Norfolk Off-Topic

[baobabs727]

18 hours ago, Arctic_Tern said:

So, I see this less as a "Peninsula vs SHR" issue but more as "this does not maximize the areas potential" thing. Cause I disagree with your second point. I don't think that W&M would be as engaged as would an ODU/Sentera merger. While ODU has a health sciences college (undergrad through doctorate degrees), a nursing program, bioengineering, and is investing in a new health sciences building, W&M has a "Kinesiology & Health Sciences" undergraduate degree and Pre-Nursing. I honestly feel like the proposed merger was just a prestige piece for W&M. Whereas ODU (and Sentera and NSU) would make it a priority, as they've already made a commitment to health sciences.

William and Mary doesn’t need to gain “prestige” from any outside entity, from anyone or from anywhere. 

And as far as Sentara’s involvement goes, they are a new component to this merger  concept and proposal. There’s no reason why Sentara, which has a beautiful newer campus in Williamsburg, couldn’t work with William and Mary, as well. 

6 hours ago, BFG said:

Agreed. That’s not to say W&M shouldn’t expand its reach. I just don’t see how coming all the way to Norfolk makes sense, when two schools are within 10 minutes of EVMS. Maybe create a Southside satellite site instead, the way ODU has one in Hampton, and HU at VB Town Center?

That said, once this HR/RVA megaregion idea starts taking off, and the state begins expanding its tech presence, esp. between the Peninsula and Richmond, that may present the perfect opportunity for W&M. 

Let’s not forget that EVMS approached William and Mary, originally. Not the other way around. Your guess is as good as mine as to why EVMS concluded that they would rather partner with William and Mary...all the way up in Williamsburg....

Edited November 8, 2020 by baobabs727

[BFG]

The "Norfolk Innovation Corridor" wants to make HR the most resilient community in America. Sounds like this has the potential to bring some tech companies to the area.

https://www.pilotonline.com/business/vp-bz-norfolk-innovation-corridor-20201120-k767gfjyyzhi3epencx5evh67m-story.html

[baobabs727]

As I somewhat suspected. EVMS might be falling victim to the mighty, mighty Sentara, via the latter’s move to fast-track a merger with Old Dominion University.
 

https://www.pilotonline.com/news/health/vp-nw-evms-sentara-odu-merger-20201125-3jzkr4kktvdgzbux2olpgpkqa4-story.html

Edited November 25, 2020 by baobabs727

[BFG]

Councilmember Andria McClellan just announced her plans to run for Lieutenant Governor.

https://www.facebook.com/andriaforvirginia

https://www.wavy.com/news/politics/virginia-politics/mcclellan-officially-running-for-virginia-lieutenant-governor-joins-crowded-field/

Edited December 1, 2020 by BFG

[BeagleAccountant]

On 11/25/2020 at 4:02 PM, baobabs727 said:

As I somewhat suspected. EVMS might be falling victim to the mighty, mighty Sentara, via the latter’s move to fast-track a merger with Old Dominion University.
 

https://www.pilotonline.com/news/health/vp-nw-evms-sentara-odu-merger-20201125-3jzkr4kktvdgzbux2olpgpkqa4-story.html

Update on this story — EVMS still not fans of the consultant or study but is ready to discuss going under the umbrella of Old Dominion with all parties;

https://www.pilotonline.com/news/health/vp-nw-evms-sentara-manatt-20201201-n7ua7okpazbijfilggk7ex5d2i-story.html

Edited December 1, 2020 by BeagleAccountant
Fixed link

[baobabs727]

11 hours ago, BeagleAccountant said:

Update on this story — EVMS still not fans of the consultant or study but is ready to discuss going under the umbrella of Old Dominion with all parties;

https://www.pilotonline.com/news/health/vp-nw-evms-sentara-manatt-20201201-n7ua7okpazbijfilggk7ex5d2i-story.html

They are not fans of Sentara trying to force them to rely on state funding under the ODU umbrella. They’re not fans of Sentara angling to absorb them then withdraw their resources, thus shifting the funding burden to unreliable sources. Old Dominion does not have the resources (endowment is not impressive  and the alumni, by and large, are not wealthy) and the state will likely not provide them with adequate $$. if they’re guaranteed of a funding mechanism, they will “merge.”

