Jacksonville

[vladittude0583]

Being a Jacksonville native, I still prefer the entertianment venues available in other well-known floridian cities such as Tampa & Orlando. Although, I can't say much about Miami due to the fact that I've never been there. Given the news I hear is that Miami is on it's way to being the "City of the South" like New York is to the Northeast. Anyways, I always thought that I think Jacksonville has the capability to become a great city perhaps besting Miami and rivaling more well-known cities around the country. Here are some reasons as to why I think Jacksonville has the capability to become #1 in Florida and perhaps in the Southeast.

1) Jacksonville is the FINANCIAL and INSURANCE capital of Florida. Such an establishment of the major financial and insurance companies based here gives us an edge in this industry and perhaps they'll expand their companies while remaining here therefore increasing the workforce and attraction of outside employees.

2) Jacksonville is also the CALL-CENTER capital of the USA. Meaning that whenever you receive a phone call from a telemarketer, call about your credit card, or get a call about your credit, it all comes from here for the most part. That's why we have a big Citibank, Convergy's and so forth based here if you've noticed.

3) Jacksonville has the second largest seaport in terms of automobiles being imported and is quickly on it's way to rivaling the seaport of New York City in terms of size which is currently #1 and Jacksonville is #2.

4) Jacksonville doesn't have height limit restrictions as far as the construction of high-rises or skyscrapers that I know of unlike Miami, Tampa, & Orlando given the close proximity of their airports.

5) Jacksonville is a consolidated city unlike the others which must constantly battle different regions in agreeing with an issue.

6) The northeast region of Florida has the fastest growing counties in the U.S.

7) The weather here is more moderate in terms of hot & cold.

8) Jacksonville actually has the 2ND LARGEST land area in the "ENTIRE" U.S. second only to Juneau, Alaska. ---> Jacksonville does have the largest land area in the "CONTINENTAL US" meaning just the mainland and not including the two other states of which are seperated from the mainland. Jacksonville's land area is somewhere around 840+ square miles while Juneau's is around 3,000+ square miles (That's like the entire northeast florida in terms of size). NO JOKE. This info is true.

9) Jacksonville also has more FORTUNE 500 companies than any of the other major cities of Florida.

10) Jacksonville has the St. John's River that flows through of which they can use to their advantage by creating cruise ship terminals (don't know when) and other seafaring means of transportation.

11) Jacksonville has Mayport, NAS Jax and a host of other well-known military bases and are also large bases might I add.

12) I personally think Jacksonville has a greater Infrastructure than Orlando & Tampa (can't say anything about Miami b/c I haven't been there). I've traveled more than enough times to Orlando & Tampa and noticed that their street names are usually located on the post of the traffic signal and not in the very center of the traffic signal like we do here in Jacksonville (I'm describing some of the major roads in Tampa & Orlando and I'm sure you guys that have been there know what I'm talking about). Orlando's roads are too bumpy and uneven in addition to the hectic I-4 corridor they sit in. As far as the southside region of Jacksonville, our major roads like Atlantic Blvd, Beach Blvd, & JTB are all parallel to one another if you notice and they pretty much run from left to right all the way to the beaches. Same thing goes for Kernan Road, Hodges Blvd, St. John's Bluff Road and so forth. Orlando & Tampa's are pretty much curvy and such. We also have a major beltway loop around the city (I-295 - although I think Miami has one too but not sure).

13) I think with Tony Sleiman's idea of creating The Jacksonville Landing as the "place to be in the south" (whenever this happens) will add to the appeal of the city. If this project finished as intended with the promises and hopes of luring attractive retailers & such to this location in downtown along with the rising population of the urban core, will definitely help proliferate Jacksonville's image as a whole.

14) Even though Miami's got like 100+ projects in the works and I'm sure Orlando & Tampa has more than what Jacksonville has planned, like some people said, that when the urban core market increases in addition to the condos & such being built or in the planning stages, there will be more proposed plans and hopefully such plans will see the light of day and actually be built and thus allowing more developers to recognize Jacksonville as a city of great potential.

15) I must say though that a lot of people call Jacksonville red-neck, hick city & so forth but I think this isn't true. Although we live in the southern part of the USA and our views are a little bit more consertive (I think personally) than the north, I think it's definitely changing.

16) Jacksonville International Airport I believe is also in the nation's top 10 fastest growing airports (last time I read if I'm not mistaken).

If anyone else wants to add more to this list, feel free to do so. If anyone from other cities of florida reading this, don't get pissed off b/c these are just my thoughts and I'm sure you guys have plenty of arguments against some of the facts stated but I assure you that what I listed is all true.

