Norfolk Off-Topic

[vdogg]

https://www.pilotonline.com/government/virginia/vp-nw-census-distortion-folo-20210818-b4wf2lalkfb35fkrtkj6xdfp4a-story.html

"More than a dozen children live on a Virginia Beach block where only a 7-Eleven and urgent care center stand, according to the 2020 Census.

Meanwhile, no one resides in a block of mansions in the southern area of the city. And the Pacific Islander population rose more than 300% in Virginia counties that previously had few of them.

Much of the census data released last week paints portraits of certain communities that simply make no sense, according to analysts with the University of Virginia’s Weldon Cooper Center for Public Policy"

Hmm...

[EJ_LEWIS]

Its was clear from the day they released the data that the census numbers are way off.  This is what I believe:

Norfolk grew by 5,000 people since 2010.  Population should be around 247,000.  

Portsmouth remained relatively flat from 2010.  

[NFKfloodcaptain]

West Ghent supposedly lost 19,000 people in one of the neighborhood breakdowns. The only thing I can think of is a MHI shipyard repair job was docked there in 2010 with thousands of people registered there. 

[BFG]

From NSU's Facebook page:

The presidents of Old Dominion University, Norfolk State University, and Eastern Virginia Medical School signed a memorandum of understanding this morning to form the ONE School of Public Health to serve Hampton Roads and the Commonwealth of Virginia. #health #ODU #NSU #EVMS

[BFG]

Official Pilot article. 

https://www.pilotonline.com/news/education/vp-nw-odu-evms-nsu-20210827-hozbvyxlvvcwrnrlsw75jnbn3e-story.html

[Kevin Cheph Randall]

16 hours ago, varider said:

At this point, I personally am just thankful that we are starting to see demolition and some new construction and infrastructure improvements in SPQ. 
 

over the years, I’ve come to realize that we all have a different perception of what norfolk is and different ideas and aspirations for what the future of Norfolk and the 757 should look and feel like.  If some of us, pro-urban, pro-development, pro-transit, die-hard Norfolk supporters had our way, SPQ would be transformed into a true extension of downtown with mostly 6-10 story buildings and a few 12-15 floor towers to capitalize on better views and accommodate a range of lifestyles. With that said, at some point I have to come back to the reality of the situation, and reevaluate and reassess my own expectations. I’ve seen many of us on this forum get our hopes up countless times before the inevitable letdown and disappointment occurs. Progress in this area is very, very, slow, and many people my generation and younger have already left for faster growing, more popular towns like Nashville or Raleigh. Every time a new development opens in the 757, it seems like a no-brainer and hard to imagine the area without it. For example, I can’t imagine the oceanfront without the new mariott and beach club and Orion’s roof, and I don’t understand why we don’t have more rooftop venues. similarly, i can’t imagine Norfolk without the main/ grain or odu without a football stadium. However, the newness eventually wears off, the support declines, and the excitement dies down as we look for the next new development which will likely take decades of back and forth and being watered down to the point where the final product isn’t even worth the wait, and the cycle continues. 
 

As for the DT/SPQ conversation, until we have a dynamic job market and economy with population growth/ higher incomes, we can’t expect more than what is planned and what we currently see being built. We can’t expect to entirely transform the culture and see an unprecedented increase in demand to live in SPQ just because we tear down public housing and recreate the street grid. There is so much more to it that must be addressed which will take much longer than a lifetime to see fulfilled. For now, we must be thankful for the current state of development, and do what we can to be active and engaged in the process and the greater conversation of how to stimulate the local and regional economy and fix the perception and identify issues that plague this area, and honestly the entire state of Virginia. 
 

finally, I would not worry about Norfolk running out of developable land.. I think the city could accommodate at least 100K more people within the city limits if we one day saw that monumental shift it would take to ramp up activity and development.

