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Presidential Election

Presidential Election   31 members have voted

  1. 1. Online polls are skewed to their audience, and I have an idea of how our forum will vote, but help me confirm my prediction. What major Presidential candidate do you support?

    • Donald Trump
      6
    • Hillary Clinton
      20
    • Other
      5

Please sign in or register to vote in this poll.

126 posts in this topic

Online polls are skewed to their audience, and I have an idea of how our forum will vote, but help me confirm my prediction.  What major Presidential candidate do you support?

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Good candidate for the coffee shop sub-forum. Can a moderator move this please?

Strap in, this thread is going to be a bumpy ride. 

That said, I'm not very private about my beliefs and I don't mind sharing them or hearing the beliefs of others. I am a business owner who grew up in a family where my mom worked 2 or 3 jobs and we still put food on the table with food stamps. Our town was just an economic calamity. I am, and have always been, a die hard entrepreneur. I have failed at this a dozen or so times. So, I see both sides. I consider myself a supply-side liberal.

Being a supply-side liberal means that I think it is important to keep taxes and regulation on businesses as low as possible, but that I also think its important to provide a strong social safety net and to get the hell out of people's personal lives. That means I believe:

  • Economically
    • Lower taxes on the supply side are generally a good thing. Tax income, not production.
    • Lower regulation is a good thing, provided that is does not endanger the environment, enforce monopolies, or generally reduce competition.
    • Anti-trust laws are, in general, a good thing.
    • Welfare, in general, is a good thing. But I understand that on some level welfare begins to disincentivize work. This is a challenge to overcome. Consider options such as universal basic income or expanding the earned income tax credit (EITC). If you expand the EITC, consider premature dispersment in the form of monthly payments. Many low income families can't stretch 12 months hoping for a tax return. That car payment is due now.
    • Free trade is on a macro scale, a very good thing. But we need to engineer these trade deals with domestic legislation that deals with the inevitable pockets of negative economic impact on the micro scale. If you allow for the import of foreign resources, domestic markets will suffer, and those people will need retraining, relocation and general welfare. The problem is we often do the former (sign the trade deal) while ignoring the latter (passing economically corrective domestic legislation)
  • Socially
    • Women have a right to control their body's reproduction processes. The right to one's own body is as basic as freedom gets.
    • Recreational drug use is fine until you harm someone else with it. We should educate on safe usage. Maybe a mandatory program you have to go through to get your 'drug card'. I don't know. It's a complicated issue.
    • Owning a firearm is fine. But we should regulate the sale and distribution of these weapons as they can be a source of great harm. But I think everyone should have a chance to own one if they go through the required safety training and background checks. I think gunowners should be charged with negligence if they allow their weapons to be stolen easily (for instance, having more than one weapon kept out of a gun safe. I understand the difficulty enforcing this and the importance of quick access to a firearm during a home invasion)
    • We have the economic output in this country to cheaply and effectively shelter and feed every US citizen. The fact that we don't is an utter disgrace.
    • Religion has absolutely no place in public policy. Whether or not a person is religious should have very little baring on your opinion of them as a candidate. If they hold social beliefs that disagree with yours, then you disagree with those beliefs.
    • Who you love is who you love.
  • Environment
    • Listen to the climate scientists. If you think the climate scientists don't understand the climate, who the hell do you think does? It's the best available information.
    • Government needs to invest in renewable research. Society-level projects require society-level investments. Most private organizations are incapable of taking this type of risk.

And that doesn't even begin to touch foreign policy (war, aid, nation building), domestic safety (counter-terrorism, police, poverty and crime, DHS), immigration ... 

Running a nation with 350 million people is complicated. And we get to choose between a circus clown and a dynastic career politician who is the nominee because its basically her turn. 

If you look at the above issues, it is very hard to find a candidate that meets those parameters. I'm not sure if it's the two party system, the "money in politics", the constant tribalism, or all of the above. But it is clear that we have reached a point in American politics where none of the issues actually matter, and people vote with their emotions (red team or blue team). It is not a good situation. 