[Hisma]

interesting argument, but Miami is just growing TOO FAST right now, and Jax has a long way to go to even catch up to where Miami is now... we're talking quadrupling in size. Instead of Jacksonville striving to be the "best in South", it should strive to become the business center of Florida, something I think it can definately achieve.

[95-Souf]

interesting argument, but Miami is just growing TOO FAST right now, and Jax has a long way to go to even catch up to where Miami is now... we're talking quadrupling in size.  Instead of Jacksonville striving to be the "best in South", it should strive to become the business center of Florida, something I think it can definately achieve.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

^ Great point made,...

But to the guy making all of those comparisons to Miami and the rest of Florida, let me give u a run down on where u went wrong.

First of all, there are only height restrictions in certain areas in Miami, the whole city is not restricted to height.

2. Citibank is not based in Jax, they just have one of 4 of its call center, (former employee)

3. Yes, Jacksonville does have a hieght restriction, i just dont know what it is, Let me research that, cuz I maybe wrong.

4. Just because Jax is consolidated doesnt mean it dont have internal problems with city services, I do remember a while back that a rural part of North Jax had a problem with Fire/Rescue.

5. Yes, Northeast Florida is growing, but as North Florida grows, So does everywhere else. Its like running in a race and speeding up but only to see everyone else has too.

6. Weather in North Florida is as predictable as the lottery, so its not like there is absolute 72 degree weather there year round.

7. Im so tried of hearing that Jax has the largest city limits in the US,.. ok, ok.. yes, its the largest, but could you imagine what the area would have been like today if Jax was still just Northside and Riverside. Quick estimation, maybe 300,000 people at best.

8. You know, that whole fortune 500 thing is a lil overrated. Jacksonville only have 2 based here, and one just filed chapter 11.

9. Jacksonville airport is out ranked by 5 others in the same state. Of course its growing fast, there wasnt anything there to begin with. That statistic is so overblown.

Im not bashing Jacksonvile, I just think that people in that area are sort of over achievers and have to many lofty expectations. Let the city grow into its self and stop trying to define something that hasnt even established an identity yet. Yes we all know jacksonville will never be an Atlanta, or Miami (why would u want it to) but eveytime there is a debate about the city, people contenuosly compare it to them....

Just a thought.

[bobliocatt]

^Actually Jax has 3 fortune 500 companies (Fidelity National Financial, CSX and Winn-Dixie).

Nevertheless, its a waste of time to even attempt to compare Jax (1.3 million) with Miami (one of the country's largest and densest metros with over 5 million residents). Miami is the big dog in Florida, plain and simple. Just accept it for what it is and move on.

[richjagr]

8. You know, that whole fortune 500 thing is a lil overrated. Jacksonville only have 2 based here, and one just filed chapter 11.

Just a thought.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I think we are a unique city, at one time was much larger than any other city in Florida (a good part of the 20th century infact) so for one to pass another, even with dramatic size difference, is not out of the question, though i do not think it will happen in my working lifetime (being 30).

As for #8, there are actually 3, Fidelity, CSX, and the bankrupt one..

Plus Jax serves as Citi's main Credit Card processing and service center. but they are not the only game in town, other major service employers are: AOL, Washington Mutual (and a ton of other/smaller mortgage companies) MPS/Modis , Convergys, Flytel, BofA, Waccovia just to name a few.

The Jacksonville has some unique aspects that are important for growth, some are advantages over other Florida cities, others are not.

Room for growth/sprawl

Miami (Metro) is getting hemmed in between the ocean and the everglades, it can only grow north or up. (Substantial future growth)

Orlando has quite a bit of room for growth

Tampa has some limitations because of the gulf and bay, but still not as hemmed in as Miami

Jax can grow in pretty much any direction except east, multiple bridges make river crossing not as tedious as other cities, 2 riverbanks and ocean in the city for high end development.

Transportation

Main crossroad city in the southest with deepwater port access. I.E. Easy access to seaport, multiple rail lines, cross continent north/south and east/west interstate. (The only cities I can find with all those features in one place are New York, LA, Seattle, San Francisco (Kindof), Chicago, New Orleans and Northern Virginia, pretty good company) (additionally having the second longest runway, longest public, on the east coast helps the plane assembly/fabrication/maintenance business that is growing rapidly here).

This making Jacksonville and ideal transportation hub location for the entire southeast as it can serve both Miami and Atlanta easily plus other areas of the southeast via rail, air, waterway, or truck while at the same time providing multiple cross continental links.

Cost of Living

What can I say here, it is very good for a Florida City, partly because of consolidation, partly because of a business economy, partly because of a younger average age. Additionally the availibilty of land helps here as well. No matter how we feel about sprawl, when you have multiple developments each larger than 10,000 homes in construction, it is a big deal for population growth, not to mention the explosion of housing in downtown, and the many other developments in the city. This helps prevent problems such as the new home lotteries in central florida, and expense of south florida.

