cjd5050

New Panthers Stadium in 2022?

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So I searched for a Panthers and Stadium thread and didn't find one.  I think this is the most relatable thread.  

There is a story up on the Business Journal from Tuesday regarding the need for a new Panthers stadium in the near future.

City manager: Next Panthers stadium will need state, county help

The Carolina Panthers will need a new stadium in the not-too-distant future and interim city manager Ron Kimble said Tuesday that when that day arrives, a combination of local and state government funds are all but certain to be needed.

He made that observation during a discussion with CBJ about his tenure and what is next for the city before he retires. Talks about a new stadium, if and when they happen, will come well after his interim tenure ends, Kimble told me.

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Looking ahead, he noted the agreement with the Carolina Panthers at BofA Stadium runs through 2023. Whether another agreement is negotiated will be up to his successor, Kimble said. The so-called hard tether in the contract that prevents the NFL team from leaving expires in 2019, but less-restrictive terms call for the Panthers to play at the uptown stadium through the 2022 season.

The team owns the stadium. It opened in 1996 and, despite the renovations, Kimble acknowledged Tuesday that NFL venues have shorter lives than they once did.

As long as Jerry Richardson owns the Panthers, he added, the team is all but guaranteed to remain in Charlotte and in its present home.  Richardson turned 80 in July. His estate will sell the team within two years of his death.

 

So thinking about this over a 15 year window, which would put Richardson at 95, just what should Charlotte do with this situation?  Does it find a way to build a new stadium around the same area to keep the 'sports district' going or should it move the stadium out of uptown to try and create a new stadium district?  

Personally for me, as someone who was there for the before and after of Petco Park in San Diego, I would be in favor of moving the stadium somewhere NW of Uptown.  From what I can tell is it's mostly light industrial and a stadium could be the anchor needed to bridge the gap between NoDa and Uptown.  

This would also open up a massive amount of land in Uptown that could be used for more office/residential space that will be needed in the next 20 years.

 

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The team is established enough to not "need" to be uptown but I still think they will. That big plot of land off W Morehead would be where I would think it would go. It's mostly empty, huge visibility from 77/277, and they would still be able to utilize the existing practice facilities, while still remaining uptown. I would expect a new stadium by 2025, whether Jerry is still alive and kicking or not. I would bet he gets the ball moving on the new stadium just to make the new owners keep the team here (although I don't ever see that as an issue now that LA has a team). 

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I love the stadium's location. I think its location is among the best in the NFL and that, to me, will only improve as the city continues to grow around it. Tailgating lots will disappear, but entertainment districts around the city could fill that gap. I'd love to see the city / team hold a massive tailgate party in Romare Bearden park and designate specific streets for tailgating. 

If the city is planning on the team leaving the stadium in the next 7 years, they never should have given them money to renovate the current stadium IMO.

Fears of the team leaving are ridiculous. People need to get over the relocation fears. We  are not a small irrelevant market anymore. NC is the 9th most populated state in the U.S. and will only move farther up that list as time goes on. Do people really think anyone with a shred of business sense would move out of this market? Maybe outside the city limits, but they're not pulling a team out of the Carolinas. 

 

 

13 minutes ago, InSouthPark said:

The team is established enough to not "need" to be uptown but I still think they will. That big plot of land off W Morehead would be where I would think it would go. It's mostly empty, huge visibility from 77/277, and they would still be able to utilize the existing practice facilities, while still remaining uptown. I would expect a new stadium by 2025, whether Jerry is still alive and kicking or not. I would bet he gets the ball moving on the new stadium just to make the new owners keep the team here (although I don't ever see that as an issue now that LA has a team). 

The big plot of land that Charlotte Pipe is currently building a large storage facility on? I don't see that happening.

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7 minutes ago, Jayvee said:

Sorry about that.  I must have searched incorrectly.  

Mods - feel free to move or I can delete from this thread.  

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16 minutes ago, cjd5050 said:

Sorry about that.  I must have searched incorrectly.  

