Carolina Panthers Facilities

[kayman]

19 minutes ago, KJHburg said:

I would not say zero percent chance.  I do think they will work through the problems in Rock Hill and like you said the MLS is a major anchor here.  But he can threaten.  I vividly remember the whole Charlotte Hornets move to New Orleans and then we were rewarded a new team again.  San Diego lost their team to LA and Oakland lost their team to Vegas.  I know stadium issues were forefront but don't say never.   Mr Tepper has said his groundwork for a new stadium would be 1/3 taxpayers, 1/3 PSL owners, 1/3 himself.   Lets hope he sticks to that.  

The NFL doesn't have the popularity of the Millennials and GenZ adults like they do with the Babyboomers and GenX adults.  Also the likelihood of this fallout with Rock Hill has nothing to do with the Panthers remaining in the Charlotte market. 

If this situation with Rock Hill has shown is that the Panther HQs in Rock Hill should never even been considered.  This was a poor attempt by South Carolina trying to one-up North Carolina on economic development and overplayed their own hand. Tepper is vested here, so if the deal falls through the HQs will be back in Charlotte. Furthermore, Charlotte is too attractive to the NFL due to the demographic market area (DMA) size, location, economics, and rapid population growth. 

I also believe the Charlotte FC HQs and practicing facility will be in Charlotte as well. Especially after the comments of the South Carolina GOP state senator trying to play fake woke with this poor written and spoken rhetoric.  Charlotte doesn't need South Carolina but South Carolina does need Charlotte...

[DownEast]

1 hour ago, HopHead said:

*Rock Hill... not Fort Mill. Don't drag Fort Thrill into this lol

[joenc]

This has nothing to do with Charlotte, this is a suburb in another state, like 10% of our MSA population. Maybe we can get the name changed to Charlotte Panthers.

It is a bad look for that part of SC. Should make business think before considering locating in York County vs Mecklenburg.

 

 

Edited April 6, 2022 by joenc

[kermit]

7 minutes ago, joenc said:

It is a bad look for that part of SC. Should make business think before considering locating in York County vs Mecklenburg.

Absolutely. And its good news for Charlotte since Tepper can no longer credibly threaten to take the new stadium to SC when he is negotiating. 

Edited April 6, 2022 by kermit

[deleted account]

3 minutes ago, kayman said:

The NFL doesn't have the popularity of the Millennials and GenZ adults like they do with the Babyboomers and GenX adults.  Also the likelihood of this fallout with Rock Hill has nothing to do with the Panthers remaining in the Charlotte market. 

If this situation with Rock Hill has shown is that the Panther HQs in Rock Hill should never even been considered.  This was a poor attempt by South Carolina trying to one-up North Carolina on economic development and overplayed their own hand. Tepper is vested here, so if the deal falls through the HQs will be back in Charlotte. Furthermore, Charlotte is too attractive to the NFL due to the demographic market area (DMA) size, location, economics, and rapid population growth. 

I also believe the Charlotte FC HQs and practicing facility will be in Charlotte as well. Especially after the comments of the South Carolina GOP state senator trying to play fake woke with this poor written and spoken rhetoric.  Charlotte doesn't need South Carolina but South Carolina does need Charlotte...

I'm thrilled that the HQ is being built in SC. It's better for the team's appeal to more fans and it saved NC/Charlotte money we can use for the stadium. Similarly, I hope the soccer headquarters are also in Rock Hill. I totally agree that the NFL team is not moving. 

Again, there is no chance he walks away from this to start over somewhere else. If he did, he'd have no leverage for negotiations and be understands there is a finite bucket of money in Charlotte for anything Panthers related. Plus, he'd look ridiculous in league circles (even more than his hiring of the disheveled and incompetent Rhule). 

 

1 hour ago, atlrvr said:

I'm not super informed here, but wouldn't there be a significant difference in how the money is paid to Tepper?  In a bond, they give him the reimbursement up front from cash raised from the bond sale.  This alternative, reducing taxes over a long period like 20-30 years seems far less attractive, unless I'm missing something fundamental.

All that said, while Tepper appears to be in the legal right, and maybe even the ethical right (he held up his end while the city failed to), it sometimes seems that really successful people treat vanity purchases as a rationale business, which seems counter-intuitive, because the long term value is the "good will", rather than contracts.

You are correct on all points. He'll get his money but over a much longer period of time (which is why he is refusing that deal). 

[atlrvr]

I wish that random guy in the background wearing blue shirt and backpack was our coach instead of Matt Rhule. (no blue font).

[deleted account]

8 minutes ago, atlrvr said:

I wish that random guy in the background wearing blue shirt and backpack was our coach instead of Matt Rhule. (no blue font).

At least we don't have the guy with the see-through shirt and the wife-beater... 

[InSouthPark]

17 hours ago, JBS said:

That said, he will 100% finish this project. Please Rock Hill, call his bluff! Don't let this A-hole "Bruton Smith" your city...he will NOT walk away from this project no matter what this idiot councilman says. 

PS I have a saying in business, don't threaten me, just do it. Sometimes they do, usually they don't. 