Tourism

Primary focus on eco and histrical tourism, while not the quantity of other types, can have a larger impact on smaller businesses because of the spending habits of people interested in that type of tourism. (Not saying we do not get the regular types passing through)

Water

Not just for entertainment, but also drinking (a huge driver of future growth potential)

Everyone here knows I can go on and on, and frequently do , but seriously I think we are poised for growth unlike many other cities in the south, and probably beyond what most people imagine.

The growth is fueled from many diverse sources, from corporate and regional headquarters, service employers, manufacturing (which is unusual in florida), medical with Mayo and Shands (plus PSS), Major transportation headquarters (Landstar, CSX), open riverfront available, public access to natural aminities, largest park system in country (now put some more money into it and start with Sprinfield) Heavy aeronotical industry presence (embraer, northrup-grumman, NADEP) with 4 airports in the system with 2 going through huge growth (Cecil and JIA), etc and so on.

[wally2169]

Being a Jacksonville native, I still prefer the entertianment venues available in other well-known floridian cities such as Tampa & Orlando. Although, I can't say much about Miami due to the fact that I've never been there. Given the news I hear is that Miami is on it's way to being the "City of the South" like New York is to the Northeast. Anyways, I always thought that I think Jacksonville has the capability to become a great city perhaps besting Miami and rivaling more well-known cities around the country. Here are some reasons as to why I think Jacksonville has the capability to become #1 in Florida and perhaps in the Southeast.

1) Jacksonville is the FINANCIAL and INSURANCE capital of Florida. Such an establishment of the major financial and insurance companies based here gives us an edge in this industry and perhaps they'll expand their companies while remaining here therefore increasing the workforce and attraction of outside employees.

2) Jacksonville is also the CALL-CENTER capital of the USA. Meaning that whenever you receive a phone call from a telemarketer, call about your credit card, or get a call about your credit, it all comes from here for the most part. That's why we have a big Citibank, Convergy's and so forth based here if you've noticed.

3) Jacksonville has the second largest seaport in terms of automobiles being imported and is quickly on it's way to rivaling the seaport of New York City in terms of size which is currently #1 and Jacksonville is #2.

4) Jacksonville doesn't have height limit restrictions as far as the construction of high-rises or skyscrapers that I know of unlike Miami, Tampa, & Orlando given the close proximity of their airports.

5) Jacksonville is a consolidated city unlike the others which must constantly battle different regions in agreeing with an issue.

6) The northeast region of Florida has the fastest growing counties in the U.S.

7) The weather here is more moderate in terms of hot & cold.

8) Jacksonville actually has the 2ND LARGEST land area in the "ENTIRE" U.S. second only to Juneau, Alaska. ---> Jacksonville does have the largest land area in the "CONTINENTAL US" meaning just the mainland and not including the two other states of which are seperated from the mainland. Jacksonville's land area is somewhere around 840+ square miles while Juneau's is around 3,000+ square miles (That's like the entire northeast florida in terms of size). NO JOKE. This info is true.

9) Jacksonville also has more FORTUNE 500 companies than any of the other major cities of Florida.

10) Jacksonville has the St. John's River that flows through of which they can use to their advantage by creating cruise ship terminals (don't know when) and other seafaring means of transportation.

11) Jacksonville has Mayport, NAS Jax and a host of other well-known military bases and are also large bases might I add.

12) I personally think Jacksonville has a greater Infrastructure than Orlando & Tampa (can't say anything about Miami b/c I haven't been there). I've traveled more than enough times to Orlando & Tampa and noticed that their street names are usually located on the post of the traffic signal and not in the very center of the traffic signal like we do here in Jacksonville (I'm describing some of the major roads in Tampa & Orlando and I'm sure you guys that have been there know what I'm talking about). Orlando's roads are too bumpy and uneven in addition to the hectic I-4 corridor they sit in. As far as the southside region of Jacksonville, our major roads like Atlantic Blvd, Beach Blvd, & JTB are all parallel to one another if you notice and they pretty much run from left to right all the way to the beaches. Same thing goes for Kernan Road, Hodges Blvd, St. John's Bluff Road and so forth. Orlando & Tampa's are pretty much curvy and such. We also have a major beltway loop around the city (I-295 - although I think Miami has one too but not sure).

13) I think with Tony Sleiman's idea of creating The Jacksonville Landing as the "place to be in the south" (whenever this happens) will add to the appeal of the city. If this project finished as intended with the promises and hopes of luring attractive retailers & such to this location in downtown along with the rising population of the urban core, will definitely help proliferate Jacksonville's image as a whole.