Edited by castorvx
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2 hours ago, Dale said:

Here's an opportunity to do the right thing. Don't vote!

As much as you might dislike Hillary Clinton, Trump as President would be a disaster that would make eight years of Bush look like a picnic. Clinton might be far from perfect, but no rational person can honestly make the case that she isn't thousands of times preferable to that mentally unstable orange clown.

And a non-vote or a third party vote = a vote for Trump.

I agree that this thread should be moved. Having a political thread in what is normally a calm, peaceful and dignified forum like OUP is probably not such a great idea to begin with.

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Democracy is nose-counting. It is the durable belief that a bad decision made by millions is somehow nobler than a bad idea made by an individual. It is slinking behind a curtain to wreak havoc and washing your hands later. It's state sanctioned crimes against humanity. It's never having to say you're sorry for meddling in the affairs of a neighbor. It's compassion in the form of an anonymous bag of cash on the doorstep. It's being a 'Good Samaritan' at cost to others. It's getting a sticker and thinking you're better than a banana.

 

 

1 hour ago, JFW657 said:

As much as you might dislike Hillary Clinton, Trump as President would be a disaster that would make eight years of Bush look like a picnic. Clinton might be far from perfect, but no rational person can honestly make the case that she isn't thousands of times preferable to that mentally unstable orange clown.

And a non-vote or a third party vote = a vote for Trump.

I agree that this thread should be moved. Having a political thread in what is normally a calm, peaceful and dignified forum like OUP is probably not such a great idea to begin with.

You misunderstand. I dislike voters. ;)

Edited by Dale

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Sticker or no sticker, I know for certain I'm better than a banana.

I've been told as much many times in my life, often by people who really know their stuff about bananas.

 

 

 

 

Edited by JFW657

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This is going to be the first time I can vote for a major election, and i'm voting for Gary Johnson.  I'm studying Political Science and over time I take various political compass tests and I've gone from Socialist Democratic to almost full Libertarian.  The big jump surprises me.even tough Gary wont win, I'll sleep at night knowing that I didn't elect the lesser of two evils.

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5 hours ago, castorvx said:

Good candidate for the coffee shop sub-forum. Can a moderator move this please?

Strap in, this thread is going to be a bumpy ride. 

That said, I'm not very private about my beliefs and I don't mind sharing them or hearing the beliefs of others. I am a business owner who grew up in a family where my mom worked 2 or 3 jobs and we still put food on the table with food stamps. Our town was just an economic calamity. I am, and have always been, a die hard entrepreneur. I have failed at this a dozen or so times. So, I see both sides. I consider myself a supply-side liberal.

Being a supply-side liberal means that I think it is important to keep taxes and regulation on businesses as low as possible, but that I also think its important to provide a strong social safety net and to get the hell out of people's personal lives. That means I believe:

