Ritz Carlton Hotel /Residential (46 stories & 32 stories, 240 rooms, 150 condos, 185 apts,), 560 capacity garage

[arkitekte]

9 minutes ago, Hey_Hey said:

As for height, here's what I would estimate based on a Lobby and Amenity height of 21 feet since we can use people for perspective:

Lobby level: 21 feet

Parking (6 levels on the KVB circle side @ 9 feet each): 54 feet

Amenity Level: 21 feet

Office floors (24 @ 12 feet each): 288 feet

Fins at the top: 18 feet

Total height: 382 feet

 

Edit: On further inspection, it looks like the top two floors are double height, so it is actually 22 floors instead of 24, but the height would be the same.

Office floor to floor heights are typically 13 to 15 feet to account for drop ceilings. I would add approximately 20 to 40 feet to your total for office height. I might also guestimate a slightly taller lobby, but everything else in your estimate is pretty much spot on. 

[Pdt2f]

7 minutes ago, Hey_Hey said:

One of the problems with the roundabout there and at Music Row is that they are setup differently. For the KVB roundabout, the outer lane MUST exit. For Music Row you can either exit or continue on in the outer lane. That has seemed to cause the most confusion for the KVB roundabout.

Yeah most of the almost-wrecks I’ve had in the KVB roundabout have been because of people swerving across lanes to exit at the last second. Overall though it runs pretty smooth, in my experience. I don’t have much experience in it during the morning rush hour but the rest of the day I’ve been through hundreds of times and it’s much better than a traffic light. 

[Hey_Hey]

1 minute ago, arkitekte said:

Office floor to floor heights are typically 13 to 15 feet to account for drop ceilings. I would add approximately 20 to 40 feet to your total for office height. I might also guestimate a slightly taller lobby, but everything else in your estimate is pretty much spot on. 

That's what I thought as well, but assuming their people are scaled appropriately (which may not be a safe assumption) then 15 is definitely out.  I based my measurements on people height yielding a lobby and amenity height of 21 feet. 

[PruneTracy]

5 minutes ago, Hey_Hey said:

One of the problems with the roundabout there and at Music Row is that they are setup differently. For the KVB roundabout, the outer lane MUST exit. For Music Row you can either exit or continue on in the outer lane. That has seemed to cause the most confusion for the KVB roundabout.

The state of roundabout design and construction in the US when the Music Row roundabout was completed was very different than when the KVB roundabout was completed. Modern standards emphasize the use of lane controls and design to eliminate lane changes within the circulatory roadway (which causes most of the crashes in a roundabout, either directly or indirectly by sending ambiguous signals regarding intent to entering drivers).

To illustrate the point, a driver approaching the KVB roundabout should know before reaching the circulatory roadway which lane to use to make any exit, and once in that lane it's not necessary (and in fact discouraged) to leave that lane. That's not the case with the Music Row roundabout. We actually have a running debate in my office as to whether that's even designed to be a multi-lane roundabout (even though the approaches all have multiple lanes, the circulatory roadway is too narrow, although the piano key pavement treatment that previously was on the roadway implied it was supposed to be two lanes).

This isn't an indictment of the designers of the Music Row roundabout, it's just an indication of how far the state of the practice has come since then. That being said, it does need to be updated, and as always, you should let your councilmember know that a random stranger on the Internet would gladly do this for a reasonable fee.

[Nash_12South]

42 minutes ago, Hey_Hey said:

One of the problems with the roundabout there and at Music Row is that they are setup differently. For the KVB roundabout, the outer lane MUST exit. For Music Row you can either exit or continue on in the outer lane. That has seemed to cause the most confusion for the KVB roundabout.

And no one seems to pay attention as to how it works, they just drive into it and hope for the best.