Edited December 2, 2020 by baobabs727

[BeagleAccountant]

11 hours ago, baobabs727 said:

They are not fans of Sentara trying to force them to rely on state funding under the ODU umbrella. They’re not fans of Sentara angling to absorb them then withdraw their resources, thus shifting the funding burden to unreliable sources. Old Dominion does not have the resources (endowment is not impressive  and the alumni, by and large, are not wealthy) and the state will likely not provide them with adequate $$. if they’re guaranteed of a funding mechanism, they will “merge.”

Cool. I would wager this merger happens.

Edited December 2, 2020 by BeagleAccountant

[vdogg]

Going through some old threads and I forgot about this gem, building a vertical expansion out of the federal courthouse. This would have been a compromise solution to the GSA having to buy and shut down the Granby Tower site. Needless to say this didn't happen, and 16 years later (GT was first proposed in 2004) the GSA is still sitting on prime property in downtown Norfolk with no end in sight as to the delay for this mythical courthouse they want to one day build.

 

[carolinaboy]

I thought once they had don the piles for Granby Tower it was going to rise, but no............

 

It still really ticks me off to this day. Granby Tower would have been transformative and the tower portion on the courthouse too.

 

So they killed Granby Tower and didn't expand the courthouse. 

[Arctic_Tern]

14 hours ago, baobabs727 said:

They are not fans of Sentara trying to force them to rely on state funding under the ODU umbrella. They’re not fans of Sentara angling to absorb them then withdraw their resources, thus shifting the funding burden to unreliable sources. Old Dominion does not have the resources (endowment is not impressive  and the alumni, by and large, are not wealthy) and the state will likely not provide them with adequate $$. if they’re guaranteed of a funding mechanism, they will “merge.”

EVMS has always had a stick up its butt when it comes to ODU.  I still think an EVMS - ODU merger is the best thing for both institutions, and the area as a whole, and reading the article it looks like it will probably happen in one form or another. 

Edited December 2, 2020 by Arctic_Tern

[BFG]

Nothing set in stone, but Norfolk offers a few more plans for the future of the city, mainly downtown.

https://www.pilotonline.com/government/local/vp-nw-fz20-norfolk-future-visions-20201231-m5bbrrua6jgtrjfblaxamfnkva-story.html

[vdogg]

I'd be happy with 2 or 3 to be honest, but I'm leaning towards 3.

[BFG]

I’d hate to see MacArthur go, but when I see just how much land that mall takes up, I’m perfectly okay with option 2 or 3 as well. That should’ve been mixed-use city blocks with a new arena from day one. Norfolk wanted to replace Scope going back to the mid-90s; I think I would’ve rather had that instead.

MacArthur changed downtown, no denying that, but city blocks with retail on the first couple floors, with 10-20 stories for residential, office, and hotel space would be amazing and have a shelf life beyond 20 years. I also think Granby Tower gets built if all that gets built in the 90s. 

[zeppelin14]

I like how they refer to the empty spot in the mall as the Macy's space. Lol.

I think this is the best opportunity to just start from scratch. Scope is very out of date and it doesn't seem like an arena will be built at Military Circle. Tear down MacArthur Mall.

Build an arena at the mall location, but do so with adjoining stores and restaurants that face the streets so it's not dead when an event isn't going on. Promise some of the mall stores retail space for the rest of the rebuilt street level grid roads built.

Street level retail, apartments and condos above. Businesses as well. Entertainment filling in elsewhere.

When that is done, tear down Scope. In its place, put in whatever the  city said it needed.... offices, music practice space (or whatever it was) for the symphony, a new city hall, new Federal court house facilities they are hoarding the old Granby Tower site for.

Then release the old Granby Tower site for private business to build on once again.

