Carolina Panthers Facilities

[Brendv7]

9 hours ago, InSouthPark said:

Rock Hill has a population of 73k.  It's not like they are putting this in Mineral Springs or something.   If they turn this into an entertainment area and you were a young professional, why wouldn't you want to rent an apartment there?  As for hotels, if you haven't noticed, pretty much every exit off of an interstate has multiple hotels no matter if there are attractions or not. 

Like many in the area, I am a young professional from the Northeast. The only way I’m living in Fort Mill is if I’m jumping the border to get more house for my money one day. 73k people in a city of 40+ square miles is a density and character more analogous to average size towns in NE  suburbia. 

[eastsider]

5 hours ago, InSouthPark said:

I think most hope for an Eastland MLS solution and I would venture to say, so does City Council.  It's a win-win for both in terms of saving face. 

And if they turn him down...don't be surprised if he puts the MLS HQ on his land in Rock Hill as a big F-You to city council and they would have major egg on their face for turning down the first "real" development of Eastland this past decade.  Remember this is a guy who bought a 45mil mansion of an old boss that passed him over so he could tear it down and build a house 3x as big, just because he could.  

So Tepper moves the team and their tax money to South Carolina, plans to invest in skyscrapers and casinos (yeah right) in South Carolina and Charlotte is just supposed to hand him money? H'es going to threaten to build the new stadium in South Carolina to try and milk more money out of Charlotte so the city might as well start telling him no now.

[C85]

Exclusive: Panthers’ plan could give Rock Hill the state’s tallest building.

Read more here: https://www.heraldonline.com/news/local/article237075429.html#storylink=cpy

https://www.heraldonline.com/news/local/article237075429.html

[KJHburg]

SC would not even approve a casino for a Native American tribe in their own state (the Catawbas) I don't see how that would change for Mr Tepper and this project in Rock Hill.  

I think this facility in Rock Hill will be nice but some of these ideas are out there but I guess he is planning for everything. The last time someone came to York County and promised high rises and so forth and massive development it did not end well. 

[CarolinaDaydreamin]

4 hours ago, KJHburg said:

SC would not even approve a casino for a Native American tribe in their own state (the Catawbas) I don't see how that would change for Mr Tepper and this project in Rock Hill.  

I think this facility in Rock Hill will be nice but some of these ideas are out there but I guess he is planning for everything. The last time someone came to York County and promised high rises and so forth and massive development it did not end well. 

TBF he hasn't mentioned building a casino. I think an NFL team has a draw more than just a Hampton Inn and a few chain restaurants. It will take a lot of work to get this to what Tepper's dream would be; however, he has the ambition, pocket book and relationships to provide something that Charlotte doesn't currently have. I could see this project taking a bit of the momentum from Ballentyne and Lancaster county and redirecting it to a more town center location. The Battery in Atlanta is about half the distance from DT Atlanta as this is to CLT but it has surprised many and probably has fewer unique characteristics as this project hypothetically has. 

 

6 hours ago, eastsider said:

So Tepper moves the team and their tax money to South Carolina, plans to invest in skyscrapers and casinos (yeah right) in South Carolina and Charlotte is just supposed to hand him money? H'es going to threaten to build the new stadium in South Carolina to try and milk more money out of Charlotte so the city might as well start telling him no now.

I mean what Charlotte would be giving is something VERY different than a suburban practice facility for just an NFL team and a HQ in name only. Charlotte doesn't feel betrayed by SC and nor should we. The Panthers have never had their camp in NC and it has always been a two state team. A new stadium and MLS team will be worth a couple hundred mil investment from the city. 

[cltbwimob]

6 hours ago, CarolinaDaydreamin said:

A new stadium and MLS team will be worth a couple hundred mil investment from the city. 

Really??? A couple hundred mil???