  • Economically
    • Lower taxes on the supply side are generally a good thing. Tax income, not production.
    • Lower regulation is a good thing, provided that is does not endanger the environment, enforce monopolies, or generally reduce competition.
    • Anti-trust laws are, in general, a good thing.
    • Welfare, in general, is a good thing. But I understand that on some level welfare begins to disincentivize work. This is a challenge to overcome. Consider options such as universal basic income or expanding the earned income tax credit (EITC). If you expand the EITC, consider premature dispersment in the form of monthly payments. Many low income families can't stretch 12 months hoping for a tax return. That car payment is due now.
    • Free trade is on a macro scale, a very good thing. But we need to engineer these trade deals with domestic legislation that deals with the inevitable pockets of negative economic impact on the micro scale. If you allow for the import of foreign resources, domestic markets will suffer, and those people will need retraining, relocation and general welfare. The problem is we often do the former (sign the trade deal) while ignoring the latter (passing economically corrective domestic legislation)
  • Socially
    • Women have a right to control their body's reproduction processes. The right to one's own body is as basic as freedom gets.
    • Recreational drug use is fine until you harm someone else with it. We should educate on safe usage. Maybe a mandatory program you have to go through to get your 'drug card'. I don't know. It's a complicated issue.
    • Owning a firearm is fine. But we should regulate the sale and distribution of these weapons as they can be a source of great harm. But I think everyone should have a chance to own one if they go through the required safety training and background checks. I think gunowners should be charged with negligence if they allow their weapons to be stolen easily (for instance, having more than one weapon kept out of a gun safe. I understand the difficulty enforcing this and the importance of quick access to a firearm during a home invasion)
    • We have the economic output in this country to cheaply and effectively shelter and feed every US citizen. The fact that we don't is an utter disgrace.
    • Religion has absolutely no place in public policy. Whether or not a person is religious should have very little baring on your opinion of them as a candidate. If they hold social beliefs that disagree with yours, then you disagree with those beliefs.
    • Who you love is who you love.
  • Environment
    • Listen to the climate scientists. If you think the climate scientists don't understand the climate, who the hell do you think does? It's the best available information.
    • Government needs to invest in renewable research. Society-level projects require society-level investments. Most private organizations are incapable of taking this type of risk.

And that doesn't even begin to touch foreign policy (war, aid, nation building), domestic safety (counter-terrorism, police, poverty and crime, DHS), immigration ... 

Running a nation with 350 million people is complicated. And we get to choose between a circus clown and a dynastic career politician who is the nominee because its basically her turn. 

If you look at the above issues, it is very hard to find a candidate that meets those parameters. I'm not sure if it's the two party system, the "money in politics", the constant tribalism, or all of the above. But it is clear that we have reached a point in American politics where none of the issues actually matter, and people vote with their emotions (red team or blue team). It is not a good situation. 

So... is that a vote for Clinton or Trump??

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I'll probably vote Clinton. But I am not totally decided. I will certainly not vote for Trump, and my fear in not voting for Clinton is I am basically voting for Trump. I don't like that spiel "well it will never change if we keep saying that every election cycle!!". Here's the thing -- if a third party is going to take hold in this country, it's going to happen at the local level. Some Hail Mary shot at the executive branch isn't going to happen. In general, the political discussion in this country SHOULD focus more on the local level, as it has a much more obvious and immediate affect on the lives of the people casting ballots. I don't know how to fix that.

I should say that I am not one of those people who thinks Trump will destroy America. It's hard for one president to do that kind of damage. But I do think it would be an undeniable sign that we have a problem with education and anti-intellectualism in this country. The fact that this dude is even remotely considered viable by anyone is bewildering to me on a level I'm not sure I can describe. It breaks my brain. As a recovering misanthrope, Trump being elected would severely hamper my progress. It's seriously like something right out of the movie Idiocracy. Terrifying.

It's hard to express my feelings about the US electorate without sounding arrogant. I'd actually rather not know who of my friends is voting for him, because it would severely damage my opinion of them and I don't like feeling that way about people I otherwise like. It says that people are far more concerned with the color red than the actual policies practiced and supported by the Republican party. That's a very intellectually void thing to do. On the flip side, I have gained a great deal of respect for my religious friends who refuse to vote for Trump because it so heavily disagrees with their faith.

 

Edited by castorvx
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Which part of town is this being built in?

A bungalow?

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8 hours ago, castorvx said:

 I don't like that spiel "well it will never change if we keep saying that every election cycle!!". Here's the thing -- if a third party is going to take hold in this country, it's going to happen at the local level. Some Hail Mary shot at the executive branch isn't going to happen. In general, the political discussion in this country SHOULD focus more on the local level, as it has a much more obvious and immediate affect on the lives of the people casting ballots. I don't know how to fix that.

EXACTLY!

 

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14 hours ago, JFW657 said:

As much as you might dislike Hillary Clinton, Trump as President would be a disaster that would make eight years of Bush look like a picnic. Clinton might be far from perfect, but no rational person can honestly make the case that she isn't thousands of times preferable to that mentally unstable orange clown.

