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      WARNING!   07/26/16

      By reading or participating in the Coffee House forum, you are acknowledging that some topics may be highly controversial in nature. While we make every attempt to ensure that no one and no groups are offended as a result of discussions contained within, we unfortunately can make no guarantees. Participate in threads contained within this forum at your own risk.
CarolinaDaydreamin

Charlotte Protests/Riots Discussion

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9 minutes ago, CarolinaDaydreamin said:

Tonights situation couldn't have been more poorly handled by CMPD and Mayor Roberts. My opinions on her leadership have taken a drastic turn. Sad night for my city. 

How so? Just curious, I agree it was poorly handled as well. They took way to long to react and clear the streets. Let way too much happen. Silver lining, uptown is going to get some nice new paint and glass everywhere. Epicentre was destroyed.

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Just now, Jayvee said:

How so? Just curious, I agree it was poorly handled as well. They took way to long to react and clear the streets. Let way too much happen. Silver lining, uptown is going to get some nice new paint and glass everywhere. Epicentre was destroyed.

Mayor hasn't even seen the dashcam yet? That should have already been released to public. Completely understaffed as well. Should allow peaceful to protest and begin curfew as soon as violence begins. Seems like she has had no prep for media interviews whatsoever.

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16 minutes ago, CarolinaDaydreamin said:

Mayor hasn't even seen the dashcam yet? That should have already been released to public. Completely understaffed as well. Should allow peaceful to protest and begin curfew as soon as violence begins. Seems like she has had no prep for media interviews whatsoever.

Completely agree on all accounts. There should have been a curfew at 10. Pat issued a state of emergency and the National Guard and Staties are on their way. Never should have came to this. They knew protests were coming and it was peaceful for a long time then turned into a riot. Immediate action should have been taken. They are STILL just ho hum mulling around. It was handled so unbelievably poorly. 

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5 hours ago, 11 HouseBZ said:

I'm not sure if many on here know the logistics of handling a situation like this. Police prepared hours in advanced and had to make back up plans for the most likely scenarios. As soon as the situation changed from peaceful to violent they immediately switched plans. But it requires at least a little bit of time to get those people and resources to the right locations to begin implementing the change of plans. If people come for the purpose of being violent the police can only prevent so much. Most of riot control is reactive. So as soon as the situation became violent they issued the call to shut down uptown.

A lot of the things mentioned above about places being looted and damaged were all happening at the same time, and if you look at the locations, are all in different directions which severely stretched their resources. They hired back a lot of police and firemen to prepare for this and were still overwhelmed. Part of this was the agitators throwing rocks and molotov cocktails at them while trying to stop them from destroying property, evacuate injured personnel and rioters, move the crowd, etc.

I feel they handled it well considering what they were up against. As far as recent riots go, this one was kept relatively in control (using this phrase loosely, I realize someone was shot). In what ways do you think they should have reacted differently? Or realistically could of better handled it? 

They should have had the state on stand by and got them involved way earlier. It was 2 hours after it got violent that they reacted to that. A true shutdown/curfew order was never actually given. They should have in advanced setup a 10pm curfew, no matter what. 

Uptown looks like a war zone. 3rd ward has broken glass everywhere. College and the Epi are destroyed, Tryon has broken glass. It's a disaster. 

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The state was on standby, they don't announce it on the news when they do it. But when they called, it takes time for those resources to be gathered. National Guardsmen have to respond to their base to be deployed kinda like volunteer firemen. They were probably already at their bases since they were on standby but some of those bases are a little ways away. So again, time.

As far as the curfew, they did enact one. I heard it with my own ears as it went out over the radio as it started to get violent and all of the Tact units were getting overran and physically injured. They said in part "it's time to clear uptown". And they began doing so, even annoucing it on the street as they did so. Some of the supposed sluggishness was because of logistics of moving personnel to the proper locations to do this and personal protection (waiting for back up).

They can't stop every person that wants to be violent from causing mayhem, so damage is going to happen. They're just trying to minimize it. If CMPD were to react too harshly to rioters it typically makes the situation a lot worst. Loosely related example, Birmingham. This is a well studied concept that CMPD had trained quite a bit on. 

They handled this fairly well.