I am sure of one thing, however. Unless Norfolk/VB/757 take bold steps and commit to a unified regional plan and vision, we don’t stand a chance. Even I, the most avid Norfolk supporter, at some point will be so exhausted from being let down by the slow pace of progress and the divergent viewpoints and lack of identity and dependence on the military and just overall underwhelming experience that we will just move on with our lives somewhere else. 
 

norfolk could be a vibrant, active, dense, dynamic, place to live and visit. There is nowhere in the 757 that even remotely has the vibe of Norfolk and the fact that the area can see 50K+ new residents in VB/ Chesapeake area while Norfolk loses population just speaks to the disconnect and identity crises that the city faces. If the tide turns, and it somehow becomes cool to live downtown and the surrounding neighborhoods and transit becomes popular, and people start to relocate as NOVA and other high cost of living areas become prohibitively expensive. However, we unfortunately will be in competition with Richmond for those seeking an urban lifestyle, and Norfolk will likely continue as the old navy port city with a tacky resort strip next door in the eyes of others, as us with rose colored shades will continue to see Norfolk as the crown jewel of Virginia with unlimited potential and will continue to fail to understand how Norfolk, with its prime east coast location and access can remain stagnant and mediocre, while other cities that quite frankly are unimpressive but-for the hype and the big city amenities that follow. If Norfolk raises to its greatest potential, it would blow all the new and up and coming cities out of the water (casino/harbor park redeveloped with high rises, mixed use, etc., MacArthur center redeveloped and integrated into street grid, ft. Norfolk built out with hotels,medical office and residential,  SPQ built out into safe, mixed-income neighborhood, NEON built out with apartments and maybe a new museum to complement what exists, arena and mixed use In military circle, area around ODU built out with maybe a Whole Foods or Trader Joe’s? Etc. But for now, all of that is a pipe dream and people will continue to move to Chesapeake at a slightly above average rate  and avoid Norfolk like the plague except for the occasional trip to the Zoo or maybe to see the fireworks on July 4... and I’ll continue to daydream about a dense, walkable, safe, clean Norfolk with multiple light rail lines, urban infill/TOD, an actual commute into business districts and not a commute to the naval base/shipyard, population over 300K, etc. the sad part is, the bold steps that Norfolk took over the past couple decades (light rail, The main, slover library, waterside, etc.) must be reinforced by continued efforts and investments or else it will all have been for nothing IMO. If light rail is not expanded literally ASAP, I envision literally ripping the tracks out of the ground by 2030. At this point, the train is literally a novelty and it’s honestly embarrassing to see the train pass by at night with the lights on and not a sole passenger in the light rail vehicle. The only time I’ve ever even seen a full rail car is immediately after a huge tides game w/ fireworks. There was so much hope and excitement when the tide opened, and here we are, hoping we can extend light rail a couple miles to military circle? and at best, we can expect BRT to the naval base? That won’t work in a million years and it’s an absolute shame that we can invest hundreds of millions of dollars for a train to nowhere and then expect people willl wait to transfer to a glorified bus?  The rejection of light rail to the oceanfront via town center might have been the biggest failure and letdown this region will ever see.. as the population there is actually growing and  the train would have bridged the perception gap between VB and Norfolk. If even 5%-10% of the population growth and relocations were centered around the light rail and activity was more clustered in any meaningful way, we would start to see the mixed use, denser urban developments we all dream for here. Without rail, vb and chesapeake will continue to sprawl and the bulk of investment and “urban” development will be centered in suburban environments like summit pointe rather than redevelopment and reinvestment in traditional urban neighborhoods in Norfolk or Portsmouth with endless potential for walkability in a more stimulating and active and desirable neighborhood.. 

Sorry for the rant.

The real issue in this area are the cities of Va Beach, Chesapeake, and Suffolk. Those cities have literally drained Norfolk/Portsmouth of essential tax base.  Norfolk has to take unnecessary  and calculated risk on a marginal amount of tax money. It quite ridiculous and flat out maddening that these suburb cities are allowed to sit on tax money their cities did not generate. VA Beach, Chesapeake, and Suffolk have done nothing to help this area no large industry, no real economic development, no higher education opportunities, they just literally STEAL tax money from the real economic engines of this region. Hampton Roads has to lose its borders pronto. 

Hell yeah VA Beach is the biggest leach of all,nearly 33,000+ residence commute to Norfolk, use Norfolk and take money made in Norfolk to VA Beach it's disgusting the state allows this theft. The  smaller cities have to raise taxes just to survive, while these suburb cities take no risk at all in moving the area forward. Honestly smaller independent cities in Virginia should sue the state for forcing and allowing unfair advantages of land locking urbancore cities and historic CBD's. If anything the state should funnel even more money into these communities or redraw district, distributing tax base accordingly. VA Beach has actively crippled this area on multiple occasions and continue to not live up to a city of 450,000 ppl. VA Beach  has a negative 20,000 people who leaves the city to work, for a city of that size and money that stat is sickening. 