Me for Mayor. Lol.

[Arctic_Tern]

On 12/24/2020 at 4:45 PM, 757Duke said:

 

So this view keeps coming up and is said to be a refreshingly nice, if not the nicest of the city, from the city. Unfortunately, what occupies this space right now is a  parking garage and a part of the mall that has zero visibility of this area.

 

I personally hope that the city demolishes the mall, reinstate a grid, and build with creating a better center city space in mind (especially in incorporating this park). You've got the Selden and Monticello Arcade, the downtown Library, the light rail and the MacArthur Museum/Memorial on one end, the Norva, Wells Theater, and Granby a block away on another side, and Apartments/Chrysler/Scope on the other end. Placemaking in this area should be pretty easy to encourage and invision. 

[baobabs727]

Wow. Savages, all. Lol. 

I simply cannot advocate for number three at this time. Especially not until there is a concrete plan with signed tenants and full private and public funding in place, etc. for the next iteration of that space. The building has not outlived its usefulness. 20 years is nothing. Lynnhaven is 40 years old. Pembroke is over 50 years old. Town Center is approaching 20 years in some corners.   MacArthur has not deteriorated physically yet and still has good bones and tremendous redevelopment potential. Things are gonna have get a lot worse for me to go along with 3. 

Also, I would hate to lose Dillards in a total wipeout (#3).  That is a 265,000 square-foot East Coast flagship store which has no rival in this region (or now even in Richmond) in terms of size and variety of high quality offerings. They would have nowhere else to go, and Norfolk would basically have zero anchor retail in the entire city.  I don’t see them wanting to be a standalone store with nothing else there to support them either. I’m not saying there are direct parallels, but I don’t want to repeat the bulldozing of the 50s and 60s. It just leaves a bad taste in my mouth.

I would like to see that third anchor pad developed into an apartment/restaurant/entertainment complex, first. Perhaps offices plus grocery, Target  or something in Nordstrom. Offices on the third floor are ok, but I would also not want to lose all 18 screens (assuming someone takes over there) because the next closest multiplex movies are at Military Circle. And who knows how long they will be there. Do we really want to have zero multiplexes in the entire city ....along with zero anchor retail?  
After we do proposal number one along with the third anchor pad, we can see what happens and perhaps transition over the next 10 years to breaking up the mall into a street grid/open-aire format. But what we don’t want to do is just tear it down willy-nilly and then be left with a massive empty lot for the next 20 years. That is a distinct possibility if we proceed  without a doable and well-financed plan.

Zero doubt in my mind that Military Circle is the best location for an arena. I don’t think I really have to go into the why, do I?

 

Edited January 3, 2021 by baobabs727

[BFG]

Fortnite's developer buys a dead mall in Cary, NC, outside of Raleigh. I really hope someone in Norfolk is taking note.

https://www.ign.com/articles/fortnite-epic-games-buys-mall-hq-cary?fbclid=IwAR2ztewEoZV6VK6MnFxsOkeSagegeJsz_k6-h683qtFMiLjLF9KLARd8ycg

[Norf Native]

Anyone know where Greyhound relocated to?  The bus station on Brambleton looks deserted. Even the name is gone. 

[BFG]

Aren’t they now at the bus transfer station on St. Paul’s Blvd?

[Norf Native]

I don't understand why they would move since the TCC Visual Arts Center has been delayed, if not cancelled altogether.

[Norf Native]

According to the Greyhound website, it's just a bus stop there.  The location is awful, who do they think would want to go over there to catch a bus? 

[Virginia City]

On 1/2/2021 at 11:39 PM, baobabs727 said:

Also, I would hate to lose Dillards in a total wipeout (#3).  That is a 265,000 square-foot East Coast flagship store which has no rival in this region (or now even in Richmond) in terms of size and variety of high quality offerings. They would have nowhere else to go, and Norfolk would basically have zero anchor retail in the entire city.  I don’t see them wanting to be a standalone store with nothing else there to support them either. I’m not saying there are direct parallels, but I don’t want to repeat the bulldozing of the 50s and 60s. It just leaves a bad taste in my mouth.