And a non-vote or a third party vote = a vote for Trump.

I agree that this thread should be moved. Having a political thread in what is normally a calm, peaceful and dignified forum like OUP is probably not such a great idea to begin with.

A non vote or a third party vote= a non vote or a third party vote. 

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11 hours ago, W7edwin said:

...I take various political compass tests...

If anyone's curious about where they stand, this is a great test: https://www.isidewith.com/political-quiz

For the record, last time I took it I got 98% Bernie and 96% Hillary for issues I care about. (And like 4% Trump.) Looking at Hillary's platform (https://www.hillaryclinton.com/issues/), I think she's adopted a lot of stances that anyone center or left would agree with. For me personally, I'm excited to vote for her because of her stances on:

  • Education
  • Healthcare
  • Civil Rights

Also, because we don't often look at the other candidates' platforms, here they are:

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1 hour ago, jack said:

A non vote or a third party vote= a non vote or a third party vote. 

That is what people who throw their vote away in the name of some lofty "principle" will tell themselves if Trump gets elected.

Most of the supposed "reasons" for non-rightwingers to not vote for HRC, are based upon a 20+ year smear campaign of character assassination, half-truths and outright lies.

Today's younger millennial voters were either not born yet, or are too young to remember the way the right-wing propaganda machine savaged her (and the rest of the family) back in the 90's when they occupied the WH, and it has continued non-stop ever since.

Nobody is as dishonest, calculating and conniving as the right has made Hillary Clinton out to be, and only the truly gullible believe it unquestioningly. Of course, that's what the Republicans are banking on.

Meanwhile, their candidate appears to be in some sort of collusion with Russia.

Sheer insanity.

Edited by JFW657
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This was one of the few places on the internet where I can go to without having to be reminded of the election and politics in general. Can a mod move this thread to the coffee house?

4 hours ago, HankStrong said:

Which part of town is this being built in?

A bungalow?

Central Florida Fairgrounds, it's bread and circuses after all.

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^^

I'm voting for the "Orange Faced Clown" or whatever for so many reasons.  For the reasons some of you think people who vote for Trump are either gullible, or something else disparaging or whatever, well, lets look at some stuff below:

1.  Hillary tried to or destroyed her hard drive after she received the subpoena.  The FBI confirmed so many violations she was guilty of to Congress regarding this email issue which is a serious issue make no mistake about it.  It's called the Sunshine Law in Florida.  But what was she hiding?

2.  The media, Dems, and Reps (i.e., the establishment)  all hate Trump

3.  Trump has had the same general stance since the 1980's.  See old Youtube interviews from Oprah, etc.  What's wrong with bringing companies back to the US and create jobs, and to secure the border?

4.  Hillary has tried to get the US to agree to a UN gun registration for all US citizens in violation of the constitution.  She tried it in the '90's and failed; and she tried it under Obama in his first term and failed.  Thank you Harry Reid.  At least Bernie isn't that insidious albeit Socialist. Many are probably wondering what this all means.

5.  Obama enacted an executive order in 2012 giving the executive the power to suspend election- in times of "national crisis" (changed from "war").  He took the power away from Congress illegally.  Race riots, Ebola, the housing crisis?  What other emergencies can the media drum up or magnify to make this stick?

6.  Soros, a Communist, has been funding the Democrats in elections, both locally and nationally, for many years.  I disagree with communism and socialism.

7.  O'Hillary was funding/supplying ISIS with weapons to overthrow Khadafi.  ISIS did, but then turned on them ala Benghazi, which is why O'Hillary said the attack was b/c of a Hollywood movie slamming Muslims, and not a bonafide terrorist attack.  So they let Americans die to avoid being exposed for violating a UN law.  And I don't want to hear about W and how he "lied" to the American people about WMD's, when it was a CIA/Intelligence report confirmed by both parties in Congress and endorsed by HRC before they went in.  And I'll be the last to sing the praises of the UN.

