Presidential Election

[jrs2]

CNN declaration.  Their post debate poll.  500 people.  41% Dems.  26% Reps.  and of the remainder they claimed were independent, many were Dems.  The criteria they used to declare that HRC won the debate.

BTW, this isn't High School.  Oh wow, she's a good debater, she gets a B and that will benefit our country and create jobs and bring back jobs, right? Wrong.  Boy I love the way she debated during the Benghazi inquiry.  I also love the way she debated herself out of the email server issue.

Trump had the Melbourne rally and 15k showed up.  another 12k weren't let in.  Since 2016 began, a total of 12k have gone to HRC's rallies.

All Trump has to do is replay on commercials the FBI probe Q&A with Congress where the director answers Yes to so many violations she committed ala the emails, and have the family members of the four Americans who Obama and Hillary betrayed in Benghazi on commercials.  And also her Foundation scandal.  Also show the five workers who pled the Fifth.

[John Hargrove]

I feel like the Obama is a secret Muslim thing is from people watching too much Homeland or something. "Connecting the dots" can also mean "finding patterns where none exist". We humans are good at that. There is as much evidence for Obama being Muslim as there is Bush being a Muslim.

I would say that it might partially be caused by racism, which is the irrational hatred of a person for attributes outside of their control that are not determining factors for their actions -- but I'd say it's just as likely that the right wing rage media machine that has been churning nonstop for 50 years is just that good at engineering paranoia and hatred toward anyone not conservative. I do think that Obama's name (Hussein, Obama), his skin color (noticeably not white), his mannerisms (intellectual speaker, pronounces some names differently than most Americans, sometimes in an effort to use the local pronunciation) do make him "different" enough from your average white republican voter for it to encourage the tribalism/bias.

Is it racism? Maybe. Maybe not. But at the very least it's a whole lot of other superficial things that are just as stupid as racism.

18 hours ago, jrs2 said:

Secret Muslim?  Don't know, but he and HRC energized ISIS in Libya; made excuses for Arabic attackers (ISIS) (for two weeks) in Benghazi and allowed four Americans to die as a result.  "Quack."  He bows to a foreign Islamic head of state, Saudi Arabia.  "Quack."  All the drama with Israel since he took office, an ally whom the Muslim world wants to see destroyed.   "Quack."  The horrible Iran deal.  "Quack."  There's just so much.  At the least he's a panderer, and that DeSouza book from a few years ago predicted it right on his strategy to strengthen the Middle East.  And extremists are everywhere now and they are energizing sleeper cells in the US.  And then he has the audacity to bring up gun control.  Oh, ok.

I'm trying my best to be respectful here, but this right here ^ is that whole low effort "Is such and such true? I'm not saying it is, but here are some unrelated facts" things that misinformed voters do. It comes off as skeptical and thoughtful but it really is neither. Literally any other Dem President would have made those decisions. But because it involves Muslims (pro tip: all middle east politics involve Muslims) and Obama, suddenly a bunch of pseudo intellectuals are like "What a coincidence! Wake up sheeple!"

The unfortunate thing here is that there are plenty of real, legitimate reasons to disagree with things the President has done. You can effectively and accurately criticize the President without any of the religious fear mongering or baseless superficial accusations.

[jrs2]

Just now, castorvx said:

I feel like the Obama is a secret Muslim thing is from people watching too much Homeland or something. "Connecting the dots" can also mean "finding patterns where none exist". We humans are good at that. There is as much evidence for Obama being Muslim as there is Bush being a Muslim.

I would say that it might partially be caused by racism, which is the irrational hatred of a person for attributes outside of their control that are not determining factors for their actions -- but I'd say it's just as likely that the right wing rage media machine that has been churning nonstop for 50 years is just that good at engineering paranoia and hatred toward anyone not conservative. I do think that Obama's name (Hussein, Obama), his skin color (noticeably not white), his mannerisms (intellectual speaker, pronounces some names differently than most Americans, sometimes in an effort to use the local pronunciation) do make him "different" enough from your average white republican voter for it to encourage the tribalism/bias.

Is it racism? Maybe. Maybe not. But at the very least it's a whole lot of other superficial things that are just as stupid as racism.

I'm trying my best to be respectful here, but this right here ^ is that whole low effort "Is such and such true? I'm not saying it is, but here are some unrelated facts" things that misinformed voters do. It comes off as skeptical and thoughtful but it really is neither. Literally any other Dem President would have made those decisions. But because it involves Muslims (pro tip: all middle east politics involve Muslims) and Obama, suddenly a bunch of pseudo intellectuals are like "What a coincidence! Wake up sheeple!"