14) Even though Miami's got like 100+ projects in the works and I'm sure Orlando & Tampa has more than what Jacksonville has planned, like some people said, that when the urban core market increases in addition to the condos & such being built or in the planning stages, there will be more proposed plans and hopefully such plans will see the light of day and actually be built and thus allowing more developers to recognize Jacksonville as a city of great potential.

15) I must say though that a lot of people call Jacksonville red-neck, hick city & so forth but I think this isn't true. Although we live in the southern part of the USA and our views are a little bit more consertive (I think personally) than the north, I think it's definitely changing.

16) Jacksonville International Airport I believe is also in the nation's top 10 fastest growing airports (last time I read if I'm not mistaken).

If anyone else wants to add more to this list, feel free to do so. If anyone from other cities of florida reading this, don't get pissed off b/c these are just my thoughts and I'm sure you guys have plenty of arguments against some of the facts stated but I assure you that what I listed is all true.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

While I do not necessarily believe Jax can ever compete with the development Miami is currently experiencing, I do agree with you 100% that the world has got to get the "redneck" cliche of Jax out of their minds.

While this city has a very strong southern feel and yes, southern country mentality, it is not just some hick town.

Jax has made some amazing changes for the better in the past 10-15 years and it's only going to get better

I find it funny that those who criticized Jax for the Superbowl were cities and people living in cities that not only did not get to host the game, but either haven't in years or ever.

When was the last time a Superbowl was played in Washington DC?

Jax will come full circle in due time, never doubt that.

What you said above, well done

[Aessotariq]

noticed that their street names are usually located on the post of the traffic signal and not in the very center of the traffic signal like we do here in Jacksonville

Interesting observation. Were the street signs you saw self-illuminated, and were the traffic signals span-wire (cables strung from the posts)? If so, they're mounted to the posts rather than hung from the cables because of their sheer weight. They're fairly heavy and would make the cables sag.

[richjagr]

^ Great point made,...

4. Just because Jax is consolidated doesnt mean it dont have internal problems with city services, I do remember a while back that a rural part of North Jax had a problem with Fire/Rescue.

6. Weather in North Florida is as predictable as the lottery, so its not like there is absolute 72 degree weather there year round.

7. Im so tried of hearing that Jax has the largest city limits in the US,.. ok, ok.. yes, its the largest, but could you imagine what the area would have been like today if Jax was still just Northside and Riverside. Quick estimation, maybe 300,000 people at best.

Just a thought.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Lakelander, I agree, the Jacksonville/Miami comparison just does not fit and I was not trying to make an argument comparing the 2, as they are very very different cities, with very different feels, with the main common points being both are on I95, the atlantic ocean, and in Florida (and that is about it).

Just some additional thoughts on the points above.

#4 insurance companies rank all of Jacksonville as having fire/rescue readily available within their lowest risk zone. (like most cities) (i had to call 911 for a medical emergency and they were at my house in under 2 minutes, excellent response rate, even for Baymeadows traffic.. lol)

#6, not everyone considers this a bad thing, especially younger families moving from the north who want a hint of winter, but without the snow and ice. And you can still play golf year round (with more golf holes per capita than anywhere else, and multiple championship courses)

#7, The cities of Miami (400,000), Orlando(200,000), and Tampa (300,000) are all between 200,000 and 400,000 as well, so this is an illogical point, if anything hurts the point that was made as Jacksonville at 750,000 has more people to spread the costs of government across, keeping costs lower, but with the advantages of city services and none of the hassels of multi-layered government.

I just wanted to clarify that I am not intending/nor trying to be argumenative, and appologize if it is coming off that way. Everyone has their favorite place to live, and each city in the country is unique, but no state has such a great diversity among it's major cities. Growth in the state will keep going, and they will go where they can, with each city having groups that are more drawn to it than the others.

Looking at most of the country the variety of large population centers (that are all growing rapidly) so close together here is a credit to the natural geography that is Florida that is not found anywhere else and drives all of the growth in the state.

I see us as American's first, Floridian's second, and whereever our city is third.

I am proud of all of Florida, and am happy that we feed off of the growth of our neighbors to the south, as they are grateful of our features that offset theirs (stability of the state economy through the greater diversity, etc)

Rich

[Rock2uf]

Well said, Rich. You running for office?

