Norfolk Off-Topic

[vdogg]

2 hours ago, BFG said:

Apparently Starwood is in default on a $750M loan that includes MacArthur as collateral. I’m guessing this puts this particular project in jeopardy?

https://www.pilotonline.com/business/vp-bz-macarthur-center-loan-20191219-jmqhxxjgfjartgaesrr5sdmraa-story.html

How the !?&@ is this even possible? Unbelievable. Well, maybe whoever buys MacArthur will tear it down and reestablish the core with dense, mixed-use, development.

[BFG]

I'm at the point to where the next time Norfolk announces a major project, I won't even hold my breath until I know there's a groundbreaking. Everything turns out underwhelming or put on the back burner indefinitely (this, Gateway Tower, that apartment building that was supposed to go next to the Chick-Fil-A on Monticello).

Meanwhile, other similar-sized metros like Charlotte chug right along. It's entirely frustrating, and I'm tired of leaders and the Chamber selling us this idea that we're headed to the next level.

[carolinaboy]

If that mall dies/fails it will really hurt all the progress that's been made. That mall (IMHO) is what started bringing people back to downtown who didn't work in DT.  Not really worried about the mixed-use component, more concerned now about the mall.

[Willy18]

I fear this thing will just be an empty shell in the near future. The city will have no vision or plan, they will just try and piece together something for the next 10-20 years. If a large "glossy" plan does arise it will get stalled with studies, questionnaires and townhall meetings. Spend countless years and millions of dollars trying to figure the best way to redevelop. Once it's finalized it will be a watered down very large enclosed strip mall with small start-ups.

Like I've said before, get in a damn car or get on a plane and see what other cities are doing!!!! Stop thinking, "Well that wouldn't work here". Ya know what doesn't work here...what we are currently doing. Like I said, we are where we are because of us. Can't blame the economy...it's booming. Can't blame the military...look at Jacksonville or San Diego, they're doing great. This goes for every city in HR!!! I mean even much smaller cities are making us look bad. They are growing and reinventing themselves all around us. Yet we want to figure out what we should call ourselves....757, Tidewater, Hampton Roads, Coastal Va., COVA. Who effing cares!!!! While we are laser focused on our identity other cities/metros are blowing past us. They are MAKING a name for themselves. So, just keep doing what you're doing. Let's continue to fight each other for the next 30 job warehouse expansion and the new cosmetology masters school program and check back with us in 20 years. We'll see how this all ends.        

[brikkman]

2 hours ago, Willy18 said:

I fear this thing will just be an empty shell in the near future. The city will have no vision or plan, they will just try and piece together something for the next 10-20 years. If a large "glossy" plan does arise it will get stalled with studies, questionnaires and townhall meetings. Spend countless years and millions of dollars trying to figure the best way to redevelop. Once it's finalized it will be a watered down very large enclosed strip mall with small start-ups.

Like I've said before, get in a damn car or get on a plane and see what other cities are doing!!!! Stop thinking, "Well that wouldn't work here". Ya know what doesn't work here...what we are currently doing. Like I said, we are where we are because of us. Can't blame the economy...it's booming. Can't blame the military...look at Jacksonville or San Diego, they're doing great. This goes for every city in HR!!! I mean even much smaller cities are making us look bad. They are growing and reinventing themselves all around us. Yet we want to figure out what we should call ourselves....757, Tidewater, Hampton Roads, Coastal Va., COVA. Who effing cares!!!! While we are laser focused on our identity other cities/metros are blowing past us. They are MAKING a name for themselves. So, just keep doing what you're doing. Let's continue to fight each other for the next 30 job warehouse expansion and the new cosmetology masters school program and check back with us in 20 years. We'll see how this all ends.        

I'm not shocked 1 bit. I know this is going to sound crazy, but I've said this time and time again, look at their vision for SPQ. This shouldn't shock anyone, certainly doesn't shock me. I think you are spot on with the issues, I agree with you 100%.  SPQ IMO represented exactly what you mentioned here. For that reason, I had to decompress my hopes a little of Norfolk turning the corner in a real way. They said this (mall issues) was coming a few years after the mall was built as the rest of the country started to move away from malls. This is why I continue to say things need to be built in a way that it can be easily be changed/modified or expanded without much need for fan fare. Without daring to be great, we are lost. Its easy to say look at we are now vs before, but how does that measure up to other cities our size? The military and beach still continue to reign supreme here.

[zeppelin14]

2 hours ago, Willy18 said:

Like I've said before, get in a damn car or get on a plane and see what other cities are doing!!!!

