Carolina Panthers Facilities

[JRCLT]

Please, at least put the article title in your post so those of us that don't subscribe understand why the hell the post is made in the first place.  

It’s just about the rezoning of Charlotte Pipe and Foundry and how it passed unanimously through city council. They stated “with no discussion” the read was honestly hard to follow at that point. I am probably missing something there to understand what they were writing about.

[InSouthPark]

48 minutes ago, JeanClt said:

It’s just about the rezoning of Charlotte Pipe and Foundry and how it passed unanimously through city council. They stated “with no discussion” the read was honestly hard to follow at that point. I am probably missing something there to understand what they were writing about.

They want clicks to show the city is bending to Tepper.  That gets people riled up.   When in reality: the city staff all recommended the rezoning (for pipe and foundary...not Tepper).  As it has been stated...city council has rejected about 2 re-zoning cases via a vote in the past however many years.  If it's up for a vote...and city planning staff recommends it...it gets passed.   But that doesn't sell news clicks.  There was no controversy here.  Its a general industry area.  Did they think people are going to be up in arms that a huge industrial pipe plant is going to be replaced by mixed use? LOL. 

The community meeting had 13 participants and 2 questions.   https://charlottenc.gov/planning/Rezoning/RezoningPetitions/2021Petitions/Documents/Community_Meeting_Reports/2021_033_CMR.pdf

[go_vertical]

Yeah, it's not like the land was going to remain zoned for heavy industrial use after Charlotte Pipe was gone and soil remediation was complete.  Rezoning was a given the second they announced they were vacating the land. 

[videtur quam contuor]

this is from Sam Spencer who is on Planning Commission:

https://twitter.com/choosesam/status/1473053006581145606

Here is all we got for the site plan

Area outlined and identified as site A and site B. That is it. Is that enough information for a planning decision?

Note: Sam was also critical of the Truist sign application which showed outline of signage considered but not rendering of sign on building or any representation of the impact. He voted no. It was approved.

[jjwilli]

I would agree with Sam on this. This rezoning definitely needed a few more public meetings and discussions. The conversion from Industrial to UMUD is a slam dunk and makes perfect sense. It’s all the “extras” that should have been discussed more openly and in greater detail. 10+acres preserved for roadway re-configurations and only 1 acre for public space? We can do better than that. There’s also numerous road capacity additions that are not clearly spelled out in the petition what they are and their impact on the area. I’d sure love to know what the Freedom Drive Ramp 30% design commitment is exactly for and how that may impact the area. This isn’t just a simple rezoning, it commits millions of dollars into primarily roadway improvements. Not saying that’s a good or bad thing, just worthy of more discussion.

 

 

[TheRealClayton]

13 hours ago, jjwilli said:

I would agree with Sam on this. This rezoning definitely needed a few more public meetings and discussions. The conversion from Industrial to UMUD is a slam dunk and makes perfect sense. It’s all the “extras” that should have been discussed more openly and in greater detail. 10+acres preserved for roadway re-configurations and only 1 acre for public space? We can do better than that. There’s also numerous road capacity additions that are not clearly spelled out in the petition what they are and their impact on the area. I’d sure love to know what the Freedom Drive Ramp 30% design commitment is exactly for and how that may impact the area. This isn’t just a simple rezoning, it commits millions of dollars into primarily roadway improvements. Not saying that’s a good or bad thing, just worthy of more discussion.

 

 

Freedom Drive Ramp: I would imagine its to move 65,000 people out of the area quickly (I hear that's the target size for a new stadium.) I would imagine you get an Atlantic Station style development adjacent to a stadium with an ass ton of underground parking beneath the development. 

Edited December 22, 2021 by TheRealClayton

[InSouthPark]

It's going to be quite something when plans start coming out.  When is the Pipe and Foundry in Oakville supposed to be up and running?  Last I can find is 2023.  

I would have to think some sort of legal agreement is in place for Tepper to buy the property when they vacate or a buy and lease back until they move?   If he is already buying up property, I'm sure the master plans are already in place.   Oh to be a design and architect firm!

