Deciding Where To Live - Politics or Density?

[spenser1058]

Larry Sabato's Crystal Ball has a great piece this week about sorting where we live - do we decide based on politics or do we decide based on the neighborhood and the politics happen to match?

http://www.centerforpolitics.org/crystalball/articles/partisan-geographic-sorting/

Do Democrats really prefer urban environments and Republicans to be home on the range? I guess an interesting question would be to ask how many Republicans prefer to live in town and how many Dems are out in the 'burbs by choice or growing sugar cane in Clewiston? I look forward to more research on this.

[jack]

I think the area tends to push people into certain politics. Most folks do not have core beliefs. 

[John Hargrove]

I think it's both. You end up where you are because who you are and where you're from. But, you also learn from your surroundings. We all do. 

In my case, I have lived downtown for almost 7 years. But I'm probably leaving soon, because now I have a family of 3. The economics of my situation have changed. I hate carrying groceries for 3 people when I park hundreds of feet away from my front door. But maybe now I'll be around more families. Maybe now I'll be just as irritated with the failings of the public school system. Who knows. Point is, politics aside, I share some circumstances with people in the new district. That might change my vote on certain things.

If I move to Winter Garden will I suddenly become Republican? I don't think so. I won't suddenly become fine with the stances held by the GOP. It just won't happen. There's too much wrong there.

I think you have to compare data between what people believe, where they live and how invested they are. I agree with Jack -- most people are just go with the flow. But I also think that politically active people will likely stay committed to their core beliefs wherever they are.

[spenser1058]

As I've mentioned before, I've toyed with a move to Winter Garden before, and you're correct, there are lots of mitigating factors in addition to the politics.

* I'd live close to downtown WG and there's not a Publix within walking distance;

* Same for the Y, which is a few miles out of downtown WGalthough I suppose I could ride my bike;

* The library is of course smaller with fewer activities and many fewer books (which nowadays just matters for browsing as you can have anything delivered from anywhere in Orange County);

* I've not found the churches to be as progressive as churches in downtown Orlando (like FUMCO and 1st Uni, for example), although I've heard some good things about Red Star's church out there.

On the other hand, it's of course a cyclist's dream and much easier to get to the wide open spaces for touring than downtown O-town;

* It's easier since it's a smaller town to get involved in the local politics and arts and to make a difference (yay! Garden Theater) than it often is in Orlando;

* Sunsets at the park overlooking Lake Apopka are to die for (not to mention the Phil's concert every year).

So, it all gets back to what's important to you.

I also know that WG is attracting more and more progressive folks as folks from places like Disney have discovered for easier commutes and lower housing prices, so it's definitely up and coming.

[Dale]

I have always found downtowns stimulating, but have always lived in the suburbs and am a libertarian. In other words, more live-and-let-live than either conservatives or progressives.

I have further found the suburbs to be more diverse than the urban enclaves I've frequented. Funny story: years ago I had a discussion, on UP Coffee House, with a Minneapolitan who was disaparaging Red Staters for their stultifying conformity. He was preening over the fact that in the parking garage of his downtown apartment complex, nary a Bush-Cheney bumper sticker was to be found. Only Kerry-Edwards. This was posited as evidence of greater diversity. LOL

[John Hargrove]

5 hours ago, spenser1058 said:

...

I also know that WG is attracting more and more progressive folks as folks from places like Disney have discovered for easier commutes and lower housing prices, so it's definitely up and coming.

 

I have all of these reservations about WG and probably more. For instance, I really thrive on the energy of the city. It's hard to leave behind the rumble of I-4, the passing trains full of coal and commuters, the nonstop flow of people down Orange Ave, the crowds of Eola, all of it. I have said before that going to a quiet street in the suburbs would be the death of me. I hope I'm wrong.

As for the progressive nature of new WG residents ... I think you're right. Everyone we met in downtown WG was pretty chill. I've been thinking about the possibility of renting some office space in downtown WG and getting some tech community going there. There's a couple of companies there now but there doesn't seem to be a great deal of activity. Moving in, building things and sharing with others is the best way to spread your ideas, I think.

