spin off development. 

If you build a stadium in the middle of a dense downtown...you're not going to create any spin off development that wouldn't happen eventually on its own.

But, if you build a stadium in an area that needs a tipping point...then you can start to see real estate and quality of life improvements.  Take the location that Birky suggested.  Right now that's industrial and somewhat sketchy.  Even though there is the BLE there, redevelopment is slow and not on the scale of other areas like SouthEnd.  

If a stadium were built there, you would start to see the conversion of industrial properties to mixed use.  A developer is not going to build a tower next to a trucking transfer depot but they will build a tower next to a stadium.  When you add the stadium and tower...you add people.  People makes the whole area a lot safer and this increases the quality of life for the entire area.  

This is what happened in San Francisco and San Diego when they built their new baseball stadiums.  

Don't think comparing baseball stadiums (81 reg season home games) to football stadiums (8 reg season home games) is an apples to apples comparison when considering spurring development. Esp considering how few non-Panthers events the ownership has allowed at BofA...would that continue w/ a new stadium?

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40 minutes ago, mad_park said:

Don't think comparing baseball stadiums (81 reg season home games) to football stadiums (8 reg season home games) is an apples to apples comparison when considering spurring development. Esp considering how few non-Panthers events the ownership has allowed at BofA...would that continue w/ a new stadium?

If we're talking about economic impact maybe but I don't think the number of games matters much when it comes to real estate development or quality of life.  

On economic development, while it's true that MLB has about 5 times as many fans go to the game, NFL fans seem to do a much better job of 'going out and spending money' to watch games either home or away.  How many people base their entire day around a MLB game?  I don't think many because there are too many games.  But that's just an inference. 

On real estate development and quality of life, it's the building not the events that trigger those improvements.  In fact, people might be more in line living in a stadium district that only has 12-15 big events a year rather than 81 to 95.  I lived in the East Village where Petco Park is located.  My condo was built because of its proximity to Petco by and large and it kinda sucked to deal with traffic.  But it was nice living in an area that was super safe 365.  Must add that where Petco is built was an area of 'stop signs are optional' just before it was built.  

At the end of the day it's different for each city and each stadium.  Some stadium deals are horrible and others do work out.  It just depends.  It's why I almost instantly disregard absolute positions on the subject because in life there are very few absolutes.  

As mentioned before, I do think there are ways to prevent bad deals but you have to get creative and push aside the angst that rich people are going to make money on it.  

Edited by cjd5050

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5 hours ago, cjd5050 said:

The sticky part about moving the Carolina Hurricanes is that the owner also owns the arena.  Walking away from Raleigh would mean walking away from that revenue directly back into your pocket and devaluing the asset itself.  

Good point. I didn't mean to imply that I think the Hurricanes should move. I'd rather they just be the Raleigh Hurricanes or NC Hurricanes - just don't pretend that South Carolina has anything to do with that team.

 

3 hours ago, Niner National said:

Not following your logic here. If Jerry owns, lets say 50% of the team, and the team is valued at $2 billion, then his controlling stake is worth $1 billion. The other owners aren't impacted by that in any way. They already own their shares of the team. Your ownership of the team is decided by shares you own, not how much you spent to acquire those shares.

If I buy 50% of a company's shares at $1 per share and someone years later comes in and buys the other 50% of the company at $50 per share, I still own 50% of the company despite paying 50x less than he did.

It's been in the Observer before... Richardson's estate will hold his shares for 2 years and then sell. His family will get the money.

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On 10/24/2016 at 2:08 PM, DMann said:

If I were king, I would change the path of I277 and run it down Carson Street elevating it along Carson turning it over Tryon and reconnect going over College and reconnection with the current alignment.  A massive area would be delivered for development.

But note, I am not king.

Elevated highways like the Brookshire freeway disconnect neighborhoods-- just see what it did to West Charlotte that is lamented to this day. 

If I were king I would put a cap over 277 and connect South End with the inner loop.

