RFP - 201 Market

[Pattmost20]

42 minutes ago, wingbert said:

Basically how I feel. The city is dragging its feet and no developer with any interesting ideas is going to wait around for them. I want there to be a lot more to the winning proposal, but I'm not hopeful.

[Kinkema]

http://www.mlive.com/news/grand-rapids/index.ssf/2017/10/city_picks_indianapolis_firm_t.html#incart_river_home

 

Not much info provided ):

Edited October 18, 2017 by iK1NkY

[GRLaker]

Why is the Hispanic Center of Western Michigan in on the decision making of a large downtown development project?

"The Flaherty & Collins proposal stood out due to its plans for "significant residential" development for a wide range of incomes..."

Wide range of incomes translates into market rate and income restricted. $1,500 for a one bedroom down to "zero positive contribution to the downtown economy" $500 for a one bedroom. Nothing in between.

This is just stupid. What a wasted opportunity.

[localtalent]

Quote

'The Flaherty & Collins proposal stood out due to its plans for "significant residential" development for a wide range of incomes, as well as its "robust" plans for public green space and open space' 

Sounds like a suburban style apartment complex.

No mention of mixed use at all. 

Sad.

 

[scottythe1nonly]

Did we really need to waste all this time and assemble a special "committee" for THIS?

WTF?

[GR_Urbanist]

As long as they keep the " public green space and open space" away from the street, not compromise the street wall, and not create some 60s "housing complex in a park" mess, then that part doesn't bother me too much.

However, this must be built to the road, and HAS to have real retail as its ground-floor focus. Not non-profits, tacky dollar stores, or some nonsense that closes at 6pm.

 

This is already making my head hurt because GR government is a master at fouling stuff like this up with little effort. Why did they use these unaccountable 3rd parties to "advise" them on this instead of putting the three proposals out there and just getting public feedback?

Edited October 18, 2017 by GR_Urbanist

[GRDadof3]

I hear the actual proposal is pretty cool, and Flaherty & Collins were the only ones that addressed the riverfront and they do have plans for mixed use. Rockford's fell flat, and only had the soccer stadium, an office building and LIHTC apartments. Would be nice to see the actual designs. I just received the press release that MLive must have. 

 

[scottythe1nonly]

thankfully this committee didn't decide to sell the empty lots on Fulton to an apartment building developer 25 years ago. 

 

 

[Pattmost20]

5 minutes ago, GRDadof3 said:

I hear the actual proposal is pretty cool, and Flaherty & Collins were the only ones that addressed the riverfront and they do have plans for mixed use. Rockford's fell flat, and only had the soccer stadium, an office building and LIHTC apartments. Would be nice to see the actual designs. I just received the press release that MLive must have. 

 

I thought Rockford's plan addressed the riverfront fairly well. From what I read it seemed to be that those 3 elements were kind of a phase 1 and they would develop further as time went. 

[GVSUChris]

I mean in fairness - we haven't seen anything yet and none of this is saying that it is ALL low-income and ALL parkland with NO retail or great design. I'm sad that we don't have anything to see you BUT I'm also not worried; if I'm being frank I thought that this developer's portfolio was the most interesting in terms of mixed use projects, high-rises, etc. So...here's to hoping we will see SOMETHING sooner than later and not getting to worked up in the meantime. 

[scottythe1nonly]

Why would we waste 16 acres of space in the center of downtown only on apartments?  It will do NOTHING to bring people downtown.  It will not help to continue development in the center of the city.   We could have had a professional sports team and a venue for concerts and other outdoor events that would continue to bring money into the city center.  

I hope the city doesn't continue to set up secret committees like this for future land giveaways




 

 

there's still a due diligence phase to this process.  if there's public outcry for or against one or more of the proposals it could lead to something other than this one being built

 

[joeDowntown]

So wait. I need to understand the bandwagon I'm jumping on: *VERY* few details have been released (other than the developers name and that it includes green space and residential). We haven't seen plans or renderings, but we hate it. Right? I need to know what I'm supposed to write on my protest sign! 

I think the only thing that "sucks" right now is that we were expecting more details and didn't get it (probably of our own doing). I think we need to let this bake for a while before getting all pissed and kicking the dog.

From what I can tell, Flaherty and Collins kind of runs the gamut from a development perspective. From renovated warehouses to glass high-rises. So that narrows it down a bit. 

Here's another article that says absolutely nothing:

https://mibiz.com/item/25210-city-selects-indianapolis-firm’s-proposal-for-further-due-diligence-for-possible-reuse-of-201-market-site

34 minutes ago, scottythe1nonly said:

there's still a due diligence phase to this process.  if there's public outcry for or against one or more of the proposals it could lead to something other than this one being built

So is our public outcry supposed to be against the developer they selected (details of the project unknown), or the 2 developers that weren't picked (details of the project unknown)?