All they have to do is see what Hampton did with the former Coliseum Mall. That is what they should do with MacArthur Mall.... or something similar to VB's City Center. Tear up everything except the parking garages, Dillard's, and former Nordstrom's (much like the Peninsula with Macy's and JC Penney). Then build new around all of that with shops on the first level and apartments on the second level on up. Rebuild the city grid, etc. This could all be done in less than a decade and bring back a full city feel without this huge block of a building right in the middle of it all dividing up downtown.

[Norva757]

14 hours ago, BFG said:

I'm at the point to where the next time Norfolk announces a major project, I won't even hold my breath until I know there's a groundbreaking. Everything turns out underwhelming or put on the back burner indefinitely (this, Gateway Tower, that apartment building that was supposed to go next to the Chick-Fil-A on Monticello).

Meanwhile, other similar-sized metros like Charlotte chug right along. It's entirely frustrating, and I'm tired of leaders and the Chamber selling us this idea that we're headed to the next level.

I'm tired of this crap too.....It has to be our leadership in this region to not make any real progress.....We need real leaders here that will grow this metro area to its full potential

[Norva757]

3 hours ago, Willy18 said:

I fear this thing will just be an empty shell in the near future. The city will have no vision or plan, they will just try and piece together something for the next 10-20 years. If a large "glossy" plan does arise it will get stalled with studies, questionnaires and townhall meetings. Spend countless years and millions of dollars trying to figure the best way to redevelop. Once it's finalized it will be a watered down very large enclosed strip mall with small start-ups.

Like I've said before, get in a damn car or get on a plane and see what other cities are doing!!!! Stop thinking, "Well that wouldn't work here". Ya know what doesn't work here...what we are currently doing. Like I said, we are where we are because of us. Can't blame the economy...it's booming. Can't blame the military...look at Jacksonville or San Diego, they're doing great. This goes for every city in HR!!! I mean even much smaller cities are making us look bad. They are growing and reinventing themselves all around us. Yet we want to figure out what we should call ourselves....757, Tidewater, Hampton Roads, Coastal Va., COVA. Who effing cares!!!! While we are laser focused on our identity other cities/metros are blowing past us. They are MAKING a name for themselves. So, just keep doing what you're doing. Let's continue to fight each other for the next 30 job warehouse expansion and the new cosmetology masters school program and check back with us in 20 years. We'll see how this all ends.        

We need real leadership here.....we have never really had real leadership in this region and this needs to change. We need someone that sees the true potential of this beautiful region....Someone that really loves this region needs to step up and take the reigns that has the ability to make this happen.

[Willy18]

3 hours ago, Norva757 said:

We need real leadership here.....we have never really had real leadership in this region and this needs to change. We need someone that sees the true potential of this beautiful region....Someone that really loves this region needs to step up and take the reigns that has the ability to make this happen.

Agreed 110%. Where is this Starwood proposal? Where is the new arena? Where are we at with the Gateway? Where is the building boom other metros are having? These mayors and city leaders need to grow a pair and start making things happen. Stop just filling the position and make real economic changes/decisions for our cities and region.  

[BFG]

I keep reading about promising results from the Chamber of Commerce, and hear from local leaders and council members that we're working on regionalism. Like I said above, I won't believe any signs of progress until I see the progress. Right now, Norfolk is 0-for-2 with Starwood and Gateway. Their best bet at an arena is getting the other cities on board with a promising plan that allows everyone to benefit.

The only way that's happening is if there's minimal taxes (i.e. no property tax raises, just hotels/rental cars). And I guarantee VB residents will still complain even if they don't have to pay.

[KJHburg]

On 10/28/2019 at 5:24 PM, michael ary said:

I feel like the Triangle and HR share a lot of commonalities. Although the distance to get from once city to the other is a little greater in the triangle, you still have the one city that feels like it's better than all the others (Cary/Virginia Beach), the two cities who want to be the top dog (Raleigh/Durham, NFK/VB), the one city that the others look down on (Portsmouth/Durham) and instead of building up they continue to spread further and furher out for overproced Ryan homes planned subdivisions. The bigggest difference I've noticed is that the Triangle is growing by leaps and bounds and HR is continuing to go in circles.

Actually that is good analysis.  How about this name for your region?  Tidewater Metros or just Southeast Virginia Metro and that would indicate there are multiple cities there.   The Piedmont Triad of NC  Greensboro Winston-Salem and High Point actually has a similar problem with Hampton Roads/Norfolk VA Beach Newport News Hampton Chesapeake/Tidewater/the757 etc    The name was confusing to outsiders.   The Feds broke that into 2 metros and it seemed to help as the 2 dominant cities Greensboro and Winston each stand on their own now despite people commuting between the 2 everyday. 