 

Who says they have to kick them out. Hampton demoed the Coliseum Mall around Macy's and keep that building intact. They also kept JCPennys where they were and open until they had built the new building where they wanted them to be. I don't see how they couldn't use either option for Dillards.

 

[Norfolk757Kid]

On 1/2/2021 at 11:39 PM, baobabs727 said:

Wow. Savages, all. Lol. 

I simply cannot advocate for number three at this time. Especially not until there is a concrete plan with signed tenants and full private and public funding in place, etc. for the next iteration of that space. The building has not outlived its usefulness. 20 years is nothing. Lynnhaven is 40 years old. Pembroke is over 50 years old. Town Center is approaching 20 years in some corners.   MacArthur has not deteriorated physically yet and still has good bones and tremendous redevelopment potential. Things are gonna have get a lot worse for me to go along with 3. 

Also, I would hate to lose Dillards in a total wipeout (#3).  That is a 265,000 square-foot East Coast flagship store which has no rival in this region (or now even in Richmond) in terms of size and variety of high quality offerings. They would have nowhere else to go, and Norfolk would basically have zero anchor retail in the entire city.  I don’t see them wanting to be a standalone store with nothing else there to support them either. I’m not saying there are direct parallels, but I don’t want to repeat the bulldozing of the 50s and 60s. It just leaves a bad taste in my mouth.

I would like to see that third anchor pad developed into an apartment/restaurant/entertainment complex, first. Perhaps offices plus grocery, Target  or something in Nordstrom. Offices on the third floor are ok, but I would also not want to lose all 18 screens (assuming someone takes over there) because the next closest multiplex movies are at Military Circle. And who knows how long they will be there. Do we really want to have zero multiplexes in the entire city ....along with zero anchor retail?  
After we do proposal number one along with the third anchor pad, we can see what happens and perhaps transition over the next 10 years to breaking up the mall into a street grid/open-aire format. But what we don’t want to do is just tear it down willy-nilly and then be left with a massive empty lot for the next 20 years. That is a distinct possibility if we proceed  without a doable and well-financed plan.

Zero doubt in my mind that Military Circle is the best location for an arena. I don’t think I really have to go into the why, do I?

 

Macarthur was misguided, as plenty of people said before it was built. The argument that the mall brought investment back to downtown is hollow too. Investment would have come with or without a mall, when regional and national trends came to Norfolk. Besides producing artificial scarcity in the real estate market, it makes no sense to have a suburban style shopping mall in the middle, the centerpiece even, of Hampton Road's most pedestrian area. Opening it up and connecting to St. Paul's would be great (option 2), but restoring the street grid would reorient the entire downtown. I can live without a multiplex. 

[baobabs727]

22 hours ago, Norfolk757Kid said:

Macarthur was misguided, as plenty of people said before it was built. The argument that the mall brought investment back to downtown is hollow too. Investment would have come with or without a mall, when regional and national trends came to Norfolk. Besides producing artificial scarcity in the real estate market, it makes no sense to have a suburban style shopping mall in the middle, the centerpiece even, of Hampton Road's most pedestrian area. Opening it up and connecting to St. Paul's would be great (option 2), but restoring the street grid would reorient the entire downtown. I can live without a multiplex. 

Respecfully,  I disagree with nearly everything you said.  I could probably agree on some nuanced points, in shades of gray, but you appear to have a very black-and-white view of the  issue, so I’m not going to argue.

However, I will say that  hindsight is always 20/20. The Taubman companies brought with them $330 million of direct capital investment to Norfolk. And that is 1999 dollars.  This was the largest single investment ever in the history of the state of Virginia, south of Northern Virginia, for a retail and entertainment complex. Second place was not even close. That is a fact. Taubman had a sterling reputation and did their due diligence and homework for many years prior to committing funds.. They knew what they were doing.   Nothing in your preferred town center type format had been proposed in the 90’s, nor would it have been. This is what we got. Were we we supposed to reject the investment? 