[markhollin]

This is going to be an interesting building to try and gauge height, because the "front" sides facing KVB and Lafayette are going to be about 25 feet higher up the hill than the "back" sides at the intersection of Lafayette/Peabody/7th Ave. South.  Am anxious to see schematics on how the whole structure will sit on the lot, how 7th Ave. will be utilized (or will it be wiped away?), and to what depth the garage will be dug.  
 

Looking down the 25' slope from KVB and Lafayette circle:

 

The property lines cover over 7th Ave., but we still don't know what the overall plans for the street will be.  Simply an access point into the development? Will this mean the end to the small parking lot for the police precinct just to the east along KVB?  It's only entrance is from 7th Ave. 
 

[nashvylle]

maybe that means 25 feet less of excavation?

[smeagolsfree]

3 hours ago, titanhog said:

If people knew how to use a roundabout, I think it would be ok.  However, it seems to me that 9 out of 10 drivers come up to it and freak out.

I saw someone stopped the other day going the wrong way trying to turn left onto 8th South. The Traffic kept coming around from the correct direction.  All I could say was Dumb A#$. And more times than not, its someone from out of town as I had several issues of people trying to go straight from KVB in the far right lane. Almost been hit there 5 times. Now throw in the traffic of a high -rise, a true Charlie Foxtrot in the makings

[SoundScan]

I've nearly been t-boned three times at the KVB roundabout by drivers entering the roundabout at full speed while failing to yield or even acknowledge that a roundabout exists--as if it is simply a continuation of the roadway they're on. I imagine you'll eventually see traffic signals installed at the entrances to the roundabout to help control flow and aid pedestrian crossings.

[urbanplanet17]

In Detroit, I was taught to always treat intersections yield signs as a 4-way stop (even if you technically have the right-of-way). I know someone who was badly injured driving down the side streets by someone who ran a yield sign, and I had a few close encounters myself.

Since moving down to Georgia, it's been quite a culture shock seeing drivers just casually run the yield signs without actually yielding . In fact, I've been honked at for yielding (forgive me for following the rules of the road!). 

As far as adding a traffic signal to the KVB roundabout, that's what they did with the Campus Martius roundabout in Detroit, granted it's a completely different configuration. 

[Pdt2f]

^People honestly just have no idea what yield means. They need to go on a failure-to-yield ticketing spree, ticketing hundreds of these idiots in a short amount of time so it gets news coverage and they tell all their idiot friends how yield signs apparently aren’t just there to add a splash of red to the streets cape. Sorry, rant over haha. 

[BnaBreaker]

Adding a traffic signal at a roundabout would basically completely defeat it's purpose, which is to keep traffic flowing constantly, at all times, at safe and controlled speeds.  I think people need to just learn what a yield sign means.  Roundabouts really aren't any more complicated than that.  

[Titans10]

 

[SoundScan]

9 hours ago, BnaBreaker said:

Adding a traffic signal at a roundabout would basically completely defeat it's purpose, which is to keep traffic flowing constantly, at all times, at safe and controlled speeds.  I think people need to just learn what a yield sign means.  Roundabouts really aren't any more complicated than that.  

I disagree. If the roundabout has to process a significant amount of vehicle traffic along with significant pedestrian traffic then they start to trend toward inefficient and even unsafe. At that point the solution is to add entry signals for the roundabout (e.g. Columbus Circle in NYC) or replace the roundabout with a traditional controlled intersection (as is happening with many roundabouts in the UK--where roundabouts are ubiquitous). I agree that it would be ideal if drivers would simply understand and follow the rules of the road, but the chance of that happening these days with all the distractions is essentially zero.

[PruneTracy]

5 minutes ago, SoundScan said:

I agree that it would be ideal if drivers would simply understand and follow the rules of the road, but the chance of that happening these days with all the distractions is essentially zero.

The chance that they obey a traffic signal isn't any more than a yield or stop sign. Signals aren't magical devices that turn drivers into law-abiding citizens; they work the same as any other device and if a driver senses that it is reasonably safe to ignore it (especially if they routinely pass through useless ones, as often happens with stop signs) then they're going to ignore it. And a driver who is sufficiently distracted is going to blow through any device you put out there short of retractable bollards or some other destructive device.