That said, you need only go north of downtown into the older neighborhoods there to find confederate flags and Trump signs.

I honestly believe WG is going to become a hip progressive neighborhood over the next decade. It just has too many things going for it to remain small and forgotten.

 

[spenser1058]

A few years back, I recall there was an attempt to convert the Edgewater Hotel into some sort of incubator for tech startups but then I never heard anything else and last I heard it was back to being a hotel again. A friend that I worked at 20,000 Leagues Under the Sea with in our college days went on to become an electrical engineer and I notice he had opened an office a few years ago on Plant St. I haven't talked to Glenn in years but I was told by other friends that his firm was specializing in electronics for theme parks which would have been perfect for him.

[JFW657]

I think that for most people, the main criteria for choosing where to live involves economics. IOW, where/what one can afford. After that, I'm guessing, would come such considerations as proximity to one's employment, proximity to good schools for those with children, crime rate, outward appearance...

I'm sure there are some whose situation is such that they don't need to take price, or work/school proximity into consideration and can make the decision based upon things like political leanings and urban ambience, etc. Young, singles with no kids and incomes adequate to afford the higher rents and property values of downtown locales. But I just don't believe the majority of people have that luxury. 

[Jernigan]

Castor, just get instacart or shipt

[John Hargrove]

15 hours ago, JFW657 said:

I think that for most people, the main criteria for choosing where to live involves economics. IOW, where/what one can afford. After that, I'm guessing, would come such considerations as proximity to one's employment, proximity to good schools for those with children, crime rate, outward appearance...

I'm sure there are some whose situation is such that they don't need to take price, or work/school proximity into consideration and can make the decision based upon things like political leanings and urban ambience, etc. Young, singles with no kids and incomes adequate to afford the higher rents and property values of downtown locales. But I just don't believe the majority of people have that luxury. 

I think you're right and its hard to overstate just how important economics are. The further you get down the list of motivators, the more and more those things are "luxuries to most", as you said. Very true.

[jrs2]

^^

What do you mean by "progressive" and people that are "chill"?  Are you talking about the crowd that you typically see at Dandelion's near Mills, or the Plaza of the Americas or former Leonardo's at UF?  Or, are you talking about the crowds you see at East Street Market which is similar to Plant Street Market which is similar to what you see in Napa, CA?  Or, are you talking about Blues and jazz clubs or bars in NOLA?  Or do you mean the crowds you see  in Hookah lounges?

The reason I ask is because last I checked, classic liberals are not Progressives; rather the Left are Progressives, and they parade like they are liberals to draw liberals in to their agenda.  And I don't believe liberals have the same agenda as the Left.  Of course they don't.  Just look at China, Cuba and the Soviet Union and Nazi Germany.  How many liberals thrived in those two types of political systems?  None.  True classic liberals can only thrive in our political system.  And by the Left I mean Socialists.  And you won't find them eating vegan burritos at Dandelion's.  Why?  Because they are corporate elitists.

I personally frequent ALL of these places I mentioned above.  That is my scene.  I'm "chill." I don't hang out at country clubs or honky tonks.  Why?  Because i don't associate with pretentious pricks and drunk rednecks about to get into a bar fight.  It's because I am "chill."  But I am not a Progressive. I'm actually very liberal-somewhat socially and politically.  That word (Progressive) is a deception by the Left because no one really knows what it means.

Politicians throw these terms around.  "I'm for LGBTQ rights and a woman's right to choose", and then liberals  start casting their votes.  But the politicians lie about their end game, which is to eventually take away all of our freedoms.  Research it.  Republicans do the same thing, but I'm talking about "Progressives" here.

There are external forces at play trying to destroy this country right now, and it's a little scary.  We can start a thread and talk about that if anyone actually really gives a sh!t.  But I find that most people are apathetic and the only time they wake from their trance is when they hear those all too familiar catch phrases politicians throw around every four years.