The unfortunate thing here is that there are plenty of real, legitimate reasons to disagree with things the President has done. You can effectively and accurately criticize the President without any of the religious fear mongering or baseless superficial accusations.

I agree with you, but for the time, when the US was hunting Osama Bin Laden, and ousted Saddam Hussein, and the presidential candidate was Barack Hussein Obama, seriously?  The first candidate ever to have a foreign name too?  Not that easy to ignore I don't think.  If he was a conservative Republican the media would have fried him.

You need to look at the definition of conservative and liberal.  examine that definition from 50 years ago and today.  it hasn't changed.  liberal is left wing and communist.  beyond the label, just look at the affiliations of the Democratic party this past 8 years or even throughout the past 50.  

Time to stop drinking the cool aid, but you yourself questioned why globalism was bad.  Tell that to a minority jobless worker who is unemployed, going through foreclosure because you enjoy buying the Iphone for cheap b/c it's made in China.

[bulldogger]

Who cares if someone is Muslim?  Are you Christian?  Does that make you better?  Absolutely not.  The fact that both sides are arguing whether Obama is Muslim or not has no bearing on whether he should be judged as good or bad.  You are arguing about the religion of someone and showing bigotry either way.  Arguing that he is a Muslim and that makes him bad is bigotry.  Arguing that he is not a Muslim and that he is a Christian and saying that is better... is also bigotry!!! 

The first candidate to have a foreign name?  What exactly is a foreign name in the United States of America?  Foreign to your ideals?  Foreign to what exactly.

You are saying the liberals today are communist and want the government to own the means of production.  That means that Democrats want the government to take ownership of the factories and in some of today's environment the government should take over the digital marketplace.  By definition, is that correct?

 

[John Hargrove]

42 minutes ago, bulldogger said:

The fact that both sides are arguing whether Obama is Muslim or not has no bearing on whether he should be judged as good or bad.  You are arguing about the religion of someone and showing bigotry either way.  Arguing that he is a Muslim and that makes him bad is bigotry.  Arguing that he is not a Muslim and that he is a Christian and saying that is better... is also bigotry!!! 

Mostly true. I think people who are religious (I'm not, I'm atheist) think it matters because they believe (rightly or wrongly) that morality is at least somewhat attributable to religious belief. So, if you are a person who believes a person's beliefs as a religious person may dictate their decision making, it is acceptable to consider their religion when voting for them.

I mean, in some ways, I tend not to vote for Christians. Not BECAUSE they are Christian, but because I'm pro-choice and being an outwardly religious Christian person means you are likely to be in disagreement with my views on reproductive rights.

So, a person's religious beliefs should certainly be able to be discussed. That said, there is zero point zero evidence for Obama being a closet Muslim or whatever. It's just more politically motivated nonsense.

 

[jrs2]

^^

Bulldogger:  For the record, I am of foreign descent.  It is typical left PC bologna to complain about identifying someone's affiliations even if it was only based on their name, which in this case it wasn't.  It's an unwarranted argument, especially when you are talking about the presidency at a time when we have troops in the Middle East as a result of the largest Islamic terrorist attack to hit our shores back in 2001.

^^

Castorvx:  Come on, Castorvx, let's keep this real.  Obama vs Bush.  Really?

Below are some factors regarding your statement that there's just as much evidence for both to be painted a Muslim:

1.  Name:  Obama- yes.  "Obama" sounds like "Osama" as in "Bin Laden" (even though Kenyan); but hold on: "Barack's" origin is half Arabic; "Hussein" is full Arabic; so 1 1/2 of BHO's three names are Arabic; "Bush"- no way

2.  Father:  Obama- yes- father born a Muslim and became an atheist (by Obama's own words; he even wrote a book about his father); Bush- HW was Christian or Protestant or whatever; CIA assassin

3.  Bowing to an Islamic head of state:  Obama- yes; Bush- no way

4.  Making excuses for a terrorist attack: Obama- yes- Benghazi; Bush- LMFAO;  he invaded two Islamic countries as the result- whether wrongly or rightly

5.  Iran deal:  Obama- yes; Bush- no way he would have made that deal

6.  Dissing Israel early on:  Obama- yes; Bush- no way, not ever

Clearly the comparison is apples to oranges.