Joe

[localtalent]

7 minutes ago, joeDowntown said:

So is our public outcry supposed to be against the developer they selected (details of the project unknown), or the 2 developers that weren't picked (details of the project unknown)?

Joe

Yes?  :-p

Ok, I will step back from the ledge and put away the pitchforks.

[joeDowntown]

7 minutes ago, localtalent said:

Yes?  :-p

Ok, I will step back from the ledge and put away the pitchforks.

Where's Rob Bliss?  We need a flash mob event, pronto!

[Pattmost20]

34 minutes ago, joeDowntown said:

So wait. I need to understand the bandwagon I'm jumping on: *VERY* few details have been released (other than the developers name and that it includes green space and residential). We haven't seen plans or renderings, but we hate it. Right? I need to know what I'm supposed to write on my protest sign! 

I'm rooting for it to be an interesting plan. I was in favor of Rockford, but they have other options around GR on which to build their development.

[mpchicago]

1 hour ago, GRDadof3 said:

I hear the actual proposal is pretty cool, and Flaherty & Collins were the only ones that addressed the riverfront and they do have plans for mixed use. Rockford's fell flat, and only had the soccer stadium, an office building and LIHTC apartments. Would be nice to see the actual designs. I just received the press release that MLive must have. 

 

Why would they withhold preliminary site plans and or renderings.  Nobody was ever hurt by doing that.  Don't they want the tax payers to be a part of this process on some level?   I assume we will see something soon....I don't want to have to wait another 4 to 6 months for another morsel. 

53 minutes ago, joeDowntown said:

So wait. I need to understand the bandwagon I'm jumping on: *VERY* few details have been released (other than the developers name and that it includes green space and residential). We haven't seen plans or renderings, but we hate it. Right? I need to know what I'm supposed to write on my protest sign! 

I think the only thing that "sucks" right now is that we were expecting more details and didn't get it (probably of our own doing). I think we need to let this bake for a while before getting all pissed and kicking the dog.

Agree with Joe - We have almost, no information about this.  To early to call for a mutiny.    But come on, the city needs to release some details.

Edited October 18, 2017 by mpchicago

[GRDadof3]

16 hours ago, joeDowntown said:

So wait. I need to understand the bandwagon I'm jumping on: *VERY* few details have been released (other than the developers name and that it includes green space and residential). We haven't seen plans or renderings, but we hate it. Right? I need to know what I'm supposed to write on my protest sign! 

I think the only thing that "sucks" right now is that we were expecting more details and didn't get it (probably of our own doing). I think we need to let this bake for a while before getting all pissed and kicking the dog.

From what I can tell, Flaherty and Collins kind of runs the gamut from a development perspective. From renovated warehouses to glass high-rises. So that narrows it down a bit. 

Here's another article that says absolutely nothing:

https://mibiz.com/item/25210-city-selects-indianapolis-firm’s-proposal-for-further-due-diligence-for-possible-reuse-of-201-market-site

So is our public outcry supposed to be against the developer they selected (details of the project unknown), or the 2 developers that weren't picked (details of the project unknown)?

Joe

By my count, there isn't much objection to Flaherty  & Collins being chosen.  Most people (outside this forum) probably read the news today and don't have a clue about any of this.  

 There are no pitchforks. There is nothing. 

I kind of would have liked to see the actual proposals, much like the UICA site when all three were shown to the public. BUT, in retrospect showing all three on that one didn't produce the best result either, and the final product looked nothing like the proposal that won. 

Edited for tone. 

[GRLaker]

8 hours ago, GRDadof3 said:

By my count, there isn't much objection to Flaherty  & Collins being chosen.  Most people (outside this forum) probably read the news today and don't have a clue about any of this.  

 There are no pitchforks. There is nothing. 

I kind of would have liked to see the actual proposals, much like the UICA site when all three were shown to the public. BUT, in retrospect showing all three on that one didn't produce the best result either, and the final product looked nothing like the proposal that won. 

Edited for tone. 

Agreed. No pitchforks from me. Just extreme disappointment. It may look cool, but it had the potential to be a draw for the entire area with mixed use - entertainment, housing, dining, green space. That doesn't appear to be the case based on the MLive article - as vague as it may be.

[GRDadof3]

5 minutes ago, GRLaker said:

Agreed. No pitchforks from me. Just extreme disappointment. It may look cool, but it had the potential to be a draw for the entire area with mixed use - entertainment, housing, dining, green space. That doesn't appear to be the case based on the MLive article - as vague as it may be.

Honestly I think you're misreading the article, or maybe reading into it. I'll post the entire release from the city here in a minute. 