Just think about how many billions of dollars have been wasted in this area??? Hundreds of schools, libraries, fire stations, government offices all overlapping populations in two different cities, that is freaking ridiculous as hell. 

We need more people to understand that Virginia's system of independent Cities and land annexation are flawed as hell and all cities should just drop the independent status and create counties so services can be shared and taxes can be put to better use. 

It's time for action honestly we need our state official and govern to understand just how flawed independent cities are especially if they can't annex tax base. Hampton Roads will need to be forced probably but it's long overdue. Casino's can not generate enough tax to help, maybe smaller independent core cities can make an argument for more tax money from marijuana sales like honestly the state cut the head off so many communities thru out this state it's just sad. 

And in all honesty I believe the policy is based in racism, that ran rampant in our state. So don't blame Norfolk place the blame where it need to be directly with the state and these suburb cities. 

[vdogg]

1 hour ago, Kevin Cheph Randall said:

The real issue in this area are the cities of Va Beach, Chesapeake, and Suffolk. Those cities have literally drained Norfolk/Portsmouth of essential tax base.  Norfolk has to take unnecessary  and calculated risk on a marginal amount of tax money. It quite ridiculous and flat out maddening that these suburb cities are allowed to sit on tax money their cities did not generate. VA Beach, Chesapeake, and Suffolk have done nothing to help this area no large industry, no real economic development, no higher education opportunities, they just literally STEAL tax money from the real economic engines of this region. Hampton Roads has to lose its borders pronto. 

Hell yeah VA Beach is the biggest leach of all,nearly 33,000+ residence commute to Norfolk, use Norfolk and take money made in Norfolk to VA Beach it's disgusting the state allows this theft. The  smaller cities have to raise taxes just to survive, while these suburb cities take no risk at all in moving the area forward. Honestly smaller independent cities in Virginia should sue the state for forcing and allowing unfair advantages of land locking urbancore cities and historic CBD's. If anything the state should funnel even more money into these communities or redraw district, distributing tax base accordingly. VA Beach has actively crippled this area on multiple occasions and continue to not live up to a city of 450,000 ppl. VA Beach  has a negative 20,000 people who leaves the city to work, for a city of that size and money that stat is sickening. 

Just think about how many billions of dollars have been wasted in this area??? Hundreds of schools, libraries, fire stations, government offices all overlapping populations in two different cities, that is freaking ridiculous as hell. 

We need more people to understand that Virginia's system of independent Cities and land annexation are flawed as hell and all cities should just drop the independent status and create counties so services can be shared and taxes can be put to better use. 

It's time for action honestly we need our state official and govern to understand just how flawed independent cities are especially if they can't annex tax base. Hampton Roads will need to be forced probably but it's long overdue. Casino's can not generate enough tax to help, maybe smaller independent core cities can make an argument for more tax money from marijuana sales like honestly the state cut the head off so many communities thru out this state it's just sad. 

And in all honesty I believe the policy is based in racism, that ran rampant in our state. So don't blame Norfolk place the blame where it need to be directly with the state and these suburb cities. 

I don’t think it’s entirely fair or accurate to say Va. Beach/Chesapeake contribute “nothing”. Va. Beach is one of the largest tourist destinations on the east coast outside of Florida and is a huge contributor to the local economy. The bases in Va. Beach, if they were to close, would have a devastating impact on the entire Hampton Roads economy. Chesapeake has one of the few fortune 500 companies in this area. I will agree that the creation of independent cities was largely a result of racism back in the day, but unfortunately that ship has sailed. You are not going to uncreate Virginia Beach, there is simply no way either of those cities is going to be rolled back into Norfolk proper. It’s just not happening. We have to figure out a way to work together going forward that benefits the entire region.

[BFG]

I’ve said for years that we need an NYC model with boroughs, but I think we’re closer to a Bay Area setup. One of my friends from San Francisco confirmed this when she visited a few years ago. Out there, you have SF, Oakland, and San Jose working independently but under the Bay Area umbrella. It seems to work. Between the three, San Jose is actually bigger than both SF and Oakland combined, but probably offers more tech and industry jobs.

Tampa and St. Pete would be another example. 
 

ETA: San Jose is almost bigger (1M exactly) vs. 1.3M combined for SF/Oakland. 