[JRCLT]

I would agree with Sam on this. This rezoning definitely needed a few more public meetings and discussions. The conversion from Industrial to UMUD is a slam dunk and makes perfect sense. It’s all the “extras” that should have been discussed more openly and in greater detail. 10+acres preserved for roadway re-configurations and only 1 acre for public space? We can do better than that. There’s also numerous road capacity additions that are not clearly spelled out in the petition what they are and their impact on the area. I’d sure love to know what the Freedom Drive Ramp 30% design commitment is exactly for and how that may impact the area. This isn’t just a simple rezoning, it commits millions of dollars into primarily roadway improvements. Not saying that’s a good or bad thing, just worthy of more discussion.
http://content.invisioncic.com/x329420/monthly_2021_12/4F142547-49D9-47A2-955B-5B0B2F7AEDCE.thumb.jpeg.74ecdc9d2d2662699a57a4bb8746580c.jpeg
 
 

1 acre is minimum depending on the development it could be higher. If i read it correctly.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[ArchiCLT]

1 hour ago, InSouthPark said:

It's going to be quite something when plans start coming out.  When is the Pipe and Foundry in Oakville supposed to be up and running?  Last I can find is 2023.  

 

CP&F Oakboro is supposed to be operational by the spring of 2023. I wouldn't imagine the Charlotte foundry will be completely vacated until at least fall/winter 2023. 

1 hour ago, InSouthPark said:

Oh to be a design and architect firm!

I'm an architect on the Oakboro project. It broke ground June of last year. https://wgmdesign.com/charlotte-pipe-foundry-oakboro/

[SouthernSkyline]

Uh oh…

https://www.heraldonline.com/sports/article259156918.html

[CLT Development]

1 hour ago, SouthernSkyline said:

Uh oh…

https://www.heraldonline.com/sports/article259156918.html

its whatever, check out my responses in the Pipe & Foundry thread

[kermit]

Damn, Tepper don't play.

Quote

A York County councilman told CBJ on Tuesday he believes the Carolina Panthers have permanently abandoned their unfinished headquarters project and will instead seek to recoup their expenses from the city of Rock Hill.

...

Roddey went on to say, “I don’t think they’re going to accept it,” referring to the revised infrastructure funding backed by York County and the city of Rock Hill in recent weeks. 

https://www.bizjournals.com/charlotte/news/2022/04/05/month-after-panthers-pause-hq-project-still-stuck.html

Wonder whats next for this facility?

Edited April 5, 2022 by kermit

[SouthEndCLT811]

Can't wait for his extortion to hit Charlotte/NC/Mecklenburg county 

[atlrvr]

He tried to drive down there at 5:30 one afternoon in March and realized it was 2 hours instead of 15 min like it was before COVID ended.

 

[deleted account]

Tepper may have every right to the money based on the original signed deal. But, he is the richest owner in the NFL and MLS. His wealth has increased significantly in the last two years based on this article:

https://www.charlotteobserver.com/sports/nfl/carolina-panthers/article260130220.html#storylink=mainstage_card6

He should build his own damn facilities (especially considering how pathetic his team has performed under his ownership). 

That said, he will 100% finish this project. Please Rock Hill, call his bluff! Don't let this A-hole "Bruton Smith" your city...he will NOT walk away from this project no matter what this idiot councilman says. 

PS I have a saying in business, don't threaten me, just do it. Sometimes they do, usually they don't. 

Edited April 5, 2022 by JBS

[deleted account]

2 hours ago, kermit said:

Damn, Tepper don't play.

https://www.bizjournals.com/charlotte/news/2022/04/05/month-after-panthers-pause-hq-project-still-stuck.html

Wonder whats next for this facility?

It gets built...what else? 

[kermit]

50 minutes ago, JBS said:

It gets built...what else? 

I dunno what is going to happen but Tepper has a reputation that indicates he is very willing to walk away at a loss just to make a point.