Mods - feel free to move or I can delete from this thread.  

All good. The search functionality sucks lol

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11 minutes ago, Jayvee said:

All good. The search functionality sucks lol

Should I repost in the other thread?  Think it's an interesting topic.

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4 hours ago, Niner National said:

I love the stadium's location. I think its location is among the best in the NFL and that, to me, will only improve as the city continues to grow around it. Tailgating lots will disappear, but entertainment districts around the city could fill that gap. I'd love to see the city / team hold a massive tailgate party in Romare Bearden park and designate specific streets for tailgating. 

If the city is planning on the team leaving the stadium in the next 7 years, they never should have given them money to renovate the current stadium IMO.

Fears of the team leaving are ridiculous. People need to get over the relocation fears. We  are not a small irrelevant market anymore. NC is the 9th most populated state in the U.S. and will only move farther up that list as time goes on. Do people really think anyone with a shred of business sense would move out of this market? Maybe outside the city limits, but they're not pulling a team out of the Carolinas. 

 

 

The big plot of land that Charlotte Pipe is currently building a large storage facility on? I don't see that happening.

Tailgating/fanfest in RB started a season or two ago.  It picked up big time last year.

As for leaving, St. Louis has a strong market, and JR is selling the team when he passes.  Those two variables are important to keep in mind.

The kind of minds that are in the bidding for major sports franchises are the kind of minds that want their own statues . . . 

Edited by alb1no panther

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The Browns were in Cleveland for 50 years and relocated due to stadium issues with the city. St Louis just left to go to LA. both were established markets and franchises in their own right. If new ownership purchases the franchise with no ties to Charlotte, there's no doubt that a stadium will be an issue to deal with. At some point in the not so distant future - we'll be held hostage to build a new stadium and there's no doubt Charlotte will do it. (I'm okay with it as well)

As far as locations, I'd say a stadium on the same site would be best and probably what would happen. we have enough college facilities in close proximity to support a temporary move.

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27 minutes ago, alb1no panther said:

The kind of minds that are in the bidding for major sports franchises are the kind of minds that want their own statues . . . 

I think it goes a bit beyond the ego of the owner...although that plays a huge part.  The Buffalo Bills were purchased for $1.4B.   Odds are the Panthers would go for more.  When someone forks out that kind of money they are going to want to see a return.  Revenue from a stadium is a big way of doing this.  

I also think a dome would help Charlotte land a Super Bowl if they stay the course with hotel construction.

 

Just now, mfowler12 said:

At some point in the not so distant future - we'll be held hostage to build a new stadium and there's no doubt Charlotte will do it. (I'm okay with it as well)

As far as locations, I'd say a stadium on the same site would be best and probably what would happen. we have enough college facilities in close proximity to support a temporary move.

I actually think moving it somewhere else could provide a better return for Charlotte.  

1 - It would open up a massive amount of land near the observer site, allowing that section of Uptown to continue to grow into a 24/7 destination.

2 - If placed close to Uptown and on the blue line, it could be a catalyst for better development.  By that I mean instead of stickbuild stock apartments you may see some towers around the stadium.  

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Back to the actual Observer site. I haven't been on that side of town for a few weeks, can any verify that the building is completely gone now?  I was surprised at how fast everything was moving on site with the demolition last time i was in town. 

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46 minutes ago, Higgs Boson said:

Yeah, I think just outside of Uptown would be cool.  I just hope they don't put the stadium in Fort Mill or something.

Brookhill at Tryon and Remount would be a great spot. But I'll move out of Charlotte if we have to subsidize a new stadium for a billionaire. 

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The stadium is in good shape in a great location with a fairly modern feel. We've continually sold it out even when we weren't good. Outside of more renovations there is no reason the city should be forking out cash for the panthers within the next 20 years. They have a great stadium and building a brand new dome just for a super bowl would never be worth it.