Edited by 11 HouseBZ

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7 minutes ago, 11 HouseBZ said:

The state was on standby, they don't announce it on the news when they do it. But when they called, it takes time for those resources to be gathered. National Guardsmen have to respond to their base to be deployed kinda like volunteer firemen. They were probably already at their bases since they were on standby but some of those bases are a little ways away. So again, time.

As far as the curfew, they did enact one. I heard it with my own ears as it went out over the radio as it started to get violent and all of the Tact units were getting overran and physically injured. They said in part "it's time to clear uptown". And they began doing so, even annoucing it on the street as they did so. Some of the supposed sluggishness was because of logistics of moving personnel to the proper locations to do this and personal protection (waiting for back up).

They handled this fairly well.

The mayor called the Gov. after 10pm. Someone had already been shot WAY PAST that point. The preparation was half assed. Atlanta had a much larger protest a few months ago, State resources were used and order was achieved within a few hours despite over 60,000 protesters. Mayor Reed actually came to the protest and helped to maintain order. I'm not sure if the Government could have performed worse last night. They even wrongly announced a death that they had to retract. Complete amateur hour. Release the tape, mandate a curfew for tonight and quadruple resources, close i-277, epicentre and put officers in lobbies of hotels and buildings. 

 

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12 minutes ago, jtmonk said:

Back to misc uptown projects please, you guys can argue this somewhere else

Is this not misc. Uptown news? I'm not sure there has been a bigger national news story in Charlotte ever so I apologize if this bores you.  

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Regardless of when the state was called, the city can't just call for the National Guard for a peaceful protest. After it got violent, when someone was shot, vandalism started, and the full potential of the current crowd was realized, then they got more agencies involved.

 Atlanta was a much bigger incident so they probably had their Guard already called to respond out earlier because of the size of the crowd. Same for Charlotte during the DNC, the crowd size dictated a part of the decision on how much resources were needed. Charlotte last night maybe had at the most a few thousand which at first did not dictate calling the Guard. If it had remained peaceful, it would have been wasted resources. Their presence will be stepped up tonight for sure and probably with a curfew. Could some of this been done sooner? Maybe. But to say CMPD handled this poorly is uninformed. 

Either way, sorry to jtmonk and others for getting this thread off topic. I apologize if I offended anyone. I'm running on 2 hours sleep after working overtime for said riots. Not with CMPD but with another agency. Back to Misc uptown. Cheers

Edited by 11 HouseBZ

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11 hours ago, CarolinaDaydreamin said:

Mayor hasn't even seen the dashcam yet? That should have already been released to public. Completely understaffed as well. Should allow peaceful to protest and begin curfew as soon as violence begins. Seems like she has had no prep for media interviews whatsoever.

The dashcam video should absolutely not be released to the public.  There is still the possibility for this incident to go to court and the video being released to the public would make it almost impossible to stack an impartial jury.  As in Baltimore, it's possible external pressure forces the hand of charges that later get thrown out of court.  No the police department should or would release something like that.  

I do think the mayor should have been showed the video, if only to prevent her misguided tweet that said: "The community deserves answers and full investigation will ensue. Will be reaching out to community leaders to work together" to which she backpedaled a day later with "I am confident in Clt's strong police/community relations and we will continue to be transparent in releasing info as soon as it's available".  A 5 minute phone call to either the DA or the Police department would have guided her through the process so that she could have posted something much more sensible.  

 

 

 

 

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8 minutes ago, cjd5050 said:

The dashcam video should absolutely not be released to the public.  There is still the possibility for this incident to go to court and the video being released to the public would make it almost impossible to stack an impartial jury.  As in Baltimore, it's possible external pressure forces the hand of charges that later get thrown out of court.  No the police department should or would release something like that.  

I do think the mayor should have been showed the video, if only to prevent her misguided tweet that said: "The community deserves answers and full investigation will ensue. Will be reaching out to community leaders to work together" to which she backpedaled a day later with "I am confident in Clt's strong police/community relations and we will continue to be transparent in releasing info as soon as it's available".  A 5 minute phone call to either the DA or the Police department would have guided her through the process so that she could have posted something much more sensible.  

 

 

 

 

The interest of public safety is every bit as important if not more important than the possibility of influencing a court case IMO.

