RFP - 201 Market

[joeDowntown]

The City Commission agreed to sell 11.6 of the 17 acre parcel to the GRCVB/CAA for the Amphitheater project. It'll be interesting to see the conceptual plans on the 24th, plus what will happen to the other ~6 acres of property in the future.

Joe

[MJLO]

Am I the only person who doesn't get excited  when I hear Amphitheater?  I picture a space that can be realistically used for maybe 7.5 months a year, redundant with several other venues downtown, and then otherwise an activity dead zone.   I am not trying to be negative, I truly don't know how beneficial it would be.  Are they expecting this to be another catalyst for revitalization, or will it just be a marketing asset the city will use once conventions and other events start back up again?   Can someone list the positives that should me make more enthused about this land being used for this purpose?

[Chester Cheeto]

29 minutes ago, MJLO said:

Am I the only person who doesn't get excited  when I hear Amphitheater?  I picture a space that can be realistically used for maybe 7.5 months a year, redundant with several other venues downtown, and then otherwise an activity dead zone.   I am not trying to be negative, I truly don't know how beneficial it would be.  Are they expecting this to be another catalyst for revitalization, or will it just be a marketing asset the city will use once conventions and other events start back up again?   Can someone list the positives that should me make more enthused about this land being used for this purpose?

I feel pretty much the same. It doesn't make sense to me that this is the best use of this land.

[JoeSchmo]

1 hour ago, MJLO said:

 I picture a space that can be realistically used for maybe 7.5 months a year, 

Not to mention during those 7.5months a year...it will likely only be used a few times a week for a few hours. 

[HomePortSupplyCo]

2 hours ago, MJLO said:

Am I the only person who doesn't get excited  when I hear Amphitheater?  I picture a space that can be realistically used for maybe 7.5 months a year, redundant with several other venues downtown, and then otherwise an activity dead zone.   I am not trying to be negative, I truly don't know how beneficial it would be.  Are they expecting this to be another catalyst for revitalization, or will it just be a marketing asset the city will use once conventions and other events start back up again?   Can someone list the positives that should me make more enthused about this land being used for this purpose?

Haven't put much thought into this...   But if did move forward, maybe integrate a downtown sledding hill?  Not sure what elevation change a typical amphitheater has though.  Maybe add some snowmelt stairs for both those sledding and as a winter excercise activity to go along with the nearby Planet Fitness?

[HavingAhoot]

I like to think of it as a larger Rosa Parks Circle. It a location where not just music happens but an allure to get people over there then create business and atmosphere. You could do thing like sledding skating, Ice sculptures in winter, Taste of GR, laying out on a sunny lunch hour ect. Now is this the BEST use for the city IDK? Would a Ballpark or whatever the other ideas be anything better? An area that draws people to it sure creates a lot of other business around it.

[Prankster]

53 minutes ago, HavingAhoot said:

I like to think of it as a larger Rosa Parks Circle. It a location where not just music happens but an allure to get people over there then create business and atmosphere. You could do thing like sledding skating, Ice sculptures in winter, Taste of GR, laying out on a sunny lunch hour ect. Now is this the BEST use for the city IDK? Would a Ballpark or whatever the other ideas be anything better? An area that draws people to it sure creates a lot of other business around it.

That is assuming that it will be open to the public and not having some sort of fence around it. 

[MJLO]

I guess if this is event space that can also be open space for the public it’s better.  At least at that point it would be come more of a draw to that boundary of downtown. 

IMO the city should just abandon the property and relocate those departments on its own.  I’m sure at the time those facilities were built that was the best use of the space, but now it’s an obstacle to a prime space in an area that could explode with investment.  I think they were being naive, or perhaps even a bit hubris in thinking that the city had reached a point to sustain the type of mass scale development they were looking for.   I think the incubation process that’s been used in Grand Rapids over the last few decades is still necessary to continue expanding the boundaries of the core.    Move the departments at the cities cost.  Open up the parcels and put in the infrastructure to make the river more accessible there.  It will be at a cost, but I think it would pay for itself fairly quickly as it would turn property that currently is an expense into a revenue generating area fairly quickly. 

[Khorasaurus1]

1 minute ago, MJLO said:

IMO the city should just abandon the property and relocate those departments on its own.  I’m sure at the time those facilities were built that was the best use of the space, but now it’s an obstacle to a prime space in an area that could explode with investment.  I think they were being naive, or perhaps even a bit hubris in thinking that the city had reached a point to sustain the type of mass scale development they were looking for.   I think the incubation process that’s been used in Grand Rapids over the last few decades is still necessary to continue expanding the boundaries of the core.    Move the departments at the cities cost.  Open up the parcels and put in the infrastructure to make the river more accessible there.  It will be at a cost, but I think it would pay for itself fairly quickly as it would turn property that currently is an expense into a revenue generating area fairly quickly. 

That's an interesting idea. Move the departments, re-plat the land to create a waterfront park, a street or two leading to the waterfront park, and a series of individual development sites. Use the development sites as DASH parking lots until someone buys each one.