I hope the city of Charlotte sees that they have a much stronger hand in the new stadium negotiations now.

Edit: the plot thickens... (this is a new story from the CBJ featuring comments from a state senator, the first article quoted a York County councilperson)

Quote

A South Carolina lawmaker who backed the state’s incentives package for the Carolina Panthers blasted team owner David Tepper on Tuesday for stopping construction on a new headquarters in Rock Hill and declining to speak publicly on the matter.

State Sen. Wes Climer, a York Republican whose district includes the headquarters site, told CBJ he believes the city of Rock Hill and York County have made a reasonable offer to fulfill commitments for $225 million worth of infrastructure promised to Panthers’ parent company Tepper Sports & Entertainment. 

... "David Tepper came to Rock Hill promising us Jerry Jones and ever since then he’s given us Dan Snyder.”

...The state senator went on to wonder aloud whether governors in New York, Tennessee, and Virginia — states that have approved or are considering the use of taxpayer funds to help NFL teams build new stadiums — and others will view Tepper’s behavior as a deterrent to approving public money for football-related projects."

I genuinely do not understand how the NFL has not intervened with him to bring reason into this equation,” Climer added. “This haphazard, unserious approach to a very serious issue is sullying the reputation of the league as an entity that someone would want to engage with in a business relationship.”

 

https://www.bizjournals.com/charlotte/news/2022/04/05/sc-state-senator-rips-panthers-owners.html

Edited April 5, 2022 by kermit

[KJHburg]

after reading these articles I hope Mr Tepper is not one of these owners who says I will move this team out of the market if I don't get my way.  I would have never thought this before but now I think it is a small possibility.  They are plenty of NFL hungry cities in the country and few around the world.  I understand it sounds like Rock Hill did not do what they said they were going to do but they have proposed an alternative.  the state has done what they said they were going to do and the interchange on I-77 is still under construction.   Honestly what is Mr Tepper's loyalty to this market?  

Hopefully this project gets back on track and does not get bogged down in litigation.  Because he still will not have a first class training facility and it will be longer in the future if these delays persist.  

[deleted account]

2 hours ago, KJHburg said:

after reading these articles I hope Mr Tepper is not one of these owners who says I will move this team out of the market if I don't get my way.  I would have never thought this before but now I think it is a small possibility.  They are plenty of NFL hungry cities in the country and few around the world.  I understand it sounds like Rock Hill did not do what they said they were going to do but they have proposed an alternative.  the state has done what they said they were going to do and the interchange on I-77 is still under construction.   Honestly what is Mr Tepper's loyalty to this market?  

Hopefully this project gets back on track and does not get bogged down in litigation.  Because he still will not have a first class training facility and it will be longer in the future if these delays persist.  

Zero chance this team moves, for the following reasons:

1. They are regularly top 7 in attendance and typically sell out 98℅+ in one of the largest NFL stadiums

2. Charlotte is a rapidly growing city 

3. He now owns an MLS team playing in the same stadium

4. He would need permission from two leagues to move and that could literally take a decade to get NFL permission (he couldn't keep MLS here if Panthers move, he would be persona non grata) 

5. Where could he move that would be more desirable/profitable? 

6. Charlotte City Council has already shown a willingness to roll over for this guy

7. He has already invested way too much time, money and ego into Rock Hill, that complex will be finished

Frankly, I'm surprised that smart and savvy people think this is even a remote possibility. This isn't tearing down a house to build an FU house. He will never move these teams because it would cost him too much. He's being a bully and someone should put him in his place. 

Edited April 6, 2022 by JBS

[NYtoCLT]

6 hours ago, JBS said:

Tepper may have every right to the money based on the original signed deal. But, he is the richest owner in the NFL and MLS. His wealth has increased significantly in the last two years based on this article:

https://www.charlotteobserver.com/sports/nfl/carolina-panthers/article260130220.html#storylink=mainstage_card6

He should build his own damn facilities (especially considering how pathetic his team has performed under his ownership). 