I think what the city is saying is that F&C was chosen because of the amount of residential in their plans, but not that it was the ONLY thing in the plans. 

This was really the only thing released yesterday. 

[GRDadof3]

The city is not releasing any more details at this time. 

I'm actually excited to have more outsider blood in the area, FWIW.

[thebeerqueer]

19 hours ago, GRLaker said:

Why is the Hispanic Center of Western Michigan in on the decision making of a large downtown development project?

"The Flaherty & Collins proposal stood out due to its plans for "significant residential" development for a wide range of incomes..."

Wide range of incomes translates into market rate and income restricted. $1,500 for a one bedroom down to "zero positive contribution to the downtown economy" $500 for a one bedroom. Nothing in between.

This is just stupid. What a wasted opportunity.

I know I'm a little late to this discussion but whoa! check your privilege at the door.  Mixed income housing done well within the same development tends to benefit everyone .

I'm glad everyone has calmed down a bit with the zero details we've seen so far. I know most folk here had super high expectations for this site and while I agree that the city of GR is highly skilled at botching major projects like this, I'm confident that the right people are scrutinizing every aspect of this design. 

[demhem]

19 hours ago, GR_Urbanist said:

Like if you are that broke that you need "affordable housing", then why on Earth do you want to live in the DT area? So you can stay up in your low-income apartment because you have no money?

We have more than enough of that and homeless people down there, contributing next to nothing to the little retail we have.

Oh wait, we did just land a Dollar General. So I suppose that is something. /s

Please tell me that this comment was a mistake and that you jumped to conclusions in frustration. Walkable urban areas (particularly fringe downtown areas) provide immediate access to employment and transit so that one does not have to own a vehicle (especially when they can't afford one). Also, do the human beings that work cleaning the hotels, cooking in the kitchens, and vacuuming the offices not deserve to live NEAR where they work? This is a well-documented issue in many cities. Those who work the minimum wage jobs in our downtowns must commute hours in some circumstances because they cannot afford to live anywhere near their place of employment. It's not like the entire project will be affordable housing; that lesson was learned long ago. IMO, we don't have enough details to sufficiently critique it, nor do we have the details regarding what they consider "mixed-income" as that could mean a variety of approaches. 

[demhem]

19 hours ago, GRLaker said:

Why is the Hispanic Center of Western Michigan in on the decision making of a large downtown development project?

"The Flaherty & Collins proposal stood out due to its plans for "significant residential" development for a wide range of incomes..."

Wide range of incomes translates into market rate and income restricted. $1,500 for a one bedroom down to "zero positive contribution to the downtown economy" $500 for a one bedroom. Nothing in between.

This is just stupid. What a wasted opportunity.

This project is adjacent to the Roosevelt Park neighborhood which contains the largest Hispanic and Latino population in Grand Rapids. Including the Hispanic Center in the discussion was a good strategic decision IMO. 

[GR_Urbanist]

15 minutes ago, demhem said:

Please tell me that this comment was a mistake

It wasn't Too many DT and near DT projects keep skewing towards these "low-income" subsidized projects in order to get tax credits. It stuffs too many people on the low end, that have no disposable income to support retail we need DT.

In the end they are just going to have to hop on a bus to go out to the burbs if you cant get anything DT because the people with money (that will be the support base for these places) cant get a unit because there are simply too many LHITC units, and they make too much to live there.

Now will this have a lot of those units? I dont know. I'm just not thrilled that it is even a requirement for a project as vital as this, because that will just lead to a bunch of value engineering by the developers in order to make the numbers work if there are too many.

This projects needs to be a working part of DT first and foremost, that is contributing to the economic base down there, not just a glorified apartment complex to park people that can do little else but work, pay the rent, rinse and repeat. I'm not trying to be mean.

 

A few units are fine. Hopefully not 50%+.

[GRDadof3]

22 hours ago, GR_Urbanist said:

It wasn't Too many DT and near DT projects keep skewing towards these "low-income" subsidized projects in order to get tax credits. It stuffs too many people on the low end, that have no disposable income to support retail we need DT.

In the end they are just going to have to hop on a bus to go out to the burbs if you cant get anything DT because the people with money (that will be the support base for these places) cant get a unit because there are simply too many LHITC units, and they make too much to live there.

Now will this have a lot of those units? I dont know. I'm just not thrilled that it is even a requirement for a project as vital as this, because that will just lead to a bunch of value engineering by the developers in order to make the numbers work if there are too many.

This projects needs to be a working part of DT first and foremost, that is contributing to the economic base down there, not just a glorified apartment complex to park people that can do little else but work, pay the rent, rinse and repeat. I'm not trying to be mean.

 

A few units are fine. Hopefully not 50%+.

I think 30% affordable housing is a benchmark that a lot of peer cities have set or are setting as a goal.