[SoundScan]

21 minutes ago, PruneTracy said:

The chance that they obey a traffic signal isn't any more than a yield or stop sign. Signals aren't magical devices that turn drivers into law-abiding citizens; they work the same as any other device and if a driver senses that it is reasonably safe to ignore it (especially if they routinely pass through useless ones, as often happens with stop signs) then they're going to ignore it. And a driver who is sufficiently distracted is going to blow through any device you put out there short of retractable bollards or some other destructive device.

Were we not just discussing that many drivers seem fail to understand the meaning of a yield sign? Do you really believe that a similar number of drivers misinterpret the meaning of red=stop, green=go at a traffic signal?

The problem with some roundabouts in the US is that they don't fit into the context of the greater traffic management infrastructure. Take the KVB roundabout as an example: it's both fed and relieved of traffic by traditional controlled intersections, which means that rather than being fed by consistent flows of vehicles (where roundabouts maximize efficiency) it's instead fed by random, inconsistent chunks of vehicles arriving from the adjacent intersections. Not only that, the adjacent intersections can back up the outflow of the roundabout such that an entire entry point is essentially locked-out from entering. So, we have a roundabout during busy periods that is completely packed with vehicle traffic that must now somehow safely process pedestrians--pretty difficult to do when drivers are tasked with individually assessing and interpreting the situation rather than being instructed as a group (e.g. by a traffic signal) on how and when to proceed.

[SoundScan]

Here is an interesting article regarding roundabout vs. intersection: https://www.theguardian.com/cities/2015/oct/19/traffic-lights-roundabouts-way-out

[Flatrock]

Does seem like an opportunity to play real-life Frogger with a significant chance of pedestrians being splattered on a semi-regular basis. Could this be a case where a pedestrian tunnel would work well? I can guess the arguments: high cost, homeless refuge, scary at night (even well lit), etc.. But with some density, feasibility seems worth checking. Neighboring buildings + City of Nashville pitch in for full time security at night... I dunno, maybe it's designed to possibly connect with the transit station underground in the distant future. 

 

Edited November 3, 2017 by Flatrock

[PruneTracy]

3 hours ago, SoundScan said:

Were we not just discussing that many drivers seem fail to understand the meaning of a yield sign? Do you really believe that a similar number of drivers misinterpret the meaning of red=stop, green=go at a traffic signal?

When you see drivers fail to heed traffic control devices, it's rarely because they fail to understand what message the device is conveying. Instead, it's generally: 1) they couldn't process the message and take action in time; 2) they didn't see it at all; and/or 3) they don't give a flip.

At the all-way stop-controlled intersection in front of my house, the vast majority of vehicles (virtually all) who come up to the intersection will roll through the stop signs if another vehicle isn't in/near the intersection. Is it because they don't understand what "stop" means? No, they just know that they can roll it without causing a crash and they drive through a hundred stop-controlled intersections in the same fashion each day. The same thing would happen if you replaced all the stop signs with signals; you'd see more drivers start to run red lights. Familiarity breeds contempt.

[urbanplanet17]

14 hours ago, PruneTracy said:

When you see drivers fail to heed traffic control devices, it's rarely because they fail to understand what message the device is conveying. Instead, it's generally: 1) they couldn't process the message and take action in time; 2) they didn't see it at all; and/or 3) they don't give a flip.

At the all-way stop-controlled intersection in front of my house, the vast majority of vehicles (virtually all) who come up to the intersection will roll through the stop signs if another vehicle isn't in/near the intersection. Is it because they don't understand what "stop" means? No, they just know that they can roll it without causing a crash and they drive through a hundred stop-controlled intersections in the same fashion each day. The same thing would happen if you replaced all the stop signs with signals; you'd see more drivers start to run red lights. Familiarity breeds contempt.