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On 9/8/2016 at 5:28 PM, DavieNative said:

The stadium is in good shape in a great location with a fairly modern feel. We've continually sold it out even when we weren't good. Outside of more renovations there is no reason the city should be forking out cash for the panthers within the next 20 years. They have a great stadium and building a brand new dome just for a super bowl would never be worth it.

Agree on your logic but can also see the perspective of a new owner.  It's eventually going to be an issue...sadly.  

The thing about the NFL is the way they do revenue sharing.  Each team does not have to share money from suites, club seating and sponsorship deals.  They do have to share regular ticket sales.  Dallas, for example, has 342 suites and 15,000 club seats. The stadium's luxury suites sell for between $224,000 and $900,000 a year.  BofA Stadium has 158 suites.  Using the lower figure for suites to both teams, Dallas brings in $76.6 million a year compared to $35.3 million for Charlotte.  That's a lot of scratch.  

One interesting thing, that's in line with your comment on renovations, is the idea of restructuring the sides of the stadium.  The University of Michigan did this a couple of years ago and The University of Notre Dame is doing it now.  They are essentially stacking suits and club seats on the side of the stadiums instead of having just regular seating.  

The result could be building a structure on the West side of the stadium that would be similar to what they did in SF with Levi stadium.  You would remove most of the top bowl seats and replace with luxury boxes and club suits.  This would bring BofA up to similar counts in Dallas and LA without the need for a new stadium.  This side would also offer amazing views of Uptown and add a massive facade for branding opportunities.  

BofA.png

Levi Stadium.png

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39 minutes ago, cjd5050 said:

Agree on your logic but can also see the perspective of a new owner.  It's eventually going to be an issue...sadly.  

The thing about the NFL is the way they do revenue sharing.  Each team does not have to share money from suites, club seating and sponsorship deals.  They do have to share regular ticket sales.  Dallas, for example, has 342 suites and 15,000 club seats. The stadium's luxury suites sell for between $224,000 and $900,000 a year.  BofA Stadium has 158 suites.  Using the lower figure for suites to both teams, Dallas brings in $76.6 million a year compared to $35.3 million for Charlotte.  That's a lot of scratch.  

One interesting thing, that's in line with your comment on renovations, is the idea of restructuring the sides of the stadium.  The University of Michigan did this a couple of years ago and The University of Notre Dame is doing it now.  They are essentially stacking suits and club seats on the side of the stadiums instead of having just regular seating.  

The result could be building a structure on the West side of the stadium that would be similar to what they did in SF with Levi stadium.  You would remove most of the top bowl seats and replace with luxury boxes and club suits.  This would bring BofA up to similar counts in Dallas and LA without the need for a new stadium.  This side would also offer amazing views of Uptown and add a massive facade for branding opportunities.  

BofA.png

Levi Stadium.png

I would prefer this option to moving the stadium, but I wonder how that works since most of those seats are owned by PSL holders? Does the team have to buy them back? Do they just refund the cost or do they pay fair market value?

One thing that wouldn't be great about this option is that there are already so few seats available to the general public. Unless they replaced that seating on the other side of the stadium with more general public seating, the team really wouldn't be accessible to anyone other than those with the means to own PSLs and season tickets, other than through the secondary market.

To add on to what you said about the revenue sharing and the gap between the Panthers and a team like the Cowboys, parking is also an area the Panthers do not collect money where teams with suburban stadiums do. The Cowboys, Redskins, and many other teams that own / lease their parking lots collect millions in parking fees. The Panthers don't own lots around the stadium. I'm sure that adds up to considerably less than revenue from suites, but a revenue is revenue and the Panthers aren't getting any.

Edited by Niner National

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On September 8, 2016 at 3:18 PM, Ryan20 said:

Brookhill at Tryon and Remount would be a great spot. But I'll move out of Charlotte if we have to subsidize a new stadium for a billionaire. 

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On September 8, 2016 at 5:28 PM, DavieNative said:

The stadium is in good shape in a great location with a fairly modern feel. We've continually sold it out even when we weren't good. Outside of more renovations there is no reason the city should be forking out cash for the panthers within the next 20 years. They have a great stadium and building a brand new dome just for a super bowl would never be worth it.