The Triangle area of NC Raleigh Durham Chapel Hill is now 2 separate metro areas but they have greater name recognition due to the Research Triangle Park being in the center.  Raleigh Cary  Metro which is Wake County dominated is growing very fast and Durham Chapel Hill is a separate metro even though 1000s of commuters travel between both.  Maybe breaking off the Hampton Newport News side  and then lump the southside cities all together would help.  Virginia Beach is a large suburban city the size of the old P. A. county and Norfolk is the historical urban core of the region.  The way Virginia has landlocked all your cities separate from the counties and so forth as contributed to all this competition.  As former Fairfax County resident I know that area has branded itself as Northern Virginia and most know what and where that means.   Raleigh is still the largest city in the metro and yes Cary is powerful force in its own way but is still way smaller than Raleigh.  Put together Raleigh Durham Chapel Hill  metros together as they once were is larger now than Hampton Roads metro due to tremendous growth.    (while some people make look down on Durham many people from Raleigh and Cary flock over there for the DPAC Durham Performing Arts Center and their unique downtown)( and you talk about rivalries nothing beats the UNC vs Duke vs NC State on the court or field) 

In terms of growth I think the Hampton Roads is growing more slowly due to land constraints.  It is now spilling into far northeastern NC.  There is no easy answer other than regional cooperation big time and spending bucks marketing the region as a whole.  But I do think a north south split of the metros could be helpful believe it or not.  Your region has a lot of strengths including your massive port facilities, military bases but there does seem to be much less cooperation in the 757  than in the NC metros that have multiple city anchors.   It is easier when you have one dominant city like where I am from in Charlotte but Raleigh Durham may show you how to do it.  

[Willy18]

https://www.wavy.com/news/local-news/norfolk/j-crew-and-3-other-stores-leaving-macarthur-center-but-more-stores-are-on-the-way-in/

Saw this article on Wavy about even more stores leaving MacArthur. Good news is that I can now play putt putt in the dark and get pictures taken with my dog all under one roof....truly tough to watch this car crash.

Gonna end up like a 3 story Military Circle.  

[zeppelin14]

Wasn't MacArthur Mall supposed to NOT be the type of mall to attract glow in the dark mini golf and pet portrait photo stores and be the upscale mall? This is just becoming embarrassing.

Edited January 16, 2020 by zeppelin14

[BFG]

Considering it's going to take a few years to implement, the city needs to come up with a mixed-use plan ASAP. They do not need two dead malls ten minutes from each other. I know they have a long-term plan for Military Circle, but the one venue that jump-started downtown needs to take higher priority, especially with SPQ coming in the next few years. Glow in the dark golf is a Band-aid for a cut that will only grow more and more each day.

[mistermetaj]

13 hours ago, BFG said:

Considering it's going to take a few years to implement, the city needs to come up with a mixed-use plan ASAP. They do not need two dead malls ten minutes from each other. I know they have a long-term plan for Military Circle, but the one venue that jump-started downtown needs to take higher priority, especially with SPQ coming in the next few years. Glow in the dark golf is a Band-aid for a cut that will only grow more and more each day.

They need to carve it up and restore the grid. All malls are dying. McArthur served its purpose to bring people downtown, but it's not longer useful. This is the new waterside IMO, and that's not a good thing.

[urbanfan]

Knock it down, the future for mall retail is bleak.  Leave the garages and build an arena mixed use facility in its place!

[urbanlife]

22 hours ago, zeppelin14 said:

Wasn't MacArthur Mall supposed to NOT be the type of mall to attract glow in the dark mini golf and pet portrait photo stores and be the upscale mall? This is just becoming embarrassing.

That's the unfortunate thing about malls, once the newness wears off, they have to do a lot to keep themselves relevant. It would have been better for the city if it had built this mall in a more urban style and created retail blocks rather than a big suburban mall in the middle of downtown. It would have been much easier to revitalize the mall as it aged. 

[BFG]

13 hours ago, mistermetaj said:

They need to carve it up and restore the grid. All malls are dying. McArthur served its purpose to bring people downtown, but it's not longer useful. This is the new waterside IMO, and that's not a good thing.

The more I think about it, the more I wonder how didn't Norfolk plan for this. I know the Internet wasn't what it is now, but economists predicted the concept of online shopping as far back as the 70s. I think somebody should've been able to tell that, even in the mid-90s, when MacArthur was in the planning stages, that it should incorporate a modern look that can be easily adapted. Norfolk is about to end up with a prime chunk of real estate that has very little versatility.

I was just there a couple months ago, and I love the architecture inside. I would hate to see that go, but unless you create a mixed-use development that incorporates more than apartments, you have a giant elephant in the room sitting downtown. You can only fit but so many creative spaces into such a massive building.

[lammius]

The mall is more than 20 years old at this point.  You can see how its design tried to shield visitors from the city outside.  Now that downtown's a decent place, you wish it would do the opposite.  

For years I've wanted to see what downtown would look like if MacMall was demolished and the street grid restored.  You could have some really great new development with ground floor retail/restaurant and office/residential/hotel/whatever above.  Something like CityCenterDC but with a few taller buildings might work well.  

[BFG]

It's crazy when you think about how MacArthur and Town Center in VB started construction around the same time, maybe a couple years apart. Virginia Beach really wanted to make Town Center the downtown, while Norfolk went with a suburban look. Imagine how different downtown looks if MacArthur were truly a town center with a street grid and a mix of midrise and taller buildings, with a few shops sprinkled in.

[BeagleAccountant]

7 hours ago, BFG said:

It's crazy when you think about how MacArthur and Town Center in VB started construction around the same time, maybe a couple years apart. Virginia Beach really wanted to make Town Center the downtown, while Norfolk went with a suburban look. Imagine how different downtown looks if MacArthur were truly a town center with a street grid and a mix of midrise and taller buildings, with a few shops sprinkled in.

I'll readily admit MacArthur was a mistake. However without it I'm not sure we are at the same point. MacArthur showed folks that Norfolk had potential. MarArthur showed folks that Norfolk was ready. It was time that showed they werent wrong and that they were building towards something special.

[urbanlife]

2 hours ago, BeagleAccountant said:

I'll readily admit MacArthur was a mistake. However without it I'm not sure we are at the same point. MacArthur showed folks that Norfolk had potential. MarArthur showed folks that Norfolk was ready. It was time that showed they werent wrong and that they were building towards something special.

At the time it was really seen as a turning point for downtown Norfolk.

[virginia pe]

4 hours ago, urbanlife said:

At the time it was really seen as a turning point for downtown Norfolk.

And it was.  Before the mall was built, the land where MacArthur Mall sits was a 17-acre parking lot.  That's how it was referred to in the paper and in City Hall - "the 17 acres".  And it was like that for years and years, maybe decades.  The city tried hard to find a developer to develop that parking lot without success, until Taubman came along with the mall proposal.  Despite its shortcomings today, back then it was the only option for the city, and it did turn the city around.
 

[Cjnfkvb]

As much as I like MacArthur Center, and consider it the best mall in the aria, and as much as I agree that it saved downtown Norfolk from being like downtown Newport News, it is definitely nearing the end of its it's useful life. When MacArthur Center was built, Downtown Norfolk was lacking major retail. Granby street was run down, partly because the city killed it by closing it off to vehicle traffic. The mall brought the missing retail that the city needed. Fast forward to today, and downtown Norfolk is doing better than it has in a long time. The problem is downtown no longer needs all that retail. Also other malls like Pembroke, and Lynhaven, and the outlets are catching up quick, with there offerings for the suburban dwellers, and tourists, which make up most of MacArthurs cliantel, and dont even get me started with Amazon. Downtown Norfolk is currently saturated with more retail than it can handle. The city needs to act quickly, because while MacArthur is not dead yet(it will not die tha same death as Military Circle, because that mall had its own unique problems.), if it is allowed to die, it will begin to hurt downtown Norfolk.  Imo, tear it down. Keep the parking garages. Restore the street grid, but keep it on a road diet to avoid creating barriers, and make it bike and pedestrian friendly. Rebuild what remains into a mixture of public squares,and connected buildings of at least 8 stories. Floors 1-3 should contain retail and restaurants like the type of restaurants that front Monticello ave. On the third floor, they can put in a network of pedestrian walkways simular to Short Pump, or the High Line in New York. Above that they can build apartments, hotels, and ofice space. They should also add a major attraction of some sort; either a small amusement park, water park, museum, or somthing creative. Throw in a couple skyscrapers just for fun, and you have the next generation of MacArthur center, and downtown. 

[brikkman]

Considering what they are doing with SPQ, knocking it down isn't such a bad idea but I wonder what demand really looks like. What does it really take for a developer to come in and build in and around DT Norfolk. There are still lots open, Synder (I believe it is called) has been vacant for a while, haven't heard any takers on that. Infills have been processed, but looked how long it took for that to happen. I thought if you took a bulldozer to tidewater gardens and left it open, it would be a developer or two willing to just redeveloped it, or perhaps anchor it. Ft. Norfolk is still prime, slow movement on that.  I'm starting to think there is  just a legacy of bad city management and lack of vision. Its the only thing I can think of at this point. Waterside will forever be our example of how the city stifles things.

Sad, but knock it down is really the only reasonable solution.