That being said,  with regard to neighborhoods, the standard during the building boom used to be that if gays lived there, then it was a trendy nice place.  I think that standard still exists today b/c gays usually have good taste.  I've got a lot of friends and family that are gay and they all have good taste...expensive taste...but good taste.  And I think that these neighborhoods are usually urban more so than suburban.  I tend to gravitate to the City.  You can hide in the suburbs but I think it's better culturally to talk with people and exchange viewpoints and ideas; to give others important information while learning things you didn't know before.  That's what life is all about.

[John Hargrove]

2 hours ago, jrs2 said:

^^

What do you mean by "progressive" and people that are "chill"?  Are you talking about the crowd that you typically see at Dandelion's near Mills, or the Plaza of the Americas or former Leonardo's at UF?  Or, are you talking about the crowds you see at East Street Market which is similar to Plant Street Market which is similar to what you see in Napa, CA?  Or, are you talking about Blues and jazz clubs or bars in NOLA?  Or do you mean the crowds you see  in Hookah lounges?

The reason I ask is because last I checked, classic liberals are not Progressives; rather the Left are Progressives, and they parade like they are liberals to draw liberals in to their agenda.  And I don't believe liberals have the same agenda as the Left.  Of course they don't.  Just look at China, Cuba and the Soviet Union and Nazi Germany.  How many liberals thrived in those two types of political systems?  None.  True classic liberals can only thrive in our political system.  And by the Left I mean Socialists.  And you won't find them eating vegan burritos at Dandelion's.  Why?  Because they are corporate elitists.

I personally frequent ALL of these places I mentioned above.  That is my scene.  I'm "chill." I don't hang out at country clubs or honky tonks.  Why?  Because i don't associate with pretentious pricks and drunk rednecks about to get into a bar fight.  It's because I am "chill."  But I am not a Progressive. I'm actually very liberal-somewhat socially and politically.  That word (Progressive) is a deception by the Left because no one really knows what it means.

Politicians throw these terms around.  "I'm for LGBTQ rights and a woman's right to choose", and then liberals  start casting their votes.  But the politicians lie about their end game, which is to eventually take away all of our freedoms.  Research it.  Republicans do the same thing, but I'm talking about "Progressives" here.

There are external forces at play trying to destroy this country right now, and it's a little scary.  We can start a thread and talk about that if anyone actually really gives a sh!t.  But I find that most people are apathetic and the only time they wake from their trance is when they hear those all too familiar catch phrases politicians throw around every four years.

That being said,  with regard to neighborhoods, the standard during the building boom used to be that if gays lived there, then it was a trendy nice place.  I think that standard still exists today b/c gays usually have good taste.  I've got a lot of friends and family that are gay and they all have good taste...expensive taste...but good taste.  And I think that these neighborhoods are usually urban more so than suburban.  I tend to gravitate to the City.  You can hide in the suburbs but I think it's better culturally to talk with people and exchange viewpoints and ideas; to give others important information while learning things you didn't know before.  That's what life is all about.

This is a 4 month old post you're replying to so I don't remember my exact frame of mind when I typed it, but I'll do my best.

By "progressive" and "chill" I mean two separate things, I think. You know, if you run into a person who dresses a particular way or exudes a particular vibe, you can approximate some of their politics too. It's not always the case, but it is hard to escape the reality of trends affecting everything, and certain brands of political beliefs are certainly "fashionable". Actually, fashionable politics is a really huge problem in this country but I digress. When it comes to "progressive" itself, I basically mean a left-leaning liberal. The type of person you can walk up to and just say "Trump" and we both shake our heads and move on. I mean, there's a huge section of the population right now that's just looking at the White House with a sort of disbelief and abject astonishment. Not because we lost, or because we're defeated, but that most of us just didn't think America would elect someone like Donald Trump. I mean it's Donald Trump. I think the context of the conversation I'd had with a local was "yeah, loooots of Trump signs out here" and the response was basically, "Haha yeah but overall its pretty good if you can get past that." Young people skew democrat. That's a huge factor too.

As for "chill", I don't think that's a political alignment attribute. Actually in my experience activist/leftist democrats are the least chill people in the universe. I think that stems from a feeling of outrage, a sense of self-righteousness and often a completely inability to understand that not everyone shares their list of priorities. The treatment of gays in our country (and around the world even more so) is certainly a grave injustice. But, if you're an unemployed manufacturing worker who lost their ass in the recession and haven't recovered -- you just can't care about gay rights quite as much. You need to put food on your table and that's a more pressing issue. Liberals often mistake this to mean that these people are awful bigots, but the reality is that most of those people haven't actually thought about it that much. I think you and I can agree on this point about being "chill".