All recent stadium renovations have been subsidized by public monies.  It makes good business sense for both parties:  the owner get's a nice, comfy levered position, and the public receives the dollar benefits down the line as revenues pour in from the most popular and lucrative sport in the nation.

7 minutes ago, Niner National said:

I would prefer this option to moving the stadium, but I wonder how that works since most of those seats are owned by PSL holders? Does the team have to buy them back? Do they just refund the cost or do they pay fair market value?

One thing that wouldn't be great about this option is that there are already so few seats available to the general public. Unless they replaced that seating on the other side of the stadium with more general public seating, the team really wouldn't be accessible to anyone other than those with the means to own PSLs and season tickets, other than through the secondary market.

Creditors in St. Louis who received PSLs as settlement are suing the Rams, so we will see what the blowback is in that regard pretty soon.

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4 minutes ago, SgtCampsalot said:

I know it's a good deal for both public and private parties, but it's still extortion.

I don't like the word extortion.  Having an NFL team is a luxury for a city and the city should decide if they want one or not.  It's a business deal that is not even...I'll give you that.

That said, I think any investment should come with the requirement that the name be changed to the Charlotte Panthers.  

Just now, tozmervo said:

I don't know, I'm extremely skeptical that the net economic effect is favorable to municipalities. I've seen precious little evidence that stadiums represent a positive ROI for governments. There are certainly gross benefits - at least 8 days of the year - where we see increased sales/hotel tax revenue. And there better media recognition and branding notoriety with major league teams. But is all of that worth $1 billion+ stadiums? I don't think the numbers actually add up.

This is why I mentioned the idea of moving the stadium.  From what I remember, the studies that I read did not take into account surrounding real estate development into their ROI calculations.  

Where BofA right now is located, there little opportunity for spin off development that can be tied back to the stadium.  It's going to happen regardless and it's going to be big.  That said, if they were to move the stadium to where the current Amtrak station is for example (pending the completion of a new uptown station of course) one could argue that a new stadium there could change the projected development trajectory of that area.  By this I mean instead of mid-rise stick built construction. which is what's going up in NoDa, you could see a similar scale to what's going around the basketball arena.  The difference in property values, tax revenue, density along an already funded light rail extension and the like would all need to be considered....in addition to the 8 games a year.  I have no doubt that everything between NoDa and Uptown will eventually be redeveloped.  But what that infill looks like it still up in the air.  

I lived the before and after of Petco Park in San Diego.  I know for a fact that the density and scale of the East Village is directly tied to the stadium.  But that has never been covered in any of the  studies that reference the ballpark....to my understanding.  

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21 minutes ago, SgtCampsalot said:

I know it's a good deal for both public and private parties, but it's still extortion.

Big companies "extort" states all the time.  This is not novel.  Beating that drum is a lost cause unless there's something super unique about this situation.

17 minutes ago, tozmervo said:

I don't know, I'm extremely skeptical that the net economic effect is favorable to municipalities. I've seen precious little evidence that stadiums represent a positive ROI for governments. There are certainly gross benefits - at least 8 days of the year - where we see increased sales/hotel tax revenue. And there better media recognition and branding notoriety with major league teams. But is all of that worth $1 billion+ stadiums? I don't think the numbers actually add up.

With other entertainment uses factored in over the life of the stadium, the return is no worse than any other option, and as history shows, no state with an NFL team has regretted their decision; hell, Missouri re-upped on a bid to have the team remain in St.L but was a day late and a dollar short.  NFL franchises don't have much intrinsic value to the public at large, but if you have one, the economic activity it creates is a HUGE x-factor in development IMO.  Besides, Pascal's wager?

Edited by alb1no panther

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1 hour ago, cjd5050 said:

That said, I think any investment should come with the requirement that the name be changed to the Charlotte Panthers. 

This. Unless SC wants to contribute, which is never going to happen. 

Edited by 11 HouseBZ

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