A couple hundred mil isn’t likely to even touch what the final ask will be as he’s already asked for a couple hundred mil from S.C. to move the Panthers there and he’s supposedly asking the city for another couple hundred mil for renovations to BofA plus an MLS headquarters.  So he’s already asked taxpayers in various jurisdictions for a couple hundred mil and not the first penny has been spent on a new stadium.  The going rate for new NFL stadiums of the caliber he wants to build are $1.6-$1.8 billion dollars in today’s money and will likely exceed $2 billion by the time he gets a new one (assuming he does).  If past asks/total investment ratios are any indication, he will likely want the city to pay somewhere around 40-50% of the cost, which means his ask for a new stadium will be likely somewhere in the range of a billion dollars.  All told taxpayers between Charlotte-Mecklenburg  and South Carolina will likely have to pony up somewhere in the neighborhood of $1.2-1.3 billion with most of that, probably around $1.1 billion, falling on Charlotte-Mecklenburg.  And remember this whole notion includes spending tens/hundreds of millions-on top of the $87.5 million already spent-to renovate a stadium that he plans to abandon in 10 years. There’s a couple hundred million right there that will merely be abandoned and presumably demolished.
 

I have to ask since no one thus far has been able to articulate-why do we need a new stadium or what about a new stadium makes it such a good investment?  Do we need it to attract headlining concerts? Nope.  Billy Joel and Garth Brooks, two of the biggest names in the business and two of only a few acts who can fill a football stadium, are stopping by BofA next year.  Do we need a new stadium to bring in MLS?  Not likely considering that the MLS commissioner said that our bid was one of the top 3 and had in essence moved to the front of the line.  The only incremental benefit to having a new stadium is the ability to host a Super Bowl/ Final Four/ CFB Championship.  But are a few Super Bowls and Final Fours worth the $1 bil+ price tag?  Not at all.  Paying a billion dollars for the chance to host a few marquee games such as the Super Bowl, CFB Championship, or Final Four is kind of like spending a hundred dollars to make ten dollars.  

Edited November 27, 2019 by cltbwimob

[CarolinaDaydreamin]

1 hour ago, cltbwimob said:

Really??? A couple hundred mil???

A couple hundred mil isn’t likely to even touch what the final ask will be as he’s already asked for a couple hundred mil from S.C. to move the Panthers there and he’s supposedly asking the city for another couple hundred mil for renovations to BofA plus an MLS headquarters.  So he’s already asked taxpayers in various jurisdictions for a couple hundred mil and not the first penny has been spent on a new stadium.  The going rate for new NFL stadiums of the caliber he wants to build are $1.6-$1.8 billion dollars in today’s money and will likely exceed $2 billion by the time he gets a new one (assuming he does).  If past asks/total investment ratios are any indication, he will likely want the city to pay somewhere around 40-50% of the cost, which means his ask for a new stadium will be likely somewhere in the range of a billion dollars.  All told taxpayers between Charlotte-Mecklenburg  and South Carolina will likely have to pony up somewhere in the neighborhood of $1.2-1.3 billion with most of that, probably around $1.1 billion, falling on Charlotte-Mecklenburg.  And remember this whole notion includes spending tens/hundreds of millions-on top of the $87.5 million already spent-to renovate a stadium that he plans to abandon in 10 years. There’s a couple hundred million right there that will merely be abandoned and presumably demolished.
 

I have to ask since no one thus far has been able to articulate-why do we need a new stadium or what about a new stadium makes it such a good investment?  Do we need it to attract headlining concerts? Nope.  Billy Joel and Garth Brooks, two of the biggest names in the business and two of only a few acts who can fill a football stadium, are stopping by BofA next year.  Do we need a new stadium to bring in MLS?  Not likely considering that the MLS commissioner said that our bid was one of the top 3 and had in essence moved to the front of the line.  The only incremental benefit to having a new stadium is the ability to host a Super Bowl/ Final Four/ CFB Championship.  But are a few Super Bowls and Final Fours worth the $1 bil+ price tag?  Not at all.  Paying a billion dollars for the chance to host a few marquee games such as the Super Bowl, CFB Championship, or Final Four is kind of like spending a hundred dollars to make ten dollars.  

Your figures are hyperbolic. Atlanta just contributed 200m for the Mercedes Benz Stadium. There is no way Meck is in the 1B area.

200m to Tepper for renovations for soccer and MLS is worth it, the $ would come out of taxes that are contributed by visitors not the local tax payer and the impact of MLS could be substantial. Atlanta United has more visitors per year for 17 MLS games than the Falcons do for 10 NFL games.