He spent 40 million to buy his old bosses house so he could bulldoze it  and build a 3x bigger house just because he didn't like the guy.

Facility wise...I doubt he has much more than 100mil in costs he can't recoup by tearing the building down and selling the property off as he sees fit.  Sure they may have put 200+mil into the project already...but the majority of that is infrastructure that the next developer could use.

The man has a net worth of 16bil...probably earning an average of 20mil a month in dividends in his portfolio.   So even a 160million dollar loss is 1% of his net worth.   Not sure about y'all...but my 401k moves that much pretty much every day. LOL.  If he wants to walk, its merely a blip on his radar and will make the money back with one simple trade.

[Mid South NC]

2 hours ago, kayman said:

The NFL doesn't have the popularity of the Millennials and GenZ adults like they do with the Babyboomers and GenX adults.  Also the likelihood of this fallout with Rock Hill has nothing to do with the Panthers remaining in the Charlotte market. 

If this situation with Rock Hill has shown is that the Panther HQs in Rock Hill should never even been considered.  This was a poor attempt by South Carolina trying to one-up North Carolina on economic development and overplayed their own hand. Tepper is vested here, so if the deal falls through the HQs will be back in Charlotte. Furthermore, Charlotte is too attractive to the NFL due to the demographic market area (DMA) size, location, economics, and rapid population growth. 

I also believe the Charlotte FC HQs and practicing facility will be in Charlotte as well. Especially after the comments of the South Carolina GOP state senator trying to play fake woke with this poor written and spoken rhetoric.  Charlotte doesn't need South Carolina but South Carolina does need Charlotte...

Thanks for the post@kayman

What you said here is absolutely correct, and they clearly over leveraged themselves in the process. This is what they describe as "writing checks your @$$ nor anyone else can cash."
 

As Charlotte sits here with popcorn in hand watching the drama unfold.  

Edited April 6, 2022 by Mid South NC

[NYtoCLT]

As far as the team moving, the practice facility is materially different than the stadium in both importance and cost.  

I can't imagine Tepper moving the team because of practice facility drama in south carolina.  If the stadium became an issue in Meck that could be a different story.

[Reverie39]

Tepper having contract issues with Rock Hill leading up to him approving a reach and contract offer to Kenny Pickett will be poetry. We're 100% taking him.

That said if the Panthers leave town I will cry, then throw up, then cry again.

[deleted account]

1 hour ago, InSouthPark said:

He spent 40 million to buy his old bosses house so he could bulldoze it  and build a 3x bigger house just because he didn't like the guy.

Facility wise...I doubt he has much more than 100mil in costs he can't recoup by tearing the building down and selling the property off as he sees fit.  Sure they may have put 200+mil into the project already...but the majority of that is infrastructure that the next developer could use.

The man has a net worth of 16bil...probably earning an average of 20mil a month in dividends in his portfolio.   So even a 160million dollar loss is 1% of his net worth.   Not sure about y'all...but my 401k moves that much pretty much every day. LOL.  If he wants to walk, its merely a blip on his radar and will make the money back with one simple trade.

What's his option for a practice facility and headquarters if he doesn't complete this project? You think there is a suitable tract of land in NC and that he'll get more from them (plus money for a stadium)? Again, there is zero chance this will not get done and I GUARANTEE work will resume before April ends. If not, I'll delete my account and you'll never hear from me again (that's the best deal I can offer you, I'm not meeting anyone to buy them lunch). 

[kermit]

27 minutes ago, JBS said:

What's his option for a practice facility and headquarters if he doesn't complete this project? You think there is a suitable tract of land in NC and that he'll get more from them (plus money for a stadium)?

I dunno, there are quite a few tracts in Gaston county (as far as Kings Mountain) that are just as accessible to Charlotte. Something makes me think Gaston County government would be very enthusiastic about hosting and a Catawba casino partnership also seems potentially fruitful.  (not saying that it will happen, just that I think Tepper sees lots of options)

Edited April 6, 2022 by kermit

[InSouthPark]

10 minutes ago, kermit said:

I dunno, there are quite a few tracts in Gaston county (as far as Kings Mountain) that are just as accessible to Charlotte. Something makes me think Gaston County government would be very enthusiastic about hosting and a Catawba casino partnership also seems potentially fruitful.  (not saying that it will happen, just that I think Tepper sees lots of options)

hell he could partner with Riverside.  There is nothing but land out there.  Not the I-77 visibility he wants but still visible to 485 AND would make a lot more sense commute-wise for players and personnel.

[sclark]

Is there a way to combine all the Panthers facilities / offices  w/ a new stadium at the Pipe + Foundry site? Seems like that could make lots of sense, but maybe I'm missing something?

[kermit]

2 minutes ago, sclark said:

Is there a way to combine all the Panthers facilities / offices  w/ a new stadium at the Pipe + Foundry site? Seems like that could make lots of sense, but maybe I'm missing something?

Large, mostly unused, fields and parking lots are generally bad for urbanism.