[vladittude0583]

For you that criticized my statement regarding Jacksonville being the largest call center in the U.S., what I meant was that the companies I had listed were "BASED" here in terms of their call center operations and so forth and not their "CORPORATE" headquarters. There's a difference between call-center operations and corporate headquarters. Perhaps, you need to read the statement a little bit more slowly to understand my POINT. Furthermore, like I said in some of my statements, I've never been to Miami so I wasn't directly criticizing them in particular unlike Tampa & Orlando of which I've been to. My reasoning on some of them is that they're just speculation. As far as the signal lights that I mentioned, when I drove through Tampa & Orlando on roads like Orange Blossom Trail, John Young Parkway, their street names were located on the corner of the traffic signal where the posts where standing from. For someone to say that Jacksonville will never be like Miami, I beg to differ. Even though Miami's growing at 4x the pace of Jacksonville, I believe there's a saying, "never underestimate the small or the weak." You gotta remember that Miami can only stretch so far in terms of population and size since they're limited to the north & south, Jacksonville on the other hand can expand in any direction for the most part. Even though a consolidated city might have problems passing some laws, bills, etc., there's less complications than a city that has to face other cities within the same county on passing legislation! As far as the weather, what I meant was that even though our weather is sporadic (never staying the same like perhaps orlando, tampa, or miami) at least the heat during the summertime I believe isn't as extreme as further south but then also we get a nicer winter temp compared to the other major cities of the south. Furthermore, to the guy criticizing the growth of NE Florida, I know all of florida is growing but most of the growth in years to come will be in the Northeastern Region!!!

[bobliocatt]

I'll say it again. Jax will never be like Miami, and go out on a further limb and say, neither should it strive to be like it. The major differences being, the landscape, the diversity, history, and South Florida being built out. Jax should strive to create an identity for itself, continue to enhance its quality of life and not worry about being the King of the South.

BTW, South Florida overtook the Jax area, in population, as far back as the early 1920s.

[richjagr]

I'll say it again.  Jax will never be like Miami, and go out on a further limb and say, neither should it strive to be like it.  The major differences being, the landscape, the diversity, history, and South Florida being built out.    Jax should strive to create an identity for itself, continue to enhance its quality of life and not worry about being the King of the South.

BTW, South Florida overtook the Jax area, in population, as far back as the early 1920s.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Well said lakelander, and thanks for the clarification on the population. I knew it was in the 20th century, just could not remember the year, I easily memorize facts and data just by reading or hearing them, but have a very hard time with dates and names.

Rock2uf, I thought about running for office but figure I could not get elected in my district, plus I would have to give up my day job, which is not something I want to do at this point. After I get some of my ideas off the ground I will think about it again.

[RiversideGator]

Lake: Dade did not pass Duval until some time in the 1930s. See this list: http://www.urbanplanet.org/forums/index.php?showtopic=9118

I think if you look at Dade vs. Duval now, Dade is approximately 2 1/2 times greater in population that Duval. I dont consider Palm Beach County part of the Miami metro and I dont care what the census says. I think there are very little connections between PBC and Dade and if you asked the average PBC resident if they considered themselves part of Miami they would be offended.

[prahaboheme]

I think JAX could easily be like an "Austin" of Florida, a really hip urban and educational center with a strong sense of its own history, not trying to be the biggest or the best, but becoming something altogether cool and unique because of its old architecture and built environment, enhanced by the quality of new infustructure. If it could achieve this (and any city in Florida for that matter), people will take notice.

[richjagr]

For you that criticized my statement regarding Jacksonville being the largest call center in the U.S., what I meant was that the companies I had listed were "BASED" here in terms of their call center operations ....

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Just a couple points, and remember as I say them that I am not disagreeing with you on the large scale of our call center operations.

All of the call center's and operations I mentioned have multiple locations around the country and world. In many cases the Jax site is the largest, but I don't think that qualifies us as the call center capital of the US (Personally I think that dubious destinction belongs to India). Citibank specifically has their major credit card operations here, but they are alot bigger company than just credit cards (and every time I call on my mortgage or bank account with them, someone in India answers the phone).

Call centers do help even out our economy, and I owe my livelyhood to their existance, but they are generally low-mid wage employers for entry level individuals, and frequently do not provide opportunity for growth for many of their employees. Not saying that is a bad thing, as that is a great fill for college students and individuals who need more non-traditional work hours.

Personally I believe their are 4 key factors to our large number of large call centers and looking at the industry you can see call centers moving out of cities that have greater expenses for ones that have less, and with the growth of Florida I am not sure how much longer we will fit into that lower cost of living (speaking from a rental and housing only perspective, see the Housing Bubble posting I made for details, essentially on our rental rates, and apartment conversions.)

1. Low cost of living - lower pay needed

2. Large concentration of call centers - less training needed, and less resistance to the style of working in a call center

3. Genuinly Friendly residents - this is the often missed point and I believe has just as much impact in the decisions to locate a center as cost, just look at the cities that companies are consolidating their call centers in, mainly the mid west to west (excluding the coastal states) and the south.

