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vladittude0583

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I agree with your reply; but disagree with what you stated regarding if Jacksonville had not consolidated, there might be only 300,000 people at best; if the old core city and neighborhoods was still the order of the day, the population would struggle to hit 120,000 or more; there are many pockets of Jacksonville that have deteriorated and been razed, since the 1960's and since consolidation was initiated, to the point that many of the residents were chased out or moved to suburban areas; Jacksonville might have annexed more populated areas had it not consolidated, bringing the population maybe to a little more than 120,000, but if the old city boundaries were still the order if Jax had not consolidated, Jax would be number 7 or 8 on the population list in the State of Florida.

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Jax 32201

5 mile radius = 250,000

4 mile radius = 140,000

Orlando 32801

5 mile radius = 270,000

4 mile radius = 100,000

Tampa 33602

5 mile radius = 250,000

4 mile radius = 130,000

Miami 33101

5 mile radius = 400,000

4 mile radius = 310,000

WPB 33401

5 mile radius = 200,000

4 mile radius = 130,000

Ft laud 33301

5 mile radius = 250,000

4 mile radius = 180,000

St Pete 33701

5 mile radius = 200,000

4 mile radius = 170,000

7 to 8? Closer to still being in the top 3.

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You're not offending me, Riverside Gator.

In fact, former mayor John Delaney made that very point about Atlanta. His statement did tick off a lot of residents up here, and they ripped Jacksonville. But those folks didn't get it. Delaney was simply saying that with fast growth comes chaos and mistakes. As a smaller, but growing urban area, Jacksonville has the advantage of learning from the mistakes of the Atlantas and Miamis. Or Orlando and Tampa for that matter. Nothing against those cities, but no place is perfect.

Frankly, growth has been out of control for years in Atlanta, and the region has looked the other way. Only in the last ten years or so have you heard a signifigant backlash.

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Having no first hand experience with Southern California, Atlanta is the worst planned city I have ever seen. I have never seen a city that is so poorly pedestrian oriented (Jacksonville is bad in parts, but Atlanta is ridiculus.

Not only that, but the "real" big cities all have no problem pointing out Atlanta's faults. In a Chicago paper known as the "Red Eye" (It's the evening version of either the Tribune or the Sun-Times), there was a "City vs. Suburbs" debate. In it, they were taking about how some of the "Big Boxes" were ruining their neighborhood feel. At the end of the articls, the writer told the residents to relax, and said

"At least we're not Atlanta, a city that boomed in the 1990's, but now resembles a giant strip mall on the side of the expressway".

I believe that one sentence sums up Atlanta very well.

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Jax 32201

5 mile radius = 250,000

4 mile radius = 140,000

Orlando 32801

5 mile radius = 270,000

4 mile radius = 100,000

Tampa 33602

5 mile radius = 250,000

4 mile radius = 130,000

Miami 33101

5 mile radius = 400,000

4 mile radius = 310,000

WPB 33401

5 mile radius = 200,000

4 mile radius = 130,000

Ft laud 33301

5 mile radius = 250,000

4 mile radius = 180,000

St Pete 33701

5 mile radius = 200,000

4 mile radius = 170,000

7 to 8?  Closer to still being in the top 3.

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Jax 32201

5 mile radius = 250,000

4 mile radius = 140,000

Orlando 32801

5 mile radius = 270,000

4 mile radius = 100,000

Tampa 33602

5 mile radius = 250,000

4 mile radius = 130,000

Miami 33101

5 mile radius = 400,000

4 mile radius = 310,000

WPB 33401

5 mile radius = 200,000

4 mile radius = 130,000

Ft laud 33301

5 mile radius = 250,000

4 mile radius = 180,000

St Pete 33701

5 mile radius = 200,000

4 mile radius = 170,000

7 to 8?  Closer to still being in the top 3.

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I don't know whether the old core city boundaries extended to 4 or 5 miles, probably in some areas, but I'll bet these new population numbers extend past the old urban core boundaries.

I am not refuting or dispelling Jax's status or notoriety; I love Jacksonville; I am just stating the fact that if Jax was shrunk back to those old pre-consolidated urban core boundaries, you would not see 250,000 or possibly not even 140,000 people as iterated above in the zip code sectors.

I'll bet most of these zip code sectors extend outside of the old core city urban boundaries before consolidation took place; probably will be hard to investigate this to support my assumption, but if someone wants to take a stab at it, go for it.

FLORIDA SKYRISE ORDER

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That 5 mile radius for Jax, would cover parts of the old city on the Northside, a large portion of the St. Johns River and a portion of the Southside, some of which were a part of the old city limits. With that said, the denser old city and the river makes up most of that 5 mile radius.

nevertheless, in the end it really wouldn't matter, because every Florida city, excluding Miami has annexed additional land over the years, since 1968. So if you took Jax back to its original size (pre 1968) you have to do the same for every city to make it a valid comparison.

With that said, the core zip comparison shown, is an apples to apples comparison. However, it does favor Orlando, because water consumes half of the five mile radius of the coastal cities.

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Jacksonville pre-consolidation land area in Sq miles - 39

Jacksonville pre-consolidation population - 250,000

Current land area in Sq miles and population.

Miami - 36 - 376,000

Tampa - 112 - 317,000

Orlando - 95 - 199,000

WPB - 49 - 88,000

FtL - 31 - 162,000

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I think Jacksonville's boundaries before consolidation extended north to the Trout River, west to Ortega, and South to San Jose. It wasnt just downtown in 1968. And, I seem to recall that there were well over 200,000 in Jacksonville prior to consolidation. You might want to check your numbers, Skyline.