8.  Just b/c Russians apparently hacked the DNC which exposed unfair treatment of Bernie and got that harpie fired doesn't mean Putin and Trump are bed pals. It's more likely Obama is, with that statement he made "in secret" to the Russian ambassador caught on video just prior to the 2012 reelection cycle.

9.  Club Pulse et al:  Are there any American flags displayed anywhere with regards to this tragedy?  Or is this gonna be yet another exercise in semantics the media wants to divide the country on:  A.  Vote "hate crime" if you're a Democrat, therefore we need gun control; or, B.  Vote "terrorist attack" if you're a Republican, therefore Obama and/or O'Hillary are to blame for not just not keeping us safe, but for helping propagate the radicalization problem within Islam ala Libya and ISIS.  Well, the Democrats can't be the blame, therefore it's a hate crime and it's the Republican gun owners' fault b/c they love their guns so much, therefore let's discuss gun control (again).  

10.  Club Pulse:  a muslim male, and his muslim wife, case Club Pulse, but before that also cased Disney, but decided on Pulse instead.  She bought the AR, and he called several news agencies pledging allegiance to the ISIS leader before committing the tragedy.  The FBI, the same one that did not prosecute HRC, had him twice on its watch list but decided to "let him go".  To add insult to injury, his father claims he hated gays (newsflash:  he's muslim), to allow the discussion over how to portray this to continue. Seriously?  It gets better:  there was no direct email or text from ISIS so they were hesitant to label it a terrorist act by ISIS.  See Paragraph 7 above.  And then they want to talk about gun control.  Where's the discussion about firing the people at the FBI who let him go?  Do you know why he didn't shoot up Disney or even Disney Springs?  What or who do you see at Disney that you would never see at Club Pulse?  Answer:  other Muslims.

11.  "Right to Choose":  That seems to be the war cry of the Democrat against the Republicans.  The Republicans are sooo restrictive in their philosophy.  Really? What about the right to buy a 44oz Big Gulp in NYC (for example) (thank Bloomberg)?  People think that "liberal" means Woodstock philosophy.  It doesn't.  It is a more restrictive form of governance.  The bigger the Fed, the less freedom you have.  Who's trying to abridge the right to bear arms?  Democrats.  Believe you me, for all the people committing victimless crimes out there, when the 2nd Amendment falls, the 4th, 5th, and 6th Amendments will soon follow.  Unreasonable searches and seizures galore.  I hope I'm not around when that happens.

12.  Doing drugs is not a victimless crime- not when the druggie has to steal to get $$$ for his/her habit.

Conclusion:  All that being said, it is way deeper than democrat vs republican, and if you doubt that, and want to go back to your red/blue visors then so be it.  The establishment wants to confiscate all guns.  Why?  Because they are a threat to the establishment's power.  Trump has exposed the establishment during this election cycle and most of you want to revert back and curl up with your blanket provided for by Big Brother.  It's like The Matrix but many of you don't want to take the red pill even though you know the difference.

 

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[Deleted. No one is going to gain anything from this.]

Edited by castorvx

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Because conservatives are killing uteruses. Please refer back to my descriptions of democracy.

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15 minutes ago, Dale said:

Because conservatives are killing uteruses. Please refer back to my descriptions of democracy.

Yeaaah this thread is useless 

Edit: deleted my post because I don't care to convince anyone. Let's talk about buildings and stuff.

 

Edited by castorvx

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2 hours ago, Dale said:

Because conservatives are killing uteruses. Please refer back to my descriptions of democracy.

Nonsense. I have no doubt your descriptions of democracy are well intentioned.

Edited by prahaboheme

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I'm pretty sure that our form of democracy in this country is a sham. I think the 1992 election which saw the FBI harassing H Ross Perot, the independent, and caused him to drop out of the race is proof.  That is one of the main reasons I am voting for Trump. Anybody who watches old YouTube videos of interviews with him from the 1980s will see that he's the only genuine candidate running because he has been consistent for over 30 years. If the establishment hates him because they can't control him then he gets my vote because he is doing something right. It's as simple as that.