Edited August 31, 2021 by BFG

[Kevin Cheph Randall]

6 hours ago, vdogg said:

I don’t think it’s entirely fair or accurate to say Va. Beach/Chesapeake contribute “nothing”. Va. Beach is one of the largest tourist destinations on the east coast outside of Florida and is a huge contributor to the local economy. The bases in Va. Beach, if they were to close, would have a devastating impact on the entire Hampton Roads economy. Chesapeake has one of the few fortune 500 companies in this area. I will agree that the creation of independent cities was largely a result of racism back in the day, but unfortunately that ship has sailed. You are not going to uncreate Virginia Beach, there is simply no way either of those cities is going to be rolled back into Norfolk proper. It’s just not happening. We have to figure out a way to work together going forward that benefits the entire region.

VA Beach tourism does not support Hampton Roads and is only viable between May and Sept. The military insulations in VA Beach are in direct support of Norfolk's military base. VA Beach has done nothing and has nothing that could save this area. Sorry not sorry.

It is very fair and accurate for me to say VA Beach and Chesapeake does nothing, what have they done? Between those 2 locals is over 600,000 people,  Chesapeake and VA Beach have absolutely nothing that should or could support 600,000 people. You my friend have been fooled in believing something that just isn't true. 

Answer this for me too. If Virginia Beach tourism was so important to the region. Why didn't VB want the light rail to the Oceanfront? As I've said before VB is for VB not Hampton Roads and that city has actively crippled this area. 

 

 

 

 

[vdogg]

7 minutes ago, Kevin Cheph Randall said:

VA Beach tourism does not support Hampton Roads and is only viable between May and Sept. The military insulations in VA Beach are in direct support of Norfolk's military base. VA Beach has done nothing and has nothing that could save this area. Sorry not sorry.

It is very fair and accurate for me to say VA Beach and Chesapeake does nothing, what have they done? Between those 2 locals is over 600,000 people,  Chesapeake and VA Beach have absolutely nothing that should or could support 600,000 people. You my friend have been fooled in believing something that just isn't true. 

Answer this for me too. If Virginia Beach tourism was so important to the region. Why didn't VB want the light rail to the Oceanfront? As I've said before VB is for VB not Hampton Roads and that city has actively crippled this area. 

 

 

 

 

The light rail issue is quite complex and can pretty much be blamed on one man and his smear campaign for it's failure. Remember, in the 2nd referendum VB residents actually APPROVED light rail by a wide margin, and city council squandered that opportunity in the years since. That's a leadership problem, not a resident problem. I assure you my friend, I have not been "fooled" by anything. I prefer to take a nuanced approach, and am not so militant in my views. You cannot go up to someone and say "you're the reason for all my problems and you contribute nothing" and expect them to break bread with you. Even if you truly believe that, that approach will get you no where diplomatically. If our leaders follow that approach, our issues with regionalism will continue ad infinitum, I promise you that.

[Kevin Cheph Randall]

51 minutes ago, vdogg said:

The light rail issue is quite complex and can pretty much be blamed on one man and his smear campaign for it's failure. Remember, in the 2nd referendum VB residents actually APPROVED light rail by a wide margin, and city council squandered that opportunity in the years since. That's a leadership problem, not a resident problem. I assure you my friend, I have not been "fooled" by anything. I prefer to take a nuanced approach, and am not so militant in my views. You cannot go up to someone and say "you're the reason for all my problems and you contribute nothing" and expect them to break bread with you. Even if you truly believe that, that approach will get you no where diplomatically. If our leaders follow that approach, our issues with regionalism will continue ad infinitum, I promise you that.

The creation of Va Beach , Chesapeake and Suffolk ultimately doomed Norfolk and VA Beach continues to act in a un regional manner. Where is the lie? You want to sugar coat a lie as if Va Beach and Chesapeake hold equal weight and that's a lie. That is a continuation of the issues at hand, those 3 cities had no business existing. 

It's not about breaking bread, this is about moving our region forward. There is nothing that Va Beach or Chesapeake has that can sustain Hampton Roads except their huge tax base. The tax base that should have already been in Norfolk coffers.

And VA Beach residence did vote down the light rail, you may not see it or even choose to believe it VA Beach is very much a city that is quite racy( racist). Pharrell and Bruce Smith have both recently eluded that, and I spoke with multiple VB residence who said the light rail would bring the GHETTO to VB......  