It would take more  up front capital from the city, but in the end they'd get 3-4 new developments and a new park, and they might actually get more total from the sale, even though they'd sell less land. 

[cstonesparty]

I think that location for the amphitheater is a traffic nightmare.  Most shows are likely to be evening shows.  Commute-time traffic both directions in the S-curve is already accident prone without the addition of this traffic simultaneously pouring through the S-curve. 

I also think these are likely to be captive audiences that aren't going to benefit downtown much, so they might as well put this facility in the burbs somewhere.  Anyone familiar enough with facilities like the one they put on Meigs Field or in downtown Nashville to know if they generate foot traffic in surrounding areas?

[Pattmost20]

27 minutes ago, cstonesparty said:

Anyone familiar enough with facilities like the one they put on Meigs Field or in downtown Nashville to know if they generate foot traffic in surrounding areas?

I just texted my buddy from Nashville to get his thoughts, He said overall he feels like it has been a positive development for Nashville. The only complaints have been from the neighborhood across the river due to the noise, but they have put a noise curfew in place.

[cstonesparty]

13 minutes ago, Pattmost20 said:

I just texted my buddy from Nashville to get his thoughts, He said overall he feels like it has been a positive development for Nashville. The only complaints have been from the neighborhood across the river due to the noise, but they have put a noise curfew in place.

Nashville could be a really good comparison to study...

[joeDowntown]

People seem a little grumpy today? LOL. Based on all of the questions asked, there was a Q&A with the econ club that seemed to answer a lot of the concerns:

• Development of a new concert and entertainment event amphitheater, designed with surrounding assets and configured to allow for year-round community activity
• They have been charged with presenting designs for a dramatic riverfront that could include an amphitheater, greenspace and other year-round community-based amenities and attractions. Their work is slated for completion in January 2021.

Kaatz showed the Econ Club attendees a presentation with several case studies from around the country that could inspire possible waterfront-activated concepts for the Market Avenue development, including:

• The Ascend Amphitheater in Nashville, Tennessee, an open-air venue with a year-round green space activity zone outside the theater that can be used for festivals, farmers markets, fundraisers, graduations, political rallies, sledding and skating
• The District Wharf in Washington, D.C., with activities right on the water, waterfront shops, restaurants, concerts and more
• The Proxy, a two-block shipping container park in San Francisco with pop-up retail, restaurants and food entrepreneurs testing new concepts
• The Maggie Daley Park on the shore of Lake Michigan in Chicago, which has a climbing wall, fieldhouse, picnic areas, play garden, ice skating ribbon, mini golf and more
• The Gathering Place in Tulsa, Oklahoma, which has a kayak launch, restaurants, an inclusive play area, art installations and murals
• The Adventure Forest along the South Platte River in Denver, Colorado, an adventure course and recreation park
• Ralph C. Wilson Jr. Centennial Park on the West Riverfront in Detroit, which, when completed, will feature a water component, sport house with basketball courts, play garden with an array of animal structures for kids to climb in and around, and a large lawn that will be used for special events and programming
• The Robert C. Valade Park along the Detroit River, which features a sandy beach with chairs and umbrellas, a children’s musical garden, colorful playscapes for kids, a community barbecue pavilion and Bob’s Barge, which is Detroit’s only floating bar each summer. The park also is home to The Shed, a 3,600-square-foot building for food, events and programming, and in the winter, Valade Park features oversized outdoor fireplaces, hot drinks, marshmallow roasters, sledding, synthetic ice curling and more
• Shreve, of Populous, said one of the goals with Grand Rapids’ riverfront development project is to activate the many bridges across the Grand River.

Also, it's not THAT far from all of the developments south of Fulton. Founders is right there, the Arena district and Studio Park are close. As far as traffic, DTE is in a pretty low-key area and they have massive traffic problems (limited entrances/exits. I actually think the amphitheater downtown benefits from the multiple streets, access to parking, and the fact that people can park farther away, eat, meander over, etc. 

I hope they keep the grass area open when the events aren't open. Millenium Park in Chicago does a great job keeping Pritzker Pavillion open a majority of the time.

I'm having a hard time finding negatives in an attraction that drives people downtown, makes the city more vibrant, and hopefully opens up a long portion of riverfront that has been basically off limits for decades (or maybe even a century?!). :shrug:

Joe

 

[JoeSchmo]

13 hours ago, joeDowntown said:

I hope they keep the grass area open when the events aren't open. Millenium Park in Chicago does a great job keeping Pritzker Pavillion open a majority of the time.

I think this is significant as far as what is decided here.  If it is just an outdoor arena that has only ticket access...I am less than thrilled with it.   If it can be a green space that is usually open to the public that could be very cool.

I am excited about expanding the riverfront though.  I think it could be very cool if someday much of the riverfront was open ...connecting the Kent Trails through Riverside Park  right through the city.