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^^

Fascinating.   Reading some of the later comments from forumers tuning out of this thread and the reasons given.  It confirms everything they say about the left. 

One more point:  if anyone can sit here and justify or condone what BLM protesters did in Chicago at the Uof I Circle Campus when they raided the arena where Trump was going to speak, in violation of Federal law, then you are a leftist hell bent on censorship of anyone who disagree with you.  That's what the Communist Party and Hitler did in their respective countries, and the Comminists have done it here before back in the Sixties, in Chicago.

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12 hours ago, prahaboheme said:

Nonsense. I have no doubt your descriptions of democracy are well intentioned.

And I have no doubt that you cannot not meddle.

15 hours ago, castorvx said:

[Deleted. No one is going to gain anything from this.]

I disagree. Let's have some strident discussion. It won't kill anyone.

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On 9/23/2016 at 0:18 AM, castorvx said:

I'll probably vote Clinton. But I am not totally decided. I will certainly not vote for Trump, and my fear in not voting for Clinton is I am basically voting for Trump. I don't like that spiel "well it will never change if we keep saying that every election cycle!!". Here's the thing -- if a third party is going to take hold in this country, it's going to happen at the local level. Some Hail Mary shot at the executive branch isn't going to happen.

The thing is at the local level, those with the beliefs of the third party are gladly accepted and supported by the Republicans. Gary Johnson and Bill Weld both were elected (and re-elected) governors of solid blue states with completely libertarian ideas under the red ticket, and when you ask them why, they wanted the resources of the republican party as they knew it made them more likely to succeed. Ron Paul as well. At the national level, the party won't let them be on the ticket, but at the local level, they're fine with it, especially when they aren't predicting a win in the area otherwise. So the answer is yes, its happened at a local level, many, many times already.

Also funding and donations for the future cycles will be boosted to allow them to have a better chance in the future if they can hit new milestones in number of votes, along with the major parties somewhat adjusting their policies to try to gain back support. The other parties know people WANT to vote for a candidate who has a good chance of winning, and if they see 15% of people are willing to "throw their vote away" because the candidate they chose is so bad, they'll likely pick a different kind of person this time. The dems aren't happy with HRC either, but if we elect her, we'll be telling them thats what wins elections, please keep putting up candidates who are for that level of corruption, we the American people don't care.

I'm personally of the belief that Clinton and Trump's ACTUAL policies they'll push for are nearly the same, so why not show my dissatisfaction and vote 3rd party?

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12 hours ago, jrs2 said:

I'm pretty sure that our form of democracy in this country is a sham. I think the 1992 election which saw the FBI harassing H Ross Perot, the independent, and caused him to drop out of the race is proof.  That is one of the main reasons I am voting for Trump. Anybody who watches old YouTube videos of interviews with him from the 1980s will see that he's the only genuine candidate running because he has been consistent for over 30 years. If the establishment hates him because they can't control him then he gets my vote because he is doing something right. It's as simple as that.

^^

Fascinating.   Reading some of the later comments from forumers tuning out of this thread and the reasons given.  It confirms everything they say about the left. 

One more point:  if anyone can sit here and justify or condone what BLM protesters did in Chicago at the Uof I Circle Campus when they raided the arena where Trump was going to speak, in violation of Federal law, then you are a leftist hell bent on censorship of anyone who disagree with you.  That's what the Communist Party and Hitler did in their respective countries, and the Comminists have done it here before back in the Sixties, in Chicago.

Right-wingers and right leaning Libertarians love kooky conspiracy theories like Ross Perot being harassed by the FBI, etc., while in fact, it is they and their own political leaders who engage the most in skullduggery and underhanded political tactics.

Dallas Observer: Perotnoia

As for BLM... who, other than you, even brought them up?

I think they're just another typical group of agenda pushing opportunists, much like the tea party and Occupy.

 

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