[vdogg]

1 hour ago, Kevin Cheph Randall said:

The creation of Va Beach , Chesapeake and Suffolk ultimately doomed Norfolk and VA Beach continues to act in a un regional manner. Where is the lie? You want to sugar coat a lie as if Va Beach and Chesapeake hold equal weight and that's a lie. That is a continuation of the issues at hand, those 3 cities had no business existing. 

It's not about breaking bread, this is about moving our region forward. There is nothing that Va Beach or Chesapeake has that can sustain Hampton Roads except their huge tax base. The tax base that should have already been in Norfolk coffers.

And VA Beach residence did vote down the light rail, you may not see it or even choose to believe it VA Beach is very much a city that is quite racy( racist). Pharrell and Bruce Smith have both recently eluded that, and I spoke with multiple VB residence who said the light rail would bring the GHETTO to VB......  

Some history.

There were 3 referendums.

Voted down in 1999, APPROVED in 2012, voted down in 2016 after a smear campaign by a city leader.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Tide_light_rail#:~:text=On November 2012%2C voters approved,will be completed in 2014.

I'm honestly not sure where intend to go with this approach, you seem quite intent on alienating anyone that tries to find middle ground with you, so my final question is what would YOU do to fix the problem?

Also, it's funny that you mentioned Pharrell. He has spoken many times on the issue of racism in Virginia Beach, which does exist, I've never denied that. But he is also the city's biggest booster and it's constantly trying to give back to the area. He has spoken of the love that he has for his hometown on numerous occasions. 

[vdogg]

I'll be moving this all to the off-topic thread in the morning, but I think it'll be good for everyone to hear what Pharrell actually says about Va. Beach, so that there are no misconceptions on his views.

 

[Kevin Cheph Randall]

2 hours ago, vdogg said:

Some history.

There were 3 referendums.

Voted down in 1999, APPROVED in 2012, voted down in 2016 after a smear campaign by a city leader.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Tide_light_rail#:~:text=On November 2012%2C voters approved,will be completed in 2014.

I'm honestly not sure where intend to go with this approach, you seem quite intent on alienating anyone that tries to find middle ground with you, so my final question is what would YOU do to fix the problem?

Also, it's funny that you mentioned Pharrell. He has spoken many times on the issue of racism in Virginia Beach, which does exist, I've never denied that. But he is also the city's biggest booster and it's constantly trying to give back to the area. He has spoken of the love that he has for his hometown on numerous occasions. 

Yes he has spoken about VB positively I think Pharrell is one of the driving forcing in trying to make VB a destination and that's awesome. But on the other hand his unarmed cousin was gunned down by VB Police.... But that's another issue so back to HR as a whole. 

But yeah I stand very firm that this area needs to lose its borders. No I do not believe these cities will coexist, VB has had multiple opportunities to show better and hasn't. Is it fair that these large cities sit on 200+ Sq miles of land each. While Norfolk and Portsmouth combined are less than 100.You have no issue in keeping 'status quo', somehow now Norfolk need to ' break bread'. Honestly you guys got the kings ransom and have held the region hostage at times. The city council is voted in by VB residence so yes the demographic of your city isn't  progressive and the smear campaign worked. It's hard to look past how VB moves. 

How to fix the issue, the State needs to lose independent cities. It leads to unnecessary competition and elitist attitudes. Every city becomes a county and urban cores are incorporated into a new city call it New Dominion, I guess. Taxes and services will become shared. Break the new city up into equally populated district to elected officials to create a council. Mayor will be voted in by popular vote. The city annex unincorporated divisions every 8 yrs. 

Diluting the voter base who reside in VB would help move this area along most. Everybody would have a say in transit and infrastructure issue, only way to get that lose the borders. Not breaking bread with each other, somebody always will want more bread. 

 

 

 

Sorry also can you move to off topic I know this is totally off topic lol my bad. 

[vdogg]

8 hours ago, Kevin Cheph Randall said:

Yes he has spoken about VB positively I think Pharrell is one of the driving forcing in trying to make VB a destination and that's awesome. But on the other hand his unarmed cousin was gunned down by VB Police.... But that's another issue so back to HR as a whole. 