[grandrollerz]

I am very excited.  Having been to the Austin Reggae Fest at Auditorium Shoes....and watching the opening of this video of daft punk in Grant Park https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=udvYSd2TIkg i for one am super excited to have a downtown, outdoor music and festival venue. so many more opportunities. Founders festivals could migrate over there for sure.  I think i'll start my own reggae festival now so maybe i won't have to travel to Austin, TX  to catch reggae acts.

one would hope that we'd apply our COVID outdoor approach to a concert venue to allow it to be used year round.

 

 

[wingbert]

Now if they could dredge the river to allow people to bring large boats up from Grand Haven to enjoy the amphitheater and its surrounds, THAT would be game changer!  

[GRDadof3]

Am I an idiot? What happened to the soccer stadium talked about for this site? 

[joeDowntown]

I think we’ll find out more for the whole area (Devos property, etc.) on the 24th. I haven’t heard anything to indicate that they aren’t working on soccer stadium plans. 

Joe

[Khorasaurus1]

52 minutes ago, GRDadof3 said:

Am I an idiot? What happened to the soccer stadium talked about for this site? 

If this is going to have 14,000 seats, it could potentially be a multi-use venue. Designing something that would work for both soccer and concerts, and allow 365 day public riverfront access, would be pretty complex, though. 

[GRDadof3]

If they're comparing it to the Ascend Amphitheater, the 201 Market site looks to be maybe 40% larger. Ascend has a large park area. 

If someone can do a scaled photoshop of the Ascend site overlayed on 201, that'd be great.  

I really think the city could get away with not providing any onsite parking at this site. People walk from this area to downtown for shows, and from the West Side to downtown for shows and events, what's the difference then from walking from downtown to this site? Or the West Side lots to this site? Especially in nicer weather. Bars and restaurants could even set up their own shuttle services (Ionia District shuttle, hotel district shuttle, etc.)

[cstonesparty]

16 minutes ago, GRDadof3 said:

I really think the city could get away with not providing any onsite parking at this site. People walk from this area to downtown for shows, and from the West Side to downtown for shows and events, what's the difference then from walking from downtown to this site? Or the West Side lots to this site? Especially in nicer weather. Bars and restaurants could even set up their own shuttle services (Ionia District shuttle, hotel district shuttle, etc.)

 

On the opposite side of the river from the shot you posted is an ocean of parking for the Titans football stadium.  Don't misunderstand that photo to imply there isn't a tremendous amount of parking connected to that site.  

[joeDowntown]

QUITE a bit of room (as long as Google Maps measurements are correct). Also, as I was looking at this (and reading what @cstonesparty said about Titan's parking across the river), I think it would be awesome to have a pedestrian bridge from this area, to "Jackson Island" (could it become an accessible park with a nature trail or two?) and across to the west side. Since the Amphitheater would mainly be used in the summer, seems like GVSU could make some $$ / absorb some of the parking crunch during concerts.

NOTE: I plopped this down where it fit, not necessarily how I think they'll orient the amphitheater (I'd image the stage would be closer to the river with the berm/seating area along Market or the off-ramp).

[joeDowntown]

Another comparison. I had posted this back in 2019 in another thread (when they were still looking at Millenium park). This also gives a good idea of how an amphitheater might fit on the property (and just how much property is actually available):

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Grand Rapids has talked about removing flood walls for "flood protection systems". Basically, a stepped approach that allows the river to swell and recede, while allowing people to interact with the river. I wonder if it would be possible to build an amphitheater along the river that could serve as a flood protection system. Basically, build it in a way that would allow the seating areas to flood (if necessary in the spring) while building the stage to a level that wouldn't flood. 

I started looking at Amphitheaters, the the Bayfront Park Amphitheater in Miami is pretty interesting. It seats 10,000:

The Klipsch Amphitheater at Bayfront Park has a capacity of has a seating capacity of 10,000 people: 2,672 fixed benches and 7,328 in the lawn. The best seats are of course the fixed benches but due to the angle, the lawn will also give unprecedented views.

Here's some photo's:

 

 

I looked at the area around market street, and it would squeeze in pretty well, with additional room for development along Market, and to the south. This might also work on the property the County put up for sale recently on Front street, but I don't know if it would have the appeal / infrastructure in place to handle the traffic (but it could serve the same purpose. A eco/river friendly amphitheater that seats 10,000 on the banks of the Grand River. Here's how that sized amphitheater would fit on the Market lots:

 

[GRDadof3]

3 hours ago, joeDowntown said:

QUITE a bit of room (as long as Google Maps measurements are correct). Also, as I was looking at this (and reading what @cstonesparty said about Titan's parking across the river), I think it would be awesome to have a pedestrian bridge from this area, to "Jackson Island" (could it become an accessible park with a nature trail or two?) and across to the west side. Since the Amphitheater would mainly be used in the summer, seems like GVSU could make some $$ / absorb some of the parking crunch during concerts.

NOTE: I plopped this down where it fit, not necessarily how I think they'll orient the amphitheater (I'd image the stage would be closer to the river with the berm/seating area along Market or the off-ramp).

They'd definitely situate the amphitheater so that downtown was BEHIND the stage. You have