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You're welcome.

Most people don't realize that Jacksonville has a large population because it's actually quite dense. They attribute the population simply to the annexation, though true to a degree, but it would still be quite sizable with a more modest, centralized city limits.

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I think all Jax natives should feel proud of their city. Jax has a lot of history and charm and it was the first Metropolis of Florida, Tampa was second. Miami and Orlando grew too fast with too little planning on a local leadership level, thus the mess we see today. Jax has the advantage of knowing how to plan growth, because they have the experience. Orlando only surpassed Jax in Metro population a little over 10 years ago, but with that growth came A LOT of Pains.

I don't agree with people in Fla saying they want their respective cities to be the next "Atlanta" or "New York". As others have already said, Atlanta is HORRIBLE. Try sitting in Atlanta traffic during Rush hour and you'll see you're in a virtual parking lot. And Atlanta has bypasses, spurs, tollways, and even a Commuter Rail system. Do you REALLY want this for your city?

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I've always heard that cities like Atlanta boomed after the advent of the automobile, which is why it's sprawled out and criss-crossed with clogged expressways.

Jax had a relative boom before the 50's which gave it good core infrastructure in the central parts of the city. Mind you, the past 50 years have seen sprawl, but not nearly as bad as other cities.

I like Jacksonville's expressway system, not only the interstates but the other limited access highways, like Arlington Expressway, Roosevelt/I-10, Hart Bridge Expressway. You can really zip right in and out of downtown with ease. JTB on the other hand.....

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I think all Jax natives should feel proud of their city. Jax has a lot of history and charm and it was the first Metropolis of Florida,

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I think that sums it up nicely. Jax is a great city. I always enjoy myself every time I go there.

And to the Atlanta comments, traffic in Jax can be bad too. I make an effort not to have to go anywhere during rush hour. Atlantic Blvd is horrible then.

I've always heard that cities like Atlanta boomed after the advent of the automobile, which is why it's sprawled out and criss-crossed with clogged expressways.

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Every city boomed after the automobile came about. Not just Atlanta. They are the sole reason modern suburbs exist. Atlanta has been growing since Reconstruciton. The automobile made it exponential.

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I think that sums it up nicely. Jax is a great city. I always enjoy myself every time I go there.

And to the Atlanta comments, traffic in Jax can be bad too. I make an effort not to have to go anywhere during rush hour. Atlantic Blvd is horrible then.

Every city boomed after the automobile came about. Not just Atlanta. They are the sole reason modern suburbs exist. Atlanta has been growing since Reconstruciton. The automobile made it exponential.

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No, Jacksonville traffic can be bad, but you don't know traffic until you spend a rush hour on I-285 on the northeast side of Atlanta. I do Atlantic Blvd every day to & from work - It's not that bad.

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When I was down in JAX for a week last summer, I didn't think Atlantic Blvd.'s traffic was all the bad. Jacksonville has an effective expressway system from my experiences.

You think ATL's is bad? Check out Chicago's Ryan Expy or any one of LA's main thoroughfares. Sometimes, it's like being in a sea of statues out there.

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That 5 mile radius for Jax, would cover parts of the old city on the Northside, a large portion of the St. Johns River and a portion of the Southside, some of which were a part of the old city limits.  With that said, the denser old city and the river makes up most of that 5 mile radius.

nevertheless, in the end it really wouldn't matter, because every Florida city, excluding Miami has annexed additional land over the years, since 1968.  So if you took Jax back to its original size (pre 1968) you have to do the same for every city to make it a valid comparison. 

With that said, the core zip comparison shown, is an apples to apples comparison.  However, it does favor Orlando, because water consumes half of the five mile radius of the coastal cities.

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Great assumptive analysis and great point Lakelander; I would agree on what you've said.

FLORIDA SKYRISE ORDER

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Jacksonville pre-consolidation land area in Sq miles - 39

Jacksonville pre-consolidation population - 250,000

Current land area in Sq miles and population.

Miami - 36 - 376,000

Tampa - 112 - 317,000

Orlando - 95 - 199,000

WPB - 49 - 88,000

FtL - 31 - 162,000

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If that 36 square miles for Miami is correct, then Miami is one of the densest populated major cities in America. I always thought that Miami proper (urban core city limits) was larger than that, however, there is a lot of un-annexed areas around Miami proper.

1960 census has Jacksonville at 201,030 within the old city boundaries; also, if I remember correct, the core city was LOSING population while moving toward the 1970 census, and would not have had a population above 200,000.

Anyway, this is great stuff!

FLORIDA SKYRISE ORDER

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I think Jacksonville's boundaries before consolidation extended north to the Trout River, west to Ortega, and South to San Jose.  It wasnt just downtown in 1968.  And, I seem to recall that there were well over 200,000 in Jacksonville prior to consolidation.  You might want to check your numbers, Skyline.

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Again, 1960 census...201,030; check your numbers at what core city would have been in 1970; I remember the numbers, though I was an ankle biter, at below 200,000.

FLORIDA SKYLINE ORDER

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Again, 1960 census...201,030; check your numbers at what core city would have been in 1970; I remember the numbers, though I was an ankle biter, at below 200,000.

FLORIDA SKYLINE ORDER

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My bad; I shouldn't use the words "core city" but rather "old city limit(s)" to define the areas of population for Jacksonville before consolidation ruled.

FLORIDA SKYLINE ORDER

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