So the conclusion is that it was not an unreasonable evaluation to make against BHO, because just those six points above show the duck quacking...and quacking alot...and still quacking.  Anyway, no knock against Muslims otherwise (except for those trying to kill us).  The point is that it was reasonable to do an inquiry on BHO and there was no motivation beyond who the person was based on his background (and politics). If people can't see that and still want to throw labels around as PC ammunition to quell detractors, then so be it.  But you can't ignore the evidence above.

[JFW657]

Re: jrs2's comment - "The first candidate ever to have a foreign name too?  Not that easy to ignore I don't think."

Oh, really?

(George) Washington - The name itself is a name of origin and refers to place names in England, such asWashington, Tyne and Wear, from which the ancestors of George Washington are said to have come. The word became a surname in 1183 when William de Hertburn took the name William de Wassyngtona.

(John) Adams - A patronymic of Adam, which is of English origin, and is from the Hebrew personal name "Adam", which was borne, according to Genesis, by the first man. The name is of uncertain etymology; however, it is often said to be from the Hebrew "adama", earth.

(James) Madison - Surname of English origin, which has become a popular given name in the United States. Madison, commonly spelled Maddison in Northeastern England, is a variant of Mathieson, meaning son of Matthew, although possibly occasionally standing for son of Maddy, where Maddy is a pet form of Maud.

(James) Monroe - From a Scottish surname meaning "from the mouth of the Roe". The Roe is a river in Ireland. Two famous bearers of the surname were American president James Monroe (1758-1831) and American actress Marilyn Monroe 

(Martin) Van Buren - Dutch-origin surname meaning "of Buren," Buren being a small city in the Dutch province of Gelderland. The name has a certain prominence in Holland because Anna van Egmond en Buren was the first wife of William of Orange, the founder of the Dutch royal family.

(John) Tyler - Transferred use of the surname derived from the Old French tieuleor, tieulier (tiler, tile maker) and the Middle English tyler, tylere (a brick, a tile). Thename originated as an occupational name for a tile or brick maker or layer.

(James K.) Polk - Scottish: reduced form of Pollock. German (of Slavic origin): from an altered pet form of the Slavic personal name Boleslav, composed of the elements bole 'great', 'large' + slav 'glory'.

(Zachary) Taylor - Originated as an occupational surname (meaning tailor) in England It is derived from the Old French tailleur ("cutter"), which is in turn derived from the Late Latin taliator, from taliare ("to cut").

(Millard) Fillmore - English: from a Norman personal name, Filimor, composed of the Germanic elements filu ‘very’ + mari, meri ‘famous’.

(Franklin) Pierce - English, Welsh, and Irish: from the personal name Piers, the usual Norman vernacular form of Peter. In Wales this represents a patronymic ap Piers. In Ireland it represents a reduced Anglicized form of Gaelic Mac Piarais 'son of Piaras', a Gaelicized form of Piers.

(James) Buchanan - Scottish: habitational name from Buchanan, a place near Loch Lomond, perhaps named with Gaelic buth chanain 'house of the canon'.

(Abraham) Lincoln - From a surnamewhich was originally from the name of a city in England, derived from Brythonic lindo "lake, pool" and Latin colonia "colony".

(Andrew) Johnson - English origin. The name itself is a patronym of the givenname John, literally meaning "son of John". The name John derives from Latin Johannes, which is derived through Greek Ἰωάννης Iōannēs from Hebrew יוחנן Yohanan,meaning "Yahweh has favoured".

(Ulysses S.) Grant - English and (especially) Scottish (of Norman origin), and French: nickname from Anglo-Norman French graund, graunt 'tall', 'large' (Old French grand, grant, from Latin grandis), given either to a person of remarkable size, or else in a relative way to distinguish two bearers of the same personal name, often ...

(Rutherford B.) Hayes - In Ireland, Hayes originated as a Gaelic polygenetic surname "O hAodha", meaning descendant of Aodh ("fire"), or of Aed, an Irish mythological god. Septs in most counties anglicised "O hAodha" to "Hayes". In County Cork, it became "O'Hea".

(William) McKinley (1897 - 1901) Recorded as McKinlay and McKinley, this is a surname of early medieval Gaelic origins. It may be either Irish or Scottish and derives from the pre 10th century name Mac Fhionnlaigh, meaning the son of the white skinned warrior from "fionn", meaning fair or white skinned, and "laoch", a warrior.

(Theodore) Roosevelt - From a Dutch surname meaning "rose field". This name is often given in honour of American presidents Theodore Roosevelt (1858-1919) or Franklin D. 
Roosevelt (1882-1945)

(Warren G.) Harding - English (mainly southern England and South Wales) and Irish: from the Old English personal name Hearding, originally a patronymic from Hard 1. ... North German and Dutch: patronymic from a short form of any of the various Germanic compound personal names beginning with hard 'hardy', 'brave', 'strong'.