But yeah I stand very firm that this area needs to lose its borders. No I do not believe these cities will coexist, VB has had multiple opportunities to show better and hasn't. Is it fair that these large cities sit on 200+ Sq miles of land each. While Norfolk and Portsmouth combined are less than 100.You have no issue in keeping 'status quo', somehow now Norfolk need to ' break bread'. Honestly you guys got the kings ransom and have held the region hostage at times. The city council is voted in by VB residence so yes the demographic of your city isn't  progressive and the smear campaign worked. It's hard to look past how VB moves. 

How to fix the issue, the State needs to lose independent cities. It leads to unnecessary competition and elitist attitudes. Every city becomes a county and urban cores are incorporated into a new city call it New Dominion, I guess. Taxes and services will become shared. Break the new city up into equally populated district to elected officials to create a council. Mayor will be voted in by popular vote. The city annex unincorporated divisions every 8 yrs. 

Diluting the voter base who reside in VB would help move this area along most. Everybody would have a say in transit and infrastructure issue, only way to get that lose the borders. Not breaking bread with each other, somebody always will want more bread. 

 

 

 

Sorry also can you move to off topic I know this is totally off topic lol my bad. 

The problem here is that you need buy in from the city and/or the state. I'm sure you'll agree that Va. Beach will not vote to uncreate itself, so that leaves the state. No state legislator, dem or rep, is going to tell Va. Beach "you don't have a right to exist". The response to that would be nuclear, absolute political suicide. It's a nonstarter. However similar the cities were when they first Incorporated, we have to realize that they are distinct cultural entities today. The only system that would truly work is a bourough system, and we're already sort of set up for it. The hrtpo has shown that such system could work in this area, and I think it allows cities to keep their individuality while at the same time pooling our resources for the common good.

[Arctic_Tern]

30 minutes ago, vdogg said:

The problem here is that you need buy in from the city and/or the state. I'm sure you'll agree that Va. Beach will not vote to uncreate itself, so that leaves the state. No state legislator, dem or rep, is going to tell Va. Beach "you don't have a right to exist". The response to that would be nuclear, absolute political suicide. It's a nonstarter. However similar the cities were when they first Incorporated, we have to realize that they are distinct cultural entities today. The only system that would truly work is a bourough system, and we're already sort of set up for it. The hrtpo has shown that such system could work in this area, and I think it allows cities to keep their individuality while at the same time pooling our resources for the common good.

It does not work though, if it's already set up and worked then why are we in this situation?  Hampton Roads as it is set up is not in a bourough system, it is not the Bay area, what it is is a fractured region with each city trying to up their stature at the expense of the rest. In order to get what we have to work would require major systematic reform and for Virginia Beach to give up a lot of power. 

[vdogg]

1 hour ago, Arctic_Tern said:

It does not work though, if it's already set up and worked then why are we in this situation?  Hampton Roads as it is set up is not in a bourough system, it is not the Bay area, what it is is a fractured region with each city trying to up their stature at the expense of the rest. In order to get what we have to work would require major systematic reform and for Virginia Beach to give up a lot of power. 

The HRTPO does work though. The HRBT would not be under construction now if that were not the case. Everyone got together on that one, everyone had skin in the game. I’m not saying that everything works right now, but some things like hrtpo do, and we can use that as an example to build off of. Regional financing for transportation, transit, arenas, etc., are all things that are doable now. Pooling regional resources to attract Fortune 500 companies to our area is also doable. It’s realistic. The complete dismantling of Va. Beach, Chesapeake, Suffolk is simply not going to happen, so let’s focus on what’s attainable.

[Kevin Cheph Randall]

13 minutes ago, vdogg said:

The HRTPO does work though. The HRBT would not be under construction now if that were not the case. Everyone got together on that one, everyone had skin in the game. I’m not saying that everything works right now, but some things like hrtpo do, and we can use that as an example to build off of. Regional financing for transportation, transit, arenas, etc., are all things that are doable now. Pooling regional resources to attract Fortune 500 companies to our area is also doable. It’s realistic. The complete dismantling of Va. Beach, Chesapeake, Suffolk is simply not going to happen, so let’s focus on what’s attainable.

Why isn't it attainable? Every city would lose it's independent status. 

Why do independent continually get tied into individuality?  

[vdogg]

9 hours ago, Kevin Cheph Randall said:

Why isn't it attainable? Every city would lose it's independent status. 

Why do independent continually get tied into individuality?  