4. Location - any of my posts will fit to support this one

Both areas of the country have 2 historic trends I feel :

1. A live and let live attitude (for most things)

2. No/fewer aging industrialized infratructure (from facilities to unions to reputations)

Caution - Speculation/Rambling Ahead - FWIW

Also, I thank the heavens every day for the Orlando/MouseHouse and Miami Beach Tourists, without both we would probably have a much higher cost of living through income taxes, etc to support our state.

Most of Florida is a one way trip for goods coming in the state (have you ever rented a car or uhaul for a one way trip to FL, you can almost get one for free going out of Florida because frequently they have to be hauled empty back out at the companies expense, my dad is retired navy and drives semis now to pass the time. he almost always refuses to take a load farther south than Jax (he does not live here) because he frequently has to at least come back part of the way empty to pick up a load.

He pulls Flatbeds loads, container loads are so much of a commodity that it is hard to make any money on them, same reason he does east west cross continent loads, they pay more than north south, plus less headache of traffic.

The point I was making is, without the tourists the demand would be less for goods in the state to support them, making our transportation costs higher for all goods and services.

[richjagr]

I think the key thing to remember is all of Florida growth was originally tourist based, Jacksonville is just farther along than some of the other "Great southern cities" in evolving past/through this.

Afterall, we (northeast Florida) were the:

Location of the first European "tourists" to the Americas

"Hosted" the French, British, and Spanish - they sure got the word out about this "Paradise"..

Pre-Civil war, we were Florida, everything else was still wilderness (Exaggerating here)

Winter retreat of the rich of the railroad industry and Industrial Revolution

Only after greater links south were made did the average tourists move south allowing/forcing our economy to change.

NE-FL used to be THE place to vacation, luckally the wealthy also saw it as a good place to do business as well when the US began to move to a more regional then national economy rather than just a collection of local economies. (not saying that process is done, but much farther along)

I often wonder if the great fire was a good or bad thing for the development of the city.. maybe I will post that question as a poll.. hmm

[bobliocatt]

Lake:  Dade did not pass Duval until some time in the 1930s.  See this list:  http://www.urbanplanet.org/forums/index.php?showtopic=9118

I think if you look at Dade vs. Duval now, Dade is approximately 2 1/2 times greater in population that Duval.  I dont consider Palm Beach County part of the Miami metro and I dont care what the census says.  I think there are very little connections between PBC and Dade and if you asked the average PBC resident if they considered themselves part of Miami they would be offended.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

You forgot about Broward County, which sits between the two.

[FlaNatv]

Jax will probably never move to 3rd place in Florida in population. Downtown Jax has, for a long time made the city look more populated than it is. I'd just like to see Jax get more respect around the country. Unlike what happened before the Superbowl. Jax has a lot of notables. Jax already has an internationally known golf course. It looks like they are currently building an even greater skyline in a setting that rivals any city. Jax seems to be developing with a focus on quality. Of course snagging another well known corporate headquarters wouldn't hurt.

[mwfsu84]

I hope this doesn't constitute herasy. But those wishing to see the Jacksonville metro catch up with urban giants Miami and Atlanta might want to be careful what they wish for.

I grew up in Jacksonville, and now live in Atlanta. Yes, the amenities of living in a major metro area are nice. But with them come major headaches.

When you move to Atlanta, you have to decide whether to live inside or outside the perimeter (I-275). Both come with challenges that are related to living in a dense urban area.

If you live inside the perimeter, you'll pay dearly for housing - because undeveloped land in this area is rapidly disappearing. The exception is south of downtown, around the Carter Presidential Library. But even those homes are fixer-uppers, which require more money.

I live in Buckhead - but not the ritzy section everyone talks about. I live closer to the pornography district of Chesire Bridge Rd. (No jokes, please.) My condo is a two-bedroom, two- bathroom model...and costs $180,000. That's considered a bargain. There are so many new condos going up in Buckhead, and they START at 300k. I wanted to live in the Peachtree Hills area - in Buckhead, close to Midtown. The homes there are about 70 years old. And the fixer uppers start at 350k.

If you live outside the perimeter, you can get more house for your money. Housing prices in suburban Gwinett and Cobb County are comprable to what my parents paid for their new home near Eagle Harbor in OP. But the commute into the city of Atlanta is horrifying. Traffic on I-275 is always congested, but during rush hour, it comes to a stop. Going ten miles will take you an hour. And the subway (MARTA) doesn't go into the suburbs, other than DeKalb Co, which is technically Atlanta.

What I've noticed is that most single folks opt to live in the city. But when you're married and have a family, you live in the 'burbs.

Car insurance is more expensive too. I lived in Nashville before Atlanta. When I moved to Georgia, my insurance increased another 400.00.