Edited by ChessieCat

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5 hours ago, Niner National said:

Not following your logic here. If Jerry owns, lets say 50% of the team, and the team is valued at $2 billion, then his controlling stake is worth $1 billion. The other owners aren't impacted by that in any way. They already own their shares of the team. Your ownership of the team is decided by shares you own, not how much you spent to acquire those shares.

If I buy 50% of a company's shares at $1 per share and someone years later comes in and buys the other 50% of the company at $50 per share, I still own 50% of the company despite paying 50x less than he did.

 

4 hours ago, InSouthPark said:

The Richardson Family owns/owned a 47% stake in the team. No mention what happened after his son passed away but his 7% share of that 47% was to be sold.  I assume Jerry bought it to keep it in the family.  Assume that his other son still owns the same 7%  his brother had, at a minimum, Jerry personally owns 33%.  The family isn't going to sell the controlling interest piecemeal.  It would be to one person, whether they own another portion of the team or not.  That means $400-800m commitment from someone to buy Jerry's controlling share. 

Thank you InSouthPark for your answer.  @Niner National I was referring to Jerry's personal stake of 33% which would have to be bought in one block to maintain the 30% controlling threshold required by the NFL.  Who knows if the rest of the family sells theirs to the same individual alongside Jerry's estate.  Regardless, there will be a control premium and it won't be cheap.

Edited by ChessieCat

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Anyone else just simply love the design of the current stadium? It's objectively beautiful (putting aside my love for the panthers). It's also just simply so iconic, it would be a crime to remove it from uptown. Having a stadium uptown is much better than having it in the middle of nowhere. The only acceptable thing in my opinion is if it gets ZERO public funding for a new one and it's beside a rail option. Either the new silver line, where the red line will go in the future, or the blue line.

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I drove to up(down)town last night by way of Stonewall heading west and stopped at the S Tryon light. Without the Observer building the Stadium giant 

display (far left of this photo below) was immense and luminous. Truly impressive view from two blocks away. Enjoy it until the new Lincoln Harris building goes up. Not enough time to grab the photo.

carolinapanthers_nightexterior_t1.jpg?h=

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IMO the best solution for the Panthers is to keep upgrading the current stadium. Second-best would be to have their home games at the biggest college stadiums in NC/SC for a year while they rebuild in the current location. Sort of a NFL/Panthers roadshow, 2 games each at Death Valley in Clemson, Williams-Bryce in Columbia, Kenan in Chapel Hill, and Carter-Finley in Raleigh. I think it would be tremendous fun.

Sent from my LGL44VL using Tapatalk

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If there is a new Panthers stadium, and not a big refurb job of the existing one, it won't be an issue until after there is an ownership change. Richardson and company are pretty old school and content with where BofA stadium sits now. Honestly, I hope Panthers football is played uptown for the rest of our lifetimes. 

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I feel like it's time for this new thread. WCNC Did a story on land that is being looked at for a possible new Panthers Stadium, I hate the idea of it, Uptown Bars and Restaurants get hundreds upon hundreds of customers before and after the game. It's like walking in NYC after a Panthers game lets out, I don't know that I'm ready for the Stadium to go a good bit outside of the City.  

http://www.wcnc.com/sports/exclusive-where-the-new-carolina-panthers-stadium-could-be-built/506618541

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I apologize, That’s Odd, I looked all over to make sure there wasn’t already a panthers stadium thread. I want the Panthers to stay at the location they are. I could care less if they get a new stadium or not as long as they stay where they are.

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Yeah... not a fan of stateline stadium idea.  If they do it, I hope the build a complete development (offices, hotels, retail) around it like braves new stadium or cowboys new practice facility, but still don't like the idea.

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7 minutes ago, Hunted said:

However, when the eventual time comes for the stadium to be replaced, I’d prefer if they just play at a college stadium for the duration of construction like the Vikings did when the Metrodome collapsed a few years ago. That way the same parcel of land it’s currently on can be reused instead of them relocating to an inferior location. I love where BOA currently is.