Edited by CarolinaDaydreamin

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1 hour ago, CarolinaDaydreamin said:

Is this not misc. Uptown news? I'm not sure there has been a bigger national news story in Charlotte ever so I apologize if this bores you.  

You are correct, this thread is about uptown news as well so i apologize for that.  And this topic doesn't bore me at all.  I think it's good to have a place like this to have these type of conversations but when there are 3 threads talking about the same thing it gets a little chaotic. 

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1 hour ago, CarolinaDaydreamin said:

The interest of public safety is every bit as important if not more important than the possibility of influencing a court case IMO.

Sorry but no.

The interest of getting a fair trial for police officer is more important that trying to quell the aggression of those who want to riot and loot.   

The good news here, unlike Baltimore, is Charlotte put body cams on all officers in 2015 and there were multiple officers/views when this happened because they were there to serve a warrant.  Still does not remove the possibility of the Justice Dept or a DA with an agenda from trying to take this to court to appease the masses who can't be bothered to learn the details.   

 

Should be noted that the Police Chief did just say:

“The video does not give me absolute, definitive visual evidence that could confirm that a person is pointing a gun,” Putney said in a morning news conference. “I didn’t see that in the videos I saw.”

So the odds of this going to trial are high from what I can see.  

Edited by cjd5050

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Can I just interject, even though it is a somewhat callous thing to say in this context: Was anyone else in awe at the fact that the riots happened on the brightest, most cosmopolitan-looking, most urban, most well-lit part of Charlotte? Along the Epicenter, the Arena, and the Gold Line? It was completely different environment than the visuals from other cities. 

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10 minutes ago, SgtCampsalot said:

Can I just interject, even though it is a somewhat callous thing to say in this context: Was anyone else in awe at the fact that the riots happened on the brightest, most cosmopolitan-looking, most urban, most well-lit part of Charlotte? Along the Epicenter, the Arena, and the Gold Line? It was completely different environment than the visuals from other cities. 

The city did indeed look beautiful while it was destroyed. At the footsteps of luxury hotels and trendy restaurants. 

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21 minutes ago, SgtCampsalot said:

Can I just interject, even though it is a somewhat callous thing to say in this context: Was anyone else in awe at the fact that the riots happened on the brightest, most cosmopolitan-looking, most urban, most well-lit part of Charlotte? Along the Epicenter, the Arena, and the Gold Line? It was completely different environment than the visuals from other cities. 

It's an interesting point/juxtaposition. The only other similar incident I can think of would be Dallas. The other riots have tended to be in neighborhoods like Tuesday night's protest

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43 minutes ago, cjd5050 said:

Sorry but no.

The interest of getting a fair trial for police officer is more important that trying to quell the aggression of those who want to riot and loot.   

The good news here, unlike Baltimore, is Charlotte put body cams on all officers in 2015 and there were multiple officers/views when this happened because they were there to serve a warrant.  Still does not remove the possibility of the Justice Dept or a DA with an agenda from trying to take this to court to appease the masses who can't be bothered to learn the details.   

 

Should be noted that the Police Chief did just say:

“The video does not give me absolute, definitive visual evidence that could confirm that a person is pointing a gun,” Putney said in a morning news conference. “I didn’t see that in the videos I saw.”

So the odds of this going to trial are high from what I can see.  

So in a nutshell.. here you have a Chief of Police having what amounts to be an NFL "under the hood" frame by frame look-see, and still is unable to definitively determine that a gun is, in fact, being pointed .  While in real time an officer makes a decision that there is a pointed gun, in an "open carry" jurisdiction, and then uses deadly force to put a quick end to what is perceived to be an armed, immanent threat.  I guess I'm wondering if our men & women in blue have lost sight of the fact that they, in addition to enforcing laws, are also peacekeepers.      

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38 minutes ago, Bikeguy said:

So in a nutshell.. here you have a Chief of Police having what amounts to be an NFL "under the hood" frame by frame look-see, and still is unable to definitively determine that a gun is, in fact, being pointed .  While in real time an officer makes a decision that there is a pointed gun, in an "open carry" jurisdiction, and then uses deadly force to put a quick end to what is perceived to be an armed, immanent threat.  I guess I'm wondering if our men & women in blue have lost sight of the fact that they, in addition to enforcing laws, are also peacekeepers.      