(Herbert) Hoover - Dutch: from Middle Dutch huve, a measure of land area (compare German Huber) + -er, suffix of agent nouns; a status name for a landowner or a prosperous small farmer.

(Dwight D.) Eisenhower - A surname derived from the German word Eisenhauer, meaning "iron hewer".

(John F.) Kennedy - Derived either from Ó Cinnéide meaning grandson of Cinnédidh, or ceann and éidigh meaning "ugly head." Kennedy, alternately O'Kennedy and Kennedie, is a surname of Irish and Scottish origin that has also been used as a given name.

(Richard M.) Nixon - Northern English, Scottish, and northern Irish: patronymic from the Middle English personal name Nik(k)e, a short form of Nicholas. French: variant of a contracted form of Nickesson, a pet form of Nick, from Nicolas.

(Jimmy) Carter - Carter is a family name, and also may be a given name. Carter is of Irish, Scottish and English origin and is an occupational name given to one who transports goods by cart or wagon originally believed to be of Gaelic and Celtic origins and a possible form of the names McCarthy, McArthur, McCartney or McCarter.

(Ronald) Reagan - An Irish last name meaning "little ruler," now used as both a boys' and girls' name. It was popularized as a first name by Ronald Reagan's U.S. presidency. For girls, it's also a variation on Regan, one of the daughters in Shakespeare's King Lear.

(George H.W./W.) Bush - English: topographic name for someone who lived by a bushy area or thicket, from Middle English bush(e) 'bush' (probably from Old Norse buskr, or an unrecorded Old English busc); alternatively, it may derive from Old Norse Buski used as a personal name. Americanized spelling of German Busch.

(Bill) Clinton - an English surname, indicating one's ancestors came from English places called Glympton or Glinton .Clinton has frequently been used as a given name since the late 19th century. 

(Barack) Obama - Obama is an ancient Kenyan surname. The name is found frequently among the Luo, the third largest ethnic group in Kenya. It is believed that the name derived from the root word obam, which means “to lean or bend.” Obama's middle name Hussein is the first name of his paternal grandfather.

And that only applies to their last names. I'm fairly certain the first names have pretty varied ethnic origins too.

So you might want to rethink your stance on the relevance of Obama's "foreign name".

Of course, because all those foreign Presidential names prior to Obama originated in countries where the population was 100% Caucasian, that may well make all the difference with you and your fellow tea partiers.

[Dale]

Hehe, I've never met a real atheist. Still don't think I've met a real atheist.

[John Hargrove]

3 hours ago, Dale said:

Hehe, I've never met a real atheist. Still don't think I've met a real atheist.

Next up: religion!

 

[Boomer136]

A "foreign name" makes me laugh. What that really means is a non-anglo/saxon name. Tatanka Iyokata probably sounds foreign but is straight up, old school American. I remember a co-worker going on and on about people learning the "language of the land" and vehemently denouncing anyone who didn't speak it. I quietly asked if he was talking about Timucua which I readily admitted to not knowing. 

[jrs2]

On September 30, 2016 at 10:17 PM, castorvx said:

Next up: religion!

 

LOL.  Atheism actually IS a religion.  it's a belief taken on faith (actually a BIG leap of faith) that the time-space bubble that we exist in, which is 94 billion light years across and is still expanding, spontaneously generated on its own out of nothingness for no reason without intelligent design.  

[John Hargrove]

Must ... Resist ... 

[JFW657]

 

 

Everybody say rAMEN!!!!

[jrs2]

^^

I feel like a broken record here...

[Dale]

On ‎9‎/‎30‎/‎2016 at 11:04 AM, jrs2 said:

CNN declaration.  Their post debate poll.  500 people.  41% Dems.  26% Reps.  and of the remainder they claimed were independent, many were Dems.  The criteria they used to declare that HRC won the debate.

BTW, this isn't High School.  Oh wow, she's a good debater, she gets a B and that will benefit our country and create jobs and bring back jobs, right? Wrong.  Boy I love the way she debated during the Benghazi inquiry.  I also love the way she debated herself out of the email server issue.

Trump had the Melbourne rally and 15k showed up.  another 12k weren't let in.  Since 2016 began, a total of 12k have gone to HRC's rallies.