Another development I've noticed: Atlanta is covered in smog. You really notice it during the summer. At one point they were actually talking about eliminating drive-through windows at fast-food restaurants. I guess that was somehow supposed to cut down on CO2 emissions. Anyway, that wasn't a problem in 1990 when I moved here.

That said, for all its warts, I love Atlanta. You just learn to adjust.

Not trying to sound condescending, since I'm sure many of you have lived in major cities too. But it bears repeating every now and then: bigger is not always better.

[RiversideGator]

You forgot about Broward County, which sits between the two.

I didnt forget Broward. I was focusing on Palm Beach b/c that is the county which is most obviously not part of Miami. Broward should be included in the metro area, but it does have a significant identity of its own. I am just saying that SE FL is not like one massive city surrounded by suburbs which orbit around the city. Instead it is several large to mid-sized cities which are clustered together but dont have a lot of interaction. Miami, Ft Lauderdale, West Palm Beach are all distinct cities.

[RiversideGator]

MWFSU: No offense, but I never want Jacksonville to be like Atlanta. Atlanta is, after LA, the worst planned city in America and has almost no natural beauty. While I would like to see additional downtown development and more retail opportunities here, I dont want to have sprawl from Jacksonville all the way to Daytona. As to population growth, this is a mixed bag. I guess whether or not I support it depends on who we are talking about adding to the city.

[FLORIDA SKYRISE ORDER]

^ Great point made,...

But to the guy making all of those comparisons to Miami and the rest of Florida, let me give u a run down on where u went wrong.

First of all, there are only height restrictions in certain areas in Miami, the whole city is not restricted to height.

2. Citibank is not based in Jax, they just have one of 4 of its call center, (former employee)

3. Yes, Jacksonville does have a hieght restriction, i just dont know what it is, Let me research that, cuz I maybe wrong.

4. Just because Jax is consolidated doesnt mean it dont have internal problems with city services, I do remember a while back that a rural part of North Jax had a problem with Fire/Rescue.

5. Yes, Northeast Florida is growing, but as North Florida grows,  So does everywhere else. Its like running in a race and speeding up but only to see everyone else has too.

6. Weather in North Florida is as predictable as the lottery, so its not like there is absolute 72 degree weather there year round.

7. Im so tried of hearing that Jax has the largest city limits in the US,.. ok, ok.. yes, its the largest, but could you imagine what the area would have been like today if Jax was still just Northside and Riverside. Quick estimation, maybe 300,000 people at best.

8. You know, that whole fortune 500 thing is a lil overrated. Jacksonville only have 2 based here, and one just filed chapter 11.

9. Jacksonville airport is out ranked by 5 others in the same state. Of course its growing fast, there wasnt anything there to begin with. That statistic is so overblown.

Im not bashing Jacksonvile,  I just think that people in that area are sort of over achievers and have to many lofty expectations. Let the city grow into its self and stop trying to define something that hasnt even established an identity yet.  Yes we all know jacksonville will never be an Atlanta, or Miami (why would u want it to) but eveytime there is a debate about the city, people contenuosly compare it to them....

Just a thought.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I agree with your reply; but disagree with what you stated regarding if Jacksonville had not consolidated, there might be only 300,000 people at best; if the old core city and neighborhoods was still the order of the day, the population would struggle to hit 120,000 or more; there are many pockets of Jacksonville that have deteriorated and been razed, since the 1960's and since consolidation was initiated, to the point that many of the residents were chased out or moved to suburban areas; Jacksonville might have annexed more populated areas had it not consolidated, bringing the population maybe to a little more than 120,000, but if the old city boundaries were still the order if Jax had not consolidated, Jax would be number 7 or 8 on the population list in the State of Florida.

Jax has the potential to be a great city; and had its leaders planned and led the city correctly with an astute vision in the 1950's and 1960's, I believe Jax would have been right up there with Tampa and Orlando; I believe Jax will never catch up to Miami. As someone said, that area of Florida is just growing too unbelievably fast. Also, Miami, in my opinion, is more like the second New York City of the South than any other City in the South or Southeast.

One more point; to me, consolidation is kind of cheating population-wise. I think consolidation has benefitted many cities in many different ways, but for a City to count its population within the entire borders of a county is taking the short cut and easy way out to fame, greatness and notoriety.

Tell me what y'all think.