First off, honest question, do you even understand what Open Carry means?  

Open Carry is the opposite of concealed carry.  The difference is only by if a firearm is visible or not when on a person.  It has nothing to do with 'pointing a gun' as you suggest.  

What the Police Chief said was there was not “absolute, definitive visual evidence that could confirm that a person is pointing a gun. I didn’t see that in the videos I saw.”  It should also be noted that he later commented that the “totality” of the evidence supports the police conclusion that officers faced an imminent, deadly threat.

Now if you wanted to bother in breaking down what happened from an objective perspective, you would be able to see that there is a spectrum from having a visible firearm that's holstered in the open and pointing the gun at a police officer.  You might be bothered to ask questions like:

  • Where was the gun when the police first approached him?  
  • Did he reach for the gun after the police engaged him?  
  • Did he not follow the commands of the police between first being engaged and reaching for his gun?

I could list several more but it's doubtful you are willing to consider...so it's wasted keystrokes.  

While you are wondering if police have lost sight that they are in fact peacekeepers, I am curious as to when people thought it became acceptable to not listen to police orders and think reaching or handling a gun is something that would produce a positive result.  

These opinions by the way are from someone who has never and will never own a gun.  They do come from someone with an ounce of common sense and a pound of respect for law enforcement however.  

 

 

 

Edited by cjd5050
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I have additional questions:

Do officers or plain clothes officers usually serve warrants?

When the officer approached, at what point did he make it CLEAR that he was in fact an officer? (Assuming he was in plain clothes as I read somewhere)

If Mr Scott was never their target as reported, what caused police to confront Mr. Scott in the 1st place?

Now, I know that without a full report there are no factual answers. Those are just questions I personally have.

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22 minutes ago, NY+SC=NC said:

I have additional questions:

Do officers or plain clothes officers usually serve warrants?

When the officer approached, at what point did he make it CLEAR that he was in fact an officer? (Assuming he was in plain clothes as I read somewhere)

If Mr Scott was never their target as reported, what caused police to confront Mr. Scott in the 1st place?

Now, I know that without a full report there are no factual answers. Those are just questions I personally have.

Good questions.  

It's not uncommon for police officers who are not on patrol to wear plain clothes under a police vest and badge.  Like being able to understand the difference between open carry and holding a gun, there is a difference between plain clothes and undercover.  

As for making it clear, I think the collection of police officers including multiple patrol officers in uniform would make it pretty clear.  Also, you know, the police cars that are providing the dashcam video.

I don't know what caused Mr. Scott to panic.  I do know Scott was convicted in April 2004 of a misdemeanor assault with a deadly weapon charge in Mecklenburg County. At the same time he was charged with but dismissed felony assault with a deadly weapon with intent to kill, and misdemeanors assault on a child under 12, assault on a female and communicating threats.  I also know that Scott also was charged with aggravated assault in 1992 and assault with intent to kill in 1995.  

So maybe this 'family man' and 'father' was into something he should not have been and figured the police were for him?  That's one guess.  Or maybe he thought it would be a good idea to take out a gun on a group of police officers?  The jury is still out on that.  

I have some additional questions.  Questions like why would the family lawyer when asked at the family press conference if the family would drop their claim that he was holding a book once they viewed the video and could confirm Scott was holding a gun.  The lawyer refused to do so.  Things that make you go hmmmm?  Amiright?

Edited by cjd5050
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After speaking with Mr. Scott's neighbors, he was out waiting in his car every day for his one kid to get off the bus so that they could go straight to another destination each day. They said he was almost always reading a book while waiting. 

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5 minutes ago, SgtCampsalot said:

After speaking with Mr. Scott's neighbors, he was out waiting in his car every day for his one kid to get off the bus so that they could go straight to another destination each day. They said he was almost always reading a book while waiting. 

You personally spoke to the neighbors?

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4 minutes ago, cjd5050 said:

You personally spoke to the neighbors?

Yeah I spent last night there, along with a dozen or so others in solidarity. Everyone was PO'd when the news came on about uptown.

Edited by SgtCampsalot

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