So basically, to condense your post into two words: "Human Nature." 

[smeagolsfree]

Interestingly, most of the roundabouts in DC now have lights. I do think a lot of that has to do with the amount of pedestrians walking around these areas. The walk signals start at 60 seconds. This is one thing Nashville does not do a good job at and that is the amount of time it gives at lights for pedestrians to get across the street. 

The area around the KVB circle is going to have to be slowed down at some point, especially when and if the One KVB is built. Its already very dangerous for people staying at the Westin and soon the JW to get across 8th. 

They will have to do lights or a catwalk.

[Neigeville2]

I seem to recall some pedestrian underpasses in DC.  They also have places where center lanes pass under the traffic circle without intersecting it or stopping at all, just emerging on the other side, which might be an interesting idea for linking the center lanes of 8th and LaFayette while reducing the lane-change issue. 

It seems really dumb to have lights at a roundabout, and if they go that route the slower movement of traffic is really going to back things up in that part of town.  Especially the people heading south on 8th while they're sitting there waiting for the light to change will be backing traffic up towards Demonbreun which seems already to get pretty crowded. 

Does anyone have numbers on how many serious accidents have happened at Styx circle?  It always seems to work fine when I've been there.  Supposedly most serious accidents are caused by people blithely cruising thru a red light or stop sign, so I don't see why a light would help.  Violent methods (speed bumps or something), might be appropriate though, as well as more aggressive policing of yield signs in general.  I've been honked at on Interstate ramps by people running a yield sign as though I was the one at fault.  

I'd like to see a pedestrian bypass though.  If it goes under it needs to be brightly lit and with a good drain so they can hose the pee away every morning.

[ruraljuror]

1 hour ago, Neigeville2 said:

I seem to recall some pedestrian underpasses in DC.  They also have places where center lanes pass under the traffic circle without intersecting it or stopping at all, just emerging on the other side, which might be an interesting idea for linking the center lanes of 8th and LaFayette while reducing the lane-change issue. 

It seems really dumb to have lights at a roundabout, and if they go that route the slower movement of traffic is really going to back things up in that part of town.  Especially the people heading south on 8th while they're sitting there waiting for the light to change will be backing traffic up towards Demonbreun which seems already to get pretty crowded. 

Does anyone have numbers on how many serious accidents have happened at Styx circle?  It always seems to work fine when I've been there.  Supposedly most serious accidents are caused by people blithely cruising thru a red light or stop sign, so I don't see why a light would help.  Violent methods (speed bumps or something), might be appropriate though, as well as more aggressive policing of yield signs in general.  I've been honked at on Interstate ramps by people running a yield sign as though I was the one at fault.  

I'd like to see a pedestrian bypass though.  If it goes under it needs to be brightly lit and with a good drain so they can hose the pee away every morning.

Why dig a tunnel when we can raise an elevated  pedestrian platform?  I assume it's much cheaper, though I could be wrong.

Stix needs a halo!

Edited November 4, 2017 by ruraljuror

[e-dub]

On 11/2/2017 at 11:47 PM, urbanplanet17 said:

In Detroit, I was taught to always treat intersections yield signs as a 4-way stop (even if you technically have the right-of-way). I know someone who was badly injured driving down the side streets by someone who ran a yield sign, and I had a few close encounters myself.

Since moving down to Georgia, it's been quite a culture shock seeing drivers just casually run the yield signs without actually yielding . In fact, I've been honked at for yielding (forgive me for following the rules of the road!). 

As far as adding a traffic signal to the KVB roundabout, that's what they did with the Campus Martius roundabout in Detroit, granted it's a completely different configuration. 

i love campus martius!

[Titans10]

3 hours ago, ruraljuror said:

Why dig a tunnel when we can raise an elevated  pedestrian platform?  I assume it's much cheaper, though I could be wrong.

Stix needs a halo!