All Trump has to do is replay on commercials the FBI probe Q&A with Congress where the director answers Yes to so many violations she committed ala the emails, and have the family members of the four Americans who Obama and Hillary betrayed in Benghazi on commercials.  And also her Foundation scandal.  Also show the five workers who pled the Fifth.

She basically took a nap in the Benghazi hearings.

On ‎9‎/‎30‎/‎2016 at 10:17 PM, castorvx said:

Next up: religion!

 

YES!

[nite owℓ]

They have cut off our nose to spite our face.

[jrs2]

On October 2, 2016 at 8:27 PM, JFW657 said:

disregard comment.  I can't get it to just post a regular message; it keeps replying to JFW657.  This is jrs2.  it won't even let me type anything below this box where my comments are supposed to go.  can an administrator assist me?

[jrs2]

^^

I think it's on my browser I was using, Safari.

[Dale]

How do you guys feel about Mica losing ?

[JFW657]

Mica was not bad for a Republican and did a great job getting commuter rail here. I liked him well enough, but voted against him in order (I hoped) to get more Democrats in Congress for HRC to work with, though we see how that fell through. 

But in a way, I'm still glad he lost just because that means one less Trump friendly Republican in Congress and hopefully, it will be that much easier for the Dems to obstruct everything Trump tries to do, just like the GOP did to Obama.

[spenser1058]

First, if you were a Trump voter, congratulations. I'm very afraid but, despite everything, the Republic endures. We'll be the loyal opposition and try again in four years.

What makes me very, very happy is my hometown. The same place that once voted for Barry Goldwater went for Hillary 60-40, and, more importantly, returned Linda Stewart to the FL Senate. We also finally sent John Mica packing (I applaud his hard work on transportation issues for many years but his stance on social issues has long been an anathema to the Orlando United we stand for). Val Demings and Darren Soto will also be representing the Orlando I'm now so proud of in Congress.

Because of the changes to the charter, we may go backwards, but progressives will just have to work harder than ever to let others like us know our candidates.

All in all, I'm optimistic because my Orlando is better than ever today.

 

[JFW657]

Agree on Linda Stewart. Glad to see her back.

Too bad the GOP still controls Tallahassee.

Hoping for a Dem Governor with coattails in '18.

[John Hargrove]

 

10 hours ago, spenser1058 said:

First, if you were a Trump voter, congratulations. I'm very afraid but, despite everything, the Republic endures. We'll be the loyal opposition and try again in four years.

What makes me very, very happy is my hometown. The same place that once voted for Barry Goldwater went for Hillary 60-40, and, more importantly, returned Linda Stewart to the FL Senate. We also finally sent John Mica packing (I applaud his hard work on transportation issues for many years but his stance on social issues has long been an anathema to the Orlando United we stand for). Val Demings will also be representing the Orlando I'm now so proud of in Congress.

Because of the changes to the charter, we may go backwards, but progressives will just have to work harder than ever to let others like us know our candidates.

All in all, I'm optimistic because my Orlando is better than ever today.

 

I share your sentiment. As the numbers came in on Tuesday night I just kept saying, "just be happy we're on the blue island". Orlando is refreshingly tolerant and progressive while sitting in a sea of red. If Florida is where I live, Orlando is where I want to be.

2018 is going to matter a lot, and it's going to be tough. Democrats seem to have trouble turning out for midterms. And what really matters is who is in control during the 2020 census. Something the 2018 elections will have a big impact on as well.

I will fight diligently but I am not hopeful. Hard to be hopeful after Tuesday.

[JFW657]

The FBI was granted a FISA warrant today to look on Trump's private server over his possible ties to Russian banks and illegal banking activity.

Plus, members of his campaign staff were in contact with Russian agents during the election.

This is being reported today in Salon.

Trump might not even make it to his inauguration.

[nite owℓ]

On 11/10/2016 at 8:10 AM, spenser1058 said:

First, if you were a Trump voter, congratulations. I'm very afraid but, despite everything, the Republic endures. We'll be the loyal opposition and try again in four years.

You're very noble, but in my opinion, there is absolutely nothing about this situation to congratulate anyone about it. I'm very worried about what a Trump presidency would do to erode the USA's leadership role in the rest of the world. Not to mention the social ramifications it would have here at home. People wanted change so desperately that they chose to "halve the child in two". IMO, anyone who really loved and valued their country as much as they claim to would never do such a thing. Not to mention, destroying what should have been a historic moment for electing a qualified person as our first woman president is so hateful it's grotesque. I'm in mourning for the progress I thought we had made in this country.