[Hushpuppy321]

Who’s currently more wealthy?  Arthur Blank (ATL) or David Tepper (CLT/Florida)

Edited November 27, 2019 by Hushpuppy321

[nuthinberger]

4 minutes ago, Hushpuppy321 said:

Who’s currently more wealthy?  Arthur Blank (ATL) or David Tepper (CLT/Florida)

Tepper.  More than double.

[Hushpuppy321]

35 minutes ago, CarolinaDaydreamin said:

Your figures are hyperbolic. Atlanta just contributed 200m for the Mercedes Benz Stadium. There is no way Meck is in the 1B area.

200m to Tepper for renovations for soccer and MLS is worth it, the $ would come out of taxes that are contributed by visitors not the local tax payer and the impact of MLS could be substantial. Atlanta United has more visitors per year for 17 MLS games than the Falcons do for 10 NFL games.

Do you know how then the Mercedes-Benz Stadium was financed?  That’s a far cry from 200 Million to 2 Billion.  

[CarolinaDaydreamin]

2 minutes ago, Hushpuppy321 said:

Do you know how then the Mercedes-Benz Stadium was financed?  That’s a far cry from 200 Million to 2 Billion.  

The cost was projected to be 1.2B, so a combination of 200 from city of Atlanta, 850m in a loan from 3 banks, 200m from the NFL in the form of an interest free loan and the remainder from new PSLs. Blank paid the overages which were mostly attributed to the roof. The state owns and operates the stadium and pays for the operations. Falcons and United play rent free.

On March 7, 2013, the Atlanta Falcons and the city of Atlanta agreed to build the new downtown stadium. The maximum public contribution for the project is US$200 million, coming from the hotel-motel tax in Atlanta and unincorporated Fulton County. The Atlanta City Council officially approved the stadium on March 19, 2013. The council voted, 11–4, in favor of the use of city hotel-motel taxes to pay US$200 million toward construction costs and potentially several times that toward costs of financing, maintaining and operating the stadium through 2050.^[36] On May 21, 2013, the NFL approved a US$200 million loan to the Falcons organization for the purpose of building the stadium.^[37]

 

 

[Hushpuppy321]

2 minutes ago, CarolinaDaydreamin said:

The cost was projected to be 1.2B, so a combination of 200 from city of Atlanta, 850m in a loan from 3 banks, 200m from the NFL in the form of an interest free loan and the remainder from new PSLs. Blank paid the overages which were mostly attributed to the roof. The state owns and operates the stadium and pays for the operations. Falcons and United play rent free.

On March 7, 2013, the Atlanta Falcons and the city of Atlanta agreed to build the new downtown stadium. The maximum public contribution for the project is US$200 million, coming from the hotel-motel tax in Atlanta and unincorporated Fulton County. The Atlanta City Council officially approved the stadium on March 19, 2013. The council voted, 11–4, in favor of the use of city hotel-motel taxes to pay US$200 million toward construction costs and potentially several times that toward costs of financing, maintaining and operating the stadium through 2050.^[36] On May 21, 2013, the NFL approved a US$200 million loan to the Falcons organization for the purpose of building the stadium.^[37]

 

 

Damn that’s nice.  Seems like Arthur Blank was in the right place at the right time.  Everything Tepper wants to do just seems like it’s much more expensive because of how late he’s in to the game.

MLS - Possibly 300 Million

NFL - 2 Billion

I do support his goals and vision as they are exciting but I can’t imagine that this region much less Charlotte/Mecklenburg County alone can  pay what’ll be needed 10 years from now with all the other needs like housing and transit.  I don’t expect anything from the republican legislature in Raleigh. 

[kermit]

2 hours ago, CarolinaDaydreamin said:

The cost was projected to be 1.2B, so a combination of 200 from city of Atlanta, 850m in a loan from 3 banks, 200m from the NFL in the form of an interest free loan and the remainder from new PSLs. Blank paid the overages which were mostly attributed to the roof. The state owns and operates the stadium and pays for the operations. Falcons and United play rent free.