[stw52]

8 minutes ago, sclark said:

Is there a way to combine all the Panthers facilities / offices  w/ a new stadium at the Pipe + Foundry site? Seems like that could make lots of sense, but maybe I'm missing something?

I would guess it would be a very expensive place to have training fields. 

[DownEast]

12 minutes ago, sclark said:

Is there a way to combine all the Panthers facilities / offices  w/ a new stadium at the Pipe + Foundry site? Seems like that could make lots of sense, but maybe I'm missing something?

Training facilities are usually in far flung suburbs 30-50 miles from the stadium. Not sure why. Just seems to be the pattern. 

[Matthew.Brendan]

Where was the Panthers old training facility?

[kermit]

2 minutes ago, Matthew.Brendan said:

Where was the Panthers old training facility?

My apologies if this was rhetorical

[Matthew.Brendan]

Ok, I thought so..... so what am I missing? I'm sure the Rock Hill location is much larger, but what was 'wrong' with the existing facility?

[kermit]

10 minutes ago, Matthew.Brendan said:

Ok, I thought so..... so what am I missing? I'm sure the Rock Hill location is much larger, but what was 'wrong' with the existing facility?

• The parcel (which is city owned but Panther leased) now has a high value as an entertainment facility  [The parcel is a former scrapyard and was only partially remediated, I don't believe housing can be built on the site due to contamination]
• The 'facility' (basically just a field and a fancy tent) is small and kinda dated
• It relies on facilities in the stadium (so players generally walk between)
• There is no room to develop spectator opportunities
• There is no room for Tepper to develop surrounding real estate and create new office and facilities space for the Panthers

I am sure there are other things but basically Tepper wants to wring more revenue out of his investment and he also needs to update the practice facilities to compete for free agents (I am guessing).

Edited April 6, 2022 by kermit

[InSouthPark]

12 minutes ago, Matthew.Brendan said:

Ok, I thought so..... so what am I missing? I'm sure the Rock Hill location is much larger, but what was 'wrong' with the existing facility?

240 undeveloped acres vs 7 acres already developed.   

https://www.explorevikinglakes.com/

Google pics of their training center...and then look at ours.

 

[KJHburg]

from the Biz Journal this afternoon:

""David Tepper's fortune continues to grow — as does speculation about his moves in the region and frustration with his silence on those.  On the first point, Forbes magazine released its 2022 World's Billionaires List yesterday, pegging Tepper's net worth at $16.7 billion as of early March. That's up 15% from $14.5 billion at this time last year, when he landed at No. 142 on the 2021 list. He climbed to No. 103 on the latest installment of the worldwide list, which puts him at No. 8 among the richest sports owners around the globe.""

""And that could be a signal of things to come for the Queen City as talks get underway for a potential new stadium and related development in uptown, writes Mike Florio with NBCSports' Pro Football Talk:        Frankly, there’s a good chance Tepper is playing high-level hardball with Rock Hill as a shot across the bow at Charlotte. The hard bargain Tepper has chosen to drive in South Carolina could be a precursor to the hard bargain he’ll drive in North Carolina.""

https://www.bizjournals.com/charlotte/news/2022/04/06/cbj-morning-buzz-tepper-forbes-billionaires-list.html

[RANYC]

40 minutes ago, KJHburg said:

from the Biz Journal this afternoon:

""David Tepper's fortune continues to grow — as does speculation about his moves in the region and frustration with his silence on those.  On the first point, Forbes magazine released its 2022 World's Billionaires List yesterday, pegging Tepper's net worth at $16.7 billion as of early March. That's up 15% from $14.5 billion at this time last year, when he landed at No. 142 on the 2021 list. He climbed to No. 103 on the latest installment of the worldwide list, which puts him at No. 8 among the richest sports owners around the globe.""

""And that could be a signal of things to come for the Queen City as talks get underway for a potential new stadium and related development in uptown, writes Mike Florio with NBCSports' Pro Football Talk:        Frankly, there’s a good chance Tepper is playing high-level hardball with Rock Hill as a shot across the bow at Charlotte. The hard bargain Tepper has chosen to drive in South Carolina could be a precursor to the hard bargain he’ll drive in North Carolina.""

https://www.bizjournals.com/charlotte/news/2022/04/06/cbj-morning-buzz-tepper-forbes-billionaires-list.html

Is this really even hardball though?  I'm sure plenty on here are closer to what's happening on the Panthers HQ project, but from the small bit I've read so far, it appears Rock Hill has basically and grossly defaulted on its obligations, i.e. failed to fulfill its part in capitalizing this project, no?  You don't walk away from contract obligations because there's been a pandemic and cobble together a totally different timeline for your contribution by saying, "oh, we'll just rebate you taxes over X years now instead of a bond issuance which would have given you cash in early 2021."  Cash proceeds from a bond issuance to have been payable last year isn't anything close to Tepper fronting the money and waiting around for tax refunds in the future.  I'm just seeing the height of incompetence and bubba-ship coming out of SC.  You don't just totally restructure the timing of cash flows on a contract like this, mid-stream, and with a total lack of humility at that.

Edited April 6, 2022 by RANYC