It all boils down to the right of self governance and the perceived infringement of that right. Norfolk and Portsmouth would probably be the easiest, most logical, cities to combine but everyone from politicians to normal citizens tend to bristle at that idea. It’s so bad that Portsmouth decided to move their casino away from the waterfront so they wouldn’t have to compete with Norfolk, never once considering that the casinos actually compliment each other and that through cooperation, both cities would benefit. If you can’t even get Norfolk and Portsmouth together, it’s not happening with any other city. And unless you plan on firing mortars from the city line and dropping paratroopers on city hall, Va. Beach will not acquiesce to any demands to give up  “power”, whatever that entails. There are, however, examples of regionalism that have worked in practice that if we build off of can sort of morph into a borough like system. Maybe one day after such a borough system has been in place for a period of time it will make sense to remove the independent city status from everyone (we’ll all be long dead and buried), but for the time being, I think a borough system is the best that can be hoped for.

[brikkman]

I was home this weekend. Drove down Brambleton into the fort Norfolk/evmc colley avenue area, what a drastic looking change a couple of building can do.

[Mountain_Junior]

It does not work though, if it's already set up and worked then why are we in this situation?  Hampton Roads as it is set up is not in a bourough system, it is not the Bay area, what it is is a fractured region with each city trying to up their stature at the expense of the rest. In order to get what we have to work would require major systematic reform and for Virginia Beach to give up a lot of power. 

This is spot on.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Mountain_Junior]

Why isn't it attainable? Every city would lose it's independent status. 
Why do independent continually get tied into individuality?  

Tying identity to independence is a tactic used by those who would not benefit from a unified city here (e.g. local politicians and those that support them). It’s not true but to many people it seems to make sense, despite numerous examples to the contrary. Ever heard of Hollywood? Brooklyn? Queens? Little Italy? All communities that thrive despite being part of a larger city. Lots of examples in HRVA too: Ghent, Kempsville, Phoebus, Churchland, Deep Creek, and Pungo are all communities that at some point became part of a larger city and they all have thriving identities and unique characters. So to answer your question: yes it is B.S.

Also, about the “why isn’t it attainable?” It is. Consolidation is a legal mechanism allowed by VA law(§ 15.2-3500). When the majority of voters in two or more adjacent localities approve, it can happen. It’s a joining together of equal entities. It’s not annexation and it’s not one city absorbing another. Moreover, there is no way for politicians or anyone else to stop it or say it can’t happen. (In fact VA law says that if local leaders won’t move forward after a petition has been submitted to the locality, the circuit court will issue an order to hold the vote on consolidation) It’s only a matter of political will and anyone who says it won’t happen is just telling you their cynical prediction of the future, not a fact of law.


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[Kevin Cheph Randall]

6 minutes ago, Mountain_Junior said:

Tying identity to independence is a tactic used by those who would not benefit from a unified city here (e.g. local politicians and those that support them). It’s not true but to many people it seems to make sense, despite numerous examples to the contrary. Ever heard of Hollywood? Brooklyn? Queens? Little Italy? All communities that thrive despite being part of a larger city. Lots of examples in HRVA too: Ghent, Kempsville, Phoebus, Churchland, Deep Creek, and Pungo are all communities that at some point became part of a larger city and they all have thriving identities and unique characters. So to answer your question: yes it is B.S.

Also, about the “why isn’t it attainable?” It is. Consolidation is a legal mechanism allowed by VA law(§ 15.2-3500). When the majority of voters in two or more adjacent localities approve, it can happen. It’s a joining together of equal entities. It’s not annexation and it’s not one city absorbing another. Moreover, there is no way for politicians or anyone else to stop it or say it can’t happen. (In fact VA law says that if local leaders won’t move forward after a petition has been submitted to the locality, the circuit court will issue an order to hold the vote on consolidation) It’s only a matter of political will and anyone who says it won’t happen is just telling you their cynical prediction of the future, not a fact of law.


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Exactly every city/area already has an identity, or at least areas that are uniquely theirs. Nobody would confuse DT Norfolk and the Oceanfront, even DT Norfolk is different from DT Portsmouth. 