On March 7, 2013, the Atlanta Falcons and the city of Atlanta agreed to build the new downtown stadium. The maximum public contribution for the project is US$200 million, coming from the hotel-motel tax in Atlanta and unincorporated Fulton County. The Atlanta City Council officially approved the stadium on March 19, 2013. The council voted, 11–4, in favor of the use of city hotel-motel taxes to pay US$200 million toward construction costs and potentially several times that toward costs of financing, maintaining and operating the stadium through 2050.^[36] On May 21, 2013, the NFL approved a US$200 million loan to the Falcons organization for the purpose of building the stadium.^[37]

Hold on. That $850 million loan wasn’t money that fell from the sky, it’s gotta be paid back. It sounds like some agency of the state was the borrower and have pledged to make payments from revenue generated from non Falcons-United events? I would assume the state is ultimately on the hook to repay that money regardless of the available revenue stream.

The current batch of Raleigh politicians have made it known that they are not interested in contributing to a Charlotte stadium facility.

TLDR: your description makes it sound like  taxpayers are on the hook for $1.05 billion (plus interest) for MB stadium. 

Edited November 27, 2019 by kermit

[Madison Parkitect]

No, I think Blank was the borrower on those loans, not the state. Right?

[cltbwimob]

3 hours ago, CarolinaDaydreamin said:

Your figures are hyperbolic. Atlanta just contributed 200m for the Mercedes Benz Stadium. There is no way Meck is in the 1B area.

200m to Tepper for renovations for soccer and MLS is worth it, the $ would come out of taxes that are contributed by visitors not the local tax payer and the impact of MLS could be substantial. Atlanta United has more visitors per year for 17 MLS games than the Falcons do for 10 NFL games.

Are my figures really hyperbolic?

Allegiant Stadium, Las Vegas Raiders: $750 mil in tax money on a $1.9 bil stadium-39.5% public funding

U.S. Bank Stadium, Minnesota Vikings: $498 mil in taxpayer funds on a $1.1 bil stadium that doesn’t even have a retractable roof like Tepper wants- 45.3% public funding

Carolina Panthers Practice Facility: $115 mil In taxpayer funds ($155 mil if the dedicated interchange is thrown into the picture) of $315 mil investment-36.5%-43.7% public funding depending on whether or not you count the interchange 

Tepper MLS Team+HQ+ BofA Soccer Renovations: $100-$200 mil (est) taxpayer funds on a $325-$425 mil (est) investment-23.5%-61.5% estimated public contribution

Which one of these numbers suggests that a) the public contribution to football stadiums isn’t typically 40%-50% or that b) Tepper won’t ask for a 40%-50% contribution?  And with the Mercedes-Benz Dome in Atlanta being a $1.6 billion dollar stadium and Allegiant Stadium in Las Vegas being a $1.9 billion dollar stadium in today’s dollars, what makes you think that the cost to build a new stadium 10 years down the road will not cost in excess of $2 billion?  So with the average cost of new football stadiums approaching $2 billion dollars today (not including cost escalations over the next ten years), the average public contribution to a stadium being somewhere in the 40%-50% range and the average estimated ask from Tepper, based on the new Panthers HQ figures and the estimated figures for his MLS HQ being roughly 40%, can you explain why my numbers hyperbolic?  40% of $2 billion is $800 million is it not?  Add that to the $115 mil-$155mil he will receive from S.C. plus the estimated $100mil to $200 mil for MLS/BofA improvements he’s asking for and you get a figure of nearly $1.2 billion in public funding, approximately $1 billion of which comes from Char-Meck.

But lets just assume, even though a Tepper has already indicated that he will ask for up to $300+ million in public funding, before even making an ask for the stadium, that he does only ask for $200mil for a new stadium.  Is the incremental benefit worth the cost?  Again, a retractable roof stadium or dome is not needed for major concerts otherwise Billy Joel and Garth Brooks wouldn’t be coming.  BofA already hosts the   Panthers and will, assuming we get awarded an MLS team, be host to that as well.  So a new stadium is not needed to incentivize a new team to locate here.  So the only additional benefit we get with a new stadium is really the marquee games such as the Super Bowl and Final Four.  But we wouldn’t get those every year.  Heck if we got 2 Super Bowls, 2 Final Fours, and 2 CFB playoffs over the life of the new stadium we’d probably be lucky.  Is that worth $200 mil in taxpayer investment considering that we would in theory already have the NFL plus MLS, and could host great concerts in BofA?  Is it worth it considering we will have already spent more than that on HQs, practice facilities, and additional renovations to BofA?