To summarize, I do not equate "chill" and "liberal". Quite the opposite. I'm liberal, but I'm not a very good democrat.

As for your labels about the left. I somewhat agree with you on this front. But it's a very old argument we have with political labels in the US. There is nothing particularly "liberal" about telling people they can't own a firearm. There is undoubted hypocrisy in saying "I should be able to do whatever drug I want as long as I don't hurt anyone", and "People shouldn't be allowed to have guns". They are logically inconsistent positions. So, the reality is that the American Left and the American Right are both liberal in some ways, both authoritarian in some ways, and so on and so on. There is hypocrisy everywhere.

Both parties are terrible, but one of them is demonstrably worse for the average guy. So I vote the other way. And after 4 years of having health insurance thanks to the ACA, I am glad I did.

I moved to Winter Garden by the way. 2 weeks ago.

 

[jrs2]

^^

Yeah, I'm slow when it comes to seeing posts timely.  That other thread got me thinking about stuff when I read your post.

I agree with just about everything you said, about liberals, Trump, drugs, firearms, the ACA, and the two parties.

Ever since this past election, I have become disenchanted with politics.  Trump is not my personal Jesus, but after seeing him battle the media, the Democrats, the Republicans, and the alphabet agencies, I see him as somewhat of a folk hero with crosshairs on his back.  I mean, love him or hate him, he exposed the media as being the propaganda arm of the Elite.  I never saw that before this election because in prior elections BOTH candidates represented the Elite- and they always have. 

Right now, the same people that run the EU and are threatening England and Italy, are undermining our government.  In President Obama's farewell tour, he went to Greece and Germany and preached how nationalism was bad to influence people not to opt out of the EU.  Greeks protested his being there.  Greeks hate the Germans, and they, right now, are some of the biggest offenders in the EU system.   Nevertheless, people like Obama, Ryan, McCain, Bush, Cheney, Kerry, Clinton- all of these people, are what they call globalists.  This stems back to Bush Sr.  The reason they say nationalism is bad, is because if people have strong feelings about national pride, they would never agree to socialism and handing over national sovereignty to another power.  Why do you think Obama hated England?  It was for his father's living conditions etc. in Kenya during British rule. 

They've been accusing Trump of being complicit with Putin.  Yet, those accusing Trump are all globalists that are pro-EU.  They are anti-Russia because they need a scapegoat for losing the election.  But, they are also trying to kill two birds with one stone, because Russia opted out of the EU years ago, so they want to kill their economy with sanctions.  So every time I hear  someone like Schiff and Schumer and Pelosi and Warren and McCain open their fudgeing mouths, I want to see them shot.  Likewise, every time I hear Ryan open his fudgeing mouth and then try to push Ryancare which is a failure and not what Trump wanted, I move the crosshairs over to the right a bit.

We do not live in a democracy.  The Elite control everything.  The Elite are split among the two parties.  The Elites are traitors to this country.  They control the alphabet agencies to a point.  This is how fudgeed we are:  Like him or not, Trump is this country's best and only hope.  That's how bad off we are.  Hillary buys votes.  Do you know how many African-Americans turned their backs on her because they are tired of being used for their votes?  The Republicans buy votes too, I know.  A lot of their constituency voted for Obama.  As for Trump, he's been preaching the same stuff for 40 years regarding the economy and trade.

Did you read the IRS list of which candidates or politicians took money from George Soros?  I think it's despicable unless you consider him a hero.  Just about everyone except for Trump.

This is the litmus test of how fudgeed we are:  As long as they do not abridge the Second Amendment then we're still ok.  Once they do, it's over.  The Second is important because the Elites are not bulletproof and they know we may soon be approaching this country's boiling point.  Not sure if you knew this but Hillary supported a gun registration with the UN- not with DC...with the UN.  Why would a US presidential candidate allow the UN to have that kind of power over American citizens?  No way.  Not ever.  The Elites and the UN are the same bunch of assholes. 