 

[Mountain_Junior]

It all boils down to the right of self governance and the perceived infringement of that right. Norfolk and Portsmouth would probably be the easiest, most logical, cities to combine but everyone from politicians to normal citizens tend to bristle at that idea. It’s so bad that Portsmouth decided to move their casino away from the waterfront so they wouldn’t have to compete with Norfolk, never once considering that the casinos actually compliment each other and that through cooperation, both cities would benefit. If you can’t even get Norfolk and Portsmouth together, it’s not happening with any other city. And unless you plan on firing mortars from the city line and dropping paratroopers on city hall, Va. Beach will not acquiesce to any demands to give up  “power”, whatever that entails. There are, however, examples of regionalism that have worked in practice that if we build off of can sort of morph into a borough like system. Maybe one day after such a borough system has been in place for a period of time it will make sense to remove the independent city status from everyone (we’ll all be long dead and buried), but for the time being, I think a borough system is the best that can be hoped for.

A couple points:
1. “Right of self governance” - again a skewed interpretation that leads to unnecessary apprehension. (I acknowledge that you’re saying the cities have this sense and not that you necessarily think this yourself) Here’s what we have right now: a person from your ward/borough/district of your locality is voted on by you and then goes to represent the interest of that ward/borough/district in the larger locality’s governing body. Here’s what you’d have after consolidation: a person from your ward/borough/district of your locality would be voted on by you and then go to represent the interest of your ward/borough/district in the larger locality’s governing body. It’s the same thing. Bottom line: it’s not a change. Someone from where you live, representing you would be on your locality’s governing body. This is simply a faulty pretext for opposing consolidation. (Again, I understand not your feelings personally)

2. “Everyone from politicians to normal citizens tend to bristle at the idea.” This is not true. Certainly some do, but an actual survey done on this very question by ODU for their 2000 State of the Region report found greater than 50% support across Hampton Roads and 50% or greater support in all of the seven cities except Hampton and Suffolk, which were close. And this survey’s sample size was sufficient to give a 95% confidence level of the results, with a 3% margin of error. This means that while merger’s not overwhelming popular, to say it’s unpopular is clearly wrong. (https://digitalcommons.odu.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1154&context=sor_reports) Also, keep in mind that it had 50% support despite the question being asked on the survey was if people supported the merger of the 14 cities and counties of Hampton Roads, a scenario so unreasonable and impractical, I would’ve probably said no.

Moreover, in the 2001 State of the Region Report (https://digitalcommons.odu.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1148&context=sor_reports), it was reported that in the intervening year “Several elected officials reported being dumbfounded by that result, as they had heard only from individuals who opposed merger.” Although this nugget was buried in the report, it speaks volumes: those who either support consolidation or are open to this idea are far more widespread than most expect.

Likewise, the 2014 HRPDC study (called Envision Hampton Roads) based on interviews and surveys reported that:
“The survey finds that the majority of the region’s residents would prefer that Hampton Roads be more open to change than they believe it is today [and] … that the region should not hold back progress to preserve the independence of our individual cities and counties…”

Unfortunately, because the idea of consolidation is not well-defined and because opposition to it is, people won’t defend it in public. It’s too amorphous and complex. And people genuinely misunderstand what is being discussed. I doubt most folks reading this have actually looked up and read the VA state codes dealing with it. Which is understandable, but it means there is lots of confusion, misunderstanding, and misinformation about it.

Last thing, consolidation has actually had the approval of lots of political leaders and prominent citizens over the years, including mayors and city council members - it’s just usually not while they’re in office. (I’ll provide a list if you like) So I disagree that it’s unpopular. I just think that the opposition is loud and the issue is poorly defined and misunderstood.

3 “Maybe one day after such a borough system has been in place…” - A borough system *is* consolidation. There is no borough system without consolidating localities. This actually proves my point above and I think most folks would say something similar. You’re saying you like the benefits that would come from a borough system, but a merger sounds too extreme. This is because two things are happening here: (1) you intuitively recognize as most do the obvious benefits of our cities not applying their energy and resources to hurting each other and the benefits that come from working together, but (2) the idea of merger has been poisoned by talk of lost identity, higher taxes, and many other undesirable things. That linkage with those undesirable things is very much on purpose so that you don’t even consider consolidation an option, and that way the status quo of middling, mediocre, and unremarkable political leadership you’ve got now feels like the best you’ll get.

My point is that the more you study consolidation and it’s benefits, the more you start to realize the borderline criminal squandering of our region’s potential that has taken place over the last 60-70 years, all so that people in power can stay in power.


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[BFG]

1 hour ago, varider said:

On another note, I absolutely hate the empty lot at 1500 Monticello and would love to see a new proposal for that lot in the near future. 

I still don't know how this never came to fruition.