That said, he will 100% finish this project. Please Rock Hill, call his bluff! Don't let this A-hole "Bruton Smith" your city...he will NOT walk away from this project no matter what this idiot councilman says. 

PS I have a saying in business, don't threaten me, just do it. Sometimes they do, usually they don't. 

I normally think Billionaires should build their own stadiums but Fort Mill agreed to a deal and then re-negged.  Tepper is 100% in the right to stop construction.  They pulled out of the deal for no reason even though they were contractually obligated.  Just like I don't think billionaires should get special treatment, I also don't think they should get worse treatment.  Honor the contract.  

 

On the bright side, I cant imagine there is any chance that any MLS practice facility goes anywhere except Mecklenburg county now.   Disappointing one hasn't been announced yet but I imagine this unfortunate situation likely has been playing a role.

[deleted account]

1 hour ago, NYtoCLT said:

I normally think Billionaires should build their own stadiums but Fort Mill agreed to a deal and then re-negged.  Tepper is 100% in the right to stop construction.  They pulled out of the deal for no reason even though they were contractually obligated.  Just like I don't think billionaires should get special treatment, I also don't think they should get worse treatment.  Honor the contract.  

 

On the bright side, I cant imagine there is any chance that any MLS practice facility goes anywhere except Mecklenburg county now.   Disappointing one hasn't been announced yet but I imagine this unfortunate situation likely has been playing a role.

They didn't renege, they stupidly overextended themselves and can't issue the bonds as originally hoped. They are offering tax offsets that are apparently the equivalent of their financial obligation and Tepper is refusing that alternative. I'm not saying Tepper doesn't have a right to expect the city to uphold their end of the deal. I'm saying that, as rich as he is, he can work with the city and offer some flexibility. More to the point, the city has a ton of leverage based on how much has already been completed on the project. And if Tepper really plays hardball, he risks alienating fans (see George Shinn). 

I suspect the MLS practice facility will also be in Rock Hill. 

Edited April 6, 2022 by JBS

[HopHead]

8 hours ago, NYtoCLT said:

I normally think Billionaires should build their own stadiums but Fort Mill agreed to a deal and then re-negged.  Tepper is 100% in the right to stop construction.  They pulled out of the deal for no reason even though they were contractually obligated.  Just like I don't think billionaires should get special treatment, I also don't think they should get worse treatment.  Honor the contract.  

 

On the bright side, I cant imagine there is any chance that any MLS practice facility goes anywhere except Mecklenburg county now.   Disappointing one hasn't been announced yet but I imagine this unfortunate situation likely has been playing a role.

*Rock Hill... not Fort Mill. Don't drag Fort Thrill into this lol

[atlrvr]

I'm not super informed here, but wouldn't there be a significant difference in how the money is paid to Tepper?  In a bond, they give him the reimbursement up front from cash raised from the bond sale.  This alternative, reducing taxes over a long period like 20-30 years seems far less attractive, unless I'm missing something fundamental.

All that said, while Tepper appears to be in the legal right, and maybe even the ethical right (he held up his end while the city failed to), it sometimes seems that really successful people treat vanity purchases as a rationale business, which seems counter-intuitive, because the long term value is the "good will", rather than contracts.

[DMann]

I believe in honoring contracts.  They are something both parties agreed to up front.

[KJHburg]

10 hours ago, JBS said:

 

Frankly, I'm surprised that smart and savvy people think this is even a remote possibility. This isn't tearing down a house to build an FU house. He will never move these teams because it would cost him too much. He's being a bully and someone should put him in his place. 

I would not say zero percent chance.  I do think they will work through the problems in Rock Hill and like you said the MLS is a major anchor here.  But he can threaten.  I vividly remember the whole Charlotte Hornets move to New Orleans and then we were rewarded a new team again.  San Diego lost their team to LA and Oakland lost their team to Vegas.  I know stadium issues were forefront but don't say never.   Mr Tepper has said his groundwork for a new stadium would be 1/3 taxpayers, 1/3 PSL owners, 1/3 himself.   Lets hope he sticks to that.