FLORIDA SKYRISE ORDER

[FLORIDA SKYRISE ORDER]

For you that criticized my statement regarding Jacksonville being the largest call center in the U.S., what I meant was that the companies I had listed were "BASED" here in terms of their call center operations and so forth and not their "CORPORATE" headquarters. There's a difference between call-center operations and corporate headquarters. Perhaps, you need to read the statement a little bit more slowly to understand my POINT. Furthermore, like I said in some of my statements, I've never been to Miami so I wasn't directly criticizing them in particular unlike Tampa & Orlando of which I've been to. My reasoning on some of them is that they're just speculation. As far as the signal lights that I mentioned, when I drove through Tampa & Orlando on roads like Orange Blossom Trail, John Young Parkway, their street names were located on the corner of the traffic signal where the posts where standing from. For someone to say that Jacksonville will never be like Miami, I beg to differ. Even though Miami's growing at 4x the pace of Jacksonville, I believe there's a saying, "never underestimate the small or the weak." You gotta remember that Miami can only stretch so far in terms of population and size since they're limited to the north & south, Jacksonville on the other hand can expand in any direction for the most part. Even though a consolidated city might have problems passing some laws, bills, etc., there's less complications than a city that has to face other cities within the same county on passing legislation! As far as the weather, what I meant was that even though our weather is sporadic (never staying the same like perhaps orlando, tampa, or miami) at least the heat during the summertime I believe isn't as extreme as further south but then also we get a nicer winter temp compared to the other major cities of the south. Furthermore, to the guy criticizing the growth of NE Florida, I know all of florida is growing but most of the growth in years to come will be in the Northeastern Region!!!

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

We'll all long be dead and in the grave when and if Jax catches up with Miami population-wise, and in all other areas!

FLORIDA SKYRISE ORDER

[Aessotariq]

I didnt forget Broward.  I was focusing on Palm Beach b/c that is the county which is most obviously not part of Miami.  Broward should be included in the metro area, but it does have a significant identity of its own.  I am just saying that SE FL is not like one massive city surrounded by suburbs which orbit around the city.  Instead it is several large to mid-sized cities which are clustered together but dont have a lot of interaction.  Miami, Ft Lauderdale, West Palm Beach are all distinct cities.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

While each county has a distinct identity, that does not preclude them from being a single metropolitan area. Sitting in traffic on I-95 during rush hour should be an obvious sign that this is a single metro. Whether or not people "think" or "believe" or "feel" they are part of the metro is irrelevant -- the people on the fringes never feel like they belong to anything. A metropolitan area does not require a central city with rings of suburbs -- if you look at our geography that's next to impossible.

As little as 25 years ago, there was almost no interaction between Dade and Broward counties. People rarely crossed county lines. Now tens of thousands of people cross back and forth every single day. You wouldn't know you were crossing county lines were it not for the signs telling you that you had done so. People cross between Broward and Palm Beach without regard to what county they're in.

Because of Palm Beach's attenuated development pattern, there are basically two economic centers in the county - northern Palm Beach, dominated by West Palm Beach et al., and southern Palm Beach, dominated by Boca Raton et al.

Boca Raton/southern Palm Beach has a lot of interaction with North Broward. They even share the same local calling area.

As for non-interaction, there are already interlocal agreements regarding new businesses coming to the region. The counties and their cities have agreed not to attempt to lure businesses away from each other and not to compete intra-regionally. A perfect example is Scripps -- despite all the stumbles that Palm Beach County had with respect to the proposed development site, Miami-Dade and Broward did not attempt to lure them away from Palm Beach County.

The South Florida Regional Transportation Authority operates Tri-Rail and coordinates the regional transit needs of the three counties. The three counties also work to address regional traffic concerns as well. One of the most important projects that they are working on is synchronizing the three counties' traffic signalization systems, so that cross-county traffic can flow better. Right now a southbound motorist might see a green light in Broward County only to be stopped by a red light in Dade County a few hundred feet away.

When you look at employment numbers and commuting patterns, Broward has many commuters that work in Dade and Palm Beach counties. Being the middle county, this shouldn't be a surprise.

According to Broward County's Planning Service Division, in 2000, approximately:

• 52,712 Broward workers commuted to Palm Beach, 115,044 commuted to Dade

• 37,685 Palm Beach workers commuted to Broward, 5,560 commuted to Dade

• 60,096 Dade workers commuted to Broward, 3,843 commuted to Palm Beach.

Of all the counties, Broward has the least number of workers that work in their county, 77%, exporting its workers to the other counties. Palm Beach has 89%, Dade 92%.

Looking at the interaction at the county level is the most important and relevant way to assess regionalism in South Florida. Cities are only relevant to this type of discussion when discussing the local provision of municipal services within that jurisdiction.

[Urban_Legend]

Nice facts, Aessotariq! It's clear that we're tied together regionally with all of the commuters we have. Even though we have 3 big downtowns (Miami, Ft. Lauderdale, West Palm) it's basically one large city, because of the continuous development.