As for the tourism tax, only certain parts of that tax can be used for stadiums and there are a ton of other liabilities to be funded with that tax including Convention Center, Discovery Place, NASCAR HOF, Memorial Stadium, etc.  In fact it’s estimated that the tourism tax as it stands would only allow for $75 million dollars for renovations to the current stadium which means that either a) they will have to raise the tax significantly to fund a new stadium, or b) stadium funding will go to a bond referendum.  Since the NCGA has already balked at raising the tourism tax for the Panthers a few years ago and the NCGA is still controlled by many of the same legislators in place when the first renovations to BofA were being negotiated, that option is likely off the table, leaving option “b”, a bond referendum paid for Mecklenburg County residents if it passes.

Edited November 27, 2019 by cltbwimob

[CarolinaDaydreamin]

On 11/27/2019 at 1:04 PM, Madison Parkitect said:

No, I think Blank was the borrower on those loans, not the state. Right?

It is the Falcons who are on the hook for the financing.

https://www.ajc.com/sports/football/falcons-secure-850m-stadium-financing/1hh8Aj1ni6jnAC6I2ZiluL/

[CarolinaDaydreamin]

Can anyone confirm MLS has requested Tryon to be closed on the 16th or 17th?

[Madison Parkitect]

35 minutes ago, CarolinaDaydreamin said:

Can anyone confirm MLS has requested Tryon to be closed on the 16th or 17th?

Someone mentioned on Twitter that they're hearing that, but no official confirmation. Tepper and Glick are confirmed to be at the MLS meetings today.

[Blakcatfan]

On 11/29/2019 at 1:04 AM, CarolinaDaydreamin said:

It is the Falcons who are on the hook for the financing.

https://www.ajc.com/sports/football/falcons-secure-850m-stadium-financing/1hh8Aj1ni6jnAC6I2ZiluL/

The Falcons got the loan but contract language provides Blank with future hotel tax revenue from the city totaling over $700M (present value of future money), plus other infrastructure and tax rebates.  Total taxpayer investment was closer to $750M of the total $1.6B it actually ended up costing.   

 

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2017/sep/29/why-are-georgia-taxpayers-paying-700m-for-a-new-nfl-stadium

[SydneyCarton]

This looks promising.  It will give me further reasons to return to the QC more frequently.
 

https://www.charlotteobserver.com/sports/article238069039.html

Edited December 6, 2019 by SydneyCarton

[Jasons0013]

This sounds like it could be interesting.

 

[King of the Queen City]

What are we getting for $110M?

- Stadium renovations for MLS team

- Eastland redevelopment

- Entertainment district development

- Connection to Gateway Station

Yeah, we’re spending more than other cities, but we’re also getting more than other cities.

[navigator319]

 

1 hour ago, Jasons0013 said:

This sounds like it could be interesting.

 

 

Then he should buy Circa and bulldoze the POS otherwise will never be true.  Or better yet the city use eminent domain to take it.  Its practically blight anyway along with the The Mint 

Edited December 17, 2019 by navigator319

[Hushpuppy321]

43 minutes ago, King of the Queen City said:

What are we getting for $110M?

- Stadium renovations for MLS team

- Eastland redevelopment

- Entertainment district development

- Connection to Gateway Station

Yeah, we’re spending more than other cities, but we’re also getting more than other cities.

I second that notion.  If this is done right - the City can benefit greatly.  MLS Team HQ could be the catalyst for Eastland Redevelopment.   Connection with Gateway/establishing an Entertainment District would be great but I’m not sure what the city could do to encourage this or if Tepper plans to become a developer as well as Sports team owner.

Edited December 17, 2019 by Hushpuppy321

[go_vertical]

I wouldn't be surprised to see the first couple of pieces of this entertainment district go right where that massive deck is.