It's ironic.  The Bolsheviks convinced the Russian citizens to overthrow the Czar, and then Lenin and Stalin and Kruchev make their lives a living hell for decades.  The funny thing is, that JP Morgan helped finance the Bolshevik Revolution.  He also shut down Tesla.  Lots of insidiousness in our country's history.

On a lighter note, b/c I just depressed myself talking all this BS, I'm excited for you b/c Winter Garden is becoming very exciting.  All of the latest additions to their downtown are fantastic.  I love the energy there.

 

[jack]

I support the EU mainly because I don't want another war. It was one of the main reason that it was created and I still support that effort. Europe has been fighting for centuries and it is nice to have peace. It may seem that it would not be our problem but somehow we always get dragged in kicking and screaming. 

 

I know people are upset (Trump, Sanders) but I think this country is pretty awesome. The people that are angry tend to have a different opinion of what the government should do. 

[nite owℓ]

On 12/24/2016 at 1:16 PM, castorvx said:

 

I have all of these reservations about WG and probably more. For instance, I really thrive on the energy of the city. It's hard to leave behind the rumble of I-4, the passing trains full of coal and commuters, the nonstop flow of people down Orange Ave, the crowds of Eola, all of it. I have said before that going to a quiet street in the suburbs would be the death of me. I hope I'm wrong.

As for the progressive nature of new WG residents ... I think you're right. Everyone we met in downtown WG was pretty chill. I've been thinking about the possibility of renting some office space in downtown WG and getting some tech community going there. There's a couple of companies there now but there doesn't seem to be a great deal of activity. Moving in, building things and sharing with others is the best way to spread your ideas, I think.

That said, you need only go north of downtown into the older neighborhoods there to find confederate flags and Trump signs.

I honestly believe WG is going to become a hip progressive neighborhood over the next decade. It just has too many things going for it to remain small and forgotten.

 

 

So, how's Winter Garden? Any regrets? Are you satisfied with your decision to leave downtown? Do you like your new house/neighborhood? haha, please be thorough, curious minds want to know

 

[John Hargrove]

1 hour ago, nite owℓ said:

 

So, how's Winter Garden? Any regrets? Are you satisfied with your decision to leave downtown? Do you like your new house/neighborhood? haha, please be thorough, curious minds want to know

 

I am pretty happy with my decision. I do miss downtown. I make a point of getting my hair cut down there (Euro Cuts is great) so I get to revisit often.

People

As for Winter Garden, I have met a lot of very nice people out here. It's a friendly place. That said, there is a small cohort of noisy Facebook posters who are anti-growth. Not a big deal, but worth mentioning. Surely not something that is unique to Winter Garden.

Our Digs

The house we rented is great. It's in a small subdivision (Winter Oaks), and we have a small pond behind our house. That pond is like National Geographic compared to living in Downtown Orlando. Dozens of species of birds. Turtles. One alligator. He's pretty chill, though. We named him Ferdinand. On the flip side, I am constantly fighting off swarms of wasps, and I have already had to remove a snake from my house. I'm sure this is all very normal for most people, but I lived in a high-rise for 10-years, so I'm still adjusting.

The Trail

I'm looking forward to the summer ending so we can get better use of the trail. Honestly, the trail brings a whole dimension of happiness to life that is hard to find elsewhere in the Orlando metro area.

Politics

And I am 98% certain that on my street of 6 homes, 5 of them voted Trump (with us being the exception). So there's that. I try not to think about it, because it has such a negative impact on my view of people, and I want to like my neighbors.

Food

One thing I did not expect was the massive supply of great authentic Mexican food out here. What a pleasant surprise that was. My waistline doesn't appreciate it, but my taste buds do. 

The Future

The future of East Plant Street, continued growth along the west side, and the link up with Downtown Ocoee is a bright future. The trail will expand, the population will grow, and the city seems determined to make sure that is well-managed. If I stay in Florida for the long-term, it is very likely that I will continue to call Winter Garden my home.