To add to your preference this is the 2nd stadium for the Panthers.  I know it was a different era and all but the team has a history with Clemson.  Which makes me think how much Wofford is about to lose with Richardson connection.  Bersin too for that matter.  

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^^ I just remembered this being discussed a lot a long time ago.   That stateline site is 90% in NC across from the McCullough neighborhood in Pineville.  I honestly dont see that as happening. Those homes from 300-500K will pitch a fit if this site is even considered I am sure.  Pineville would not even allow the LYNX to end there for fear of traffic.  

I get that controlling parking would be good for the owners of course but I would say this site is a nonstarter.  

Don't hate me for saying this but many NFL stadiums are in the suburbs for example Dallas, Houston, Miami, NY Jets and Giants, Phoenix, etc.  I love the idea of walking from the stadium to an uptown area like ours.  However that has not stopped any of the cities mentioned above from having a SuperBowl.   An arena generates many more events than an NFL sized stadium just a fact dont shoot the messenger.   I love the fact the Panthers play uptown but to build a new stadium I ask where?  Levine-land, all of Brooklyn 2nd Ward, maybe the Charlotte Pipe and Foundry land along West Morehead.  Honestly there are not but a handful of options if these are really options.  When this stadium was built it was surrounded by surface lots and small industrial buildings.  

The best scenario is to renovate keep the existing stadium. Unfortunately we dont have an Atlanta situation here with acres of land to build another stadium on next door to our existing one.  This is going to be a busy thread over the next couple of years I believe. 

One more thing on the stadium currently, I am not an engineer but is it even possible to dome what we have now and would that not be cheaper?  Something like the old Georgia Dome and by the way the new Mercedes Stadium retractable roof leaked last night on the Championship game. 

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4 hours ago, KJHburg said:

^^ I just remembered this being discussed a lot a long time ago.   That stateline site is 90% in NC across from the McCullough neighborhood in Pineville.  I honestly dont see that as happening. Those homes from 300-500K will pitch a fit if this site is even considered I am sure.  Pineville would not even allow the LYNX to end there for fear of traffic.  

I get that controlling parking would be good for the owners of course but I would say this site is a nonstarter.  

Don't hate me for saying this but many NFL stadiums are in the suburbs for example Dallas, Houston, Miami, NY Jets and Giants, Phoenix, etc.  I love the idea of walking from the stadium to an uptown area like ours.  However that has not stopped any of the cities mentioned above from having a SuperBowl.   An arena generates many more events than an NFL sized stadium just a fact dont shoot the messenger.   I love the fact the Panthers play uptown but to build a new stadium I ask where?  Levine-land, all of Brooklyn 2nd Ward, maybe the Charlotte Pipe and Foundry land along West Morehead.  Honestly there are not but a handful of options if these are really options.  When this stadium was built it was surrounded by surface lots and small industrial buildings.  

The best scenario is to renovate keep the existing stadium. Unfortunately we dont have an Atlanta situation here with acres of land to build another stadium on next door to our existing one.  This is going to be a busy thread over the next couple of years I believe. 

One more thing on the stadium currently, I am not an engineer but is it even possible to dome what we have now and would that not be cheaper?  Something like the old Georgia Dome and by the way the new Mercedes Stadium retractable roof leaked last night on the Championship game. 

Continuing to renovate the existing stadium is like continually putting a band aid over a sore. The stadium is lacking when compared to the newer NFL sadiums. Why not just demolish the current stadium and let the Panthers play at some college stadium while a new one is constructed in the existing location like the Minnesota Vikings did. Uptown doesn’t need to lose the location. 

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I agree with the tear down and rebuild on the current site being what I hope happens.  I think it'd be kind of cool if the team split half a season at Clemson and half at NC State/UNC.  Or do the first season at one then the other before coming back home.  I'd miss having the team in Charlotte for those years but that's a cool opportunity to reach out to both the Carolinas and continue to grow the fan base.

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