Taubman convinced higher end retailers, who also have their own teams of market analysts and advisors—retailers with a cache that no other single developer or partnership could have or would have ever brought to Norfolk— to come to downtown Norfolk in an enclosed shopping mall.  Nationally, mall development was just starting to die around the time MacArthur was completed, but not so much as it was being conceived some 4 to 6 years earlier.   The Internet was a newborn relative to online retail. And so  it is not true that everyone knew what was going to happen to malls in the future between 1994 and 1999.

Taubman had 15 good, profitable years with this mall. The mall was not a failure.

The economic spin off effect was real, as well. Ask Mayor Fraim or any of the downtown Norfolk residents or DNC members. I don’t know where you’re coming from on this. So many millions upon millions of dollars were invested in building condominiums and apartments, and in redeveloping storefronts and encouraging new investment in restaurants,  in large part because of the development of MacArthur Center. 

Perhaps It’s generational. Including the movies. We’re not dead yet.   And we have plenty of money.

So...having said that, I could go for option number two.   

edit: (sorry, I was trying to type earlier whilst eating fajitas out...yes, inside of a restaurant).  

Query:  How would you go about executing #2–mechanically/structurally, and precisely at what junctures/points? What would go away and what would remain? By the way, why no movies? LOL. Are you streaming on a 50 foot screen at home?  I guess you’re either a cinephile or you aren’t. Nothing quite like the big screen baby. 

Edited January 16, 2021 by baobabs727

[Norfolk757Kid]

On 1/15/2021 at 4:45 PM, baobabs727 said:

Respecfully,  I disagree with nearly everything you said.  I could probably agree on some nuanced points, in shades of gray, but you appear to have a very black-and-white view of the  issue, so I’m not going to argue.

However, I will say that  hindsight is always 20/20. The Taubman companies brought with them $330 million of direct capital investment to Norfolk. And that is 1999 dollars.  This was the largest single investment ever in the history of the state of Virginia, south of Northern Virginia, for a retail and entertainment complex. Second place was not even close. That is a fact. Taubman had a sterling reputation and did their due diligence and homework for many years prior to committing funds.. They knew what they were doing.   Nothing in your preferred town center type format had been proposed in the 90’s, nor would it have been. This is what we got. Were we we supposed to reject the investment? 

Taubman convinced higher end retailers, who also have their own teams of market analysts and advisors—retailers with a cache that no other single developer or partnership could have or would have ever brought to Norfolk— to come to downtown Norfolk in an enclosed shopping mall.  Nationally, mall development was just starting to die around the time MacArthur was completed, but not so much as it was being conceived some 4 to 6 years earlier.   The Internet was a newborn relative to online retail. And so  it is not true that everyone knew what was going to happen to malls in the future between 1994 and 1999.

Taubman had 15 good, profitable years with this mall. The mall was not a failure.

The economic spin off effect was real, as well. Ask Mayor Fraim or any of the downtown Norfolk residents or DNC members. I don’t know where you’re coming from on this. So many millions upon millions of dollars were invested in building condominiums and apartments, and in redeveloping storefronts and encouraging new investment in restaurants,  in large part because of the development of MacArthur Center. 

Perhaps It’s generational. Including the movies. We’re not dead yet.   And we have plenty of money.

So...having said that, I could go for option number two.   

edit: (sorry, I was trying to type earlier whilst eating fajitas out...yes, inside of a restaurant).  

Query:  How would you go about executing #2–mechanically/structurally, and precisely at what junctures/points? What would go away and what would remain? By the way, why no movies? LOL. Are you streaming on a 50 foot screen at home?  I guess you’re either a cinephile or you aren’t. Nothing quite like the big screen baby. 

 Oh yeah I understand that it's more complicated than me not wanting a shopping mall downtown (plus all the people the mall employs), but I'm just saying that it's possible that downtown could have rebounded and had its renaissance without the mall as well, just would have happened differently. I think it's significant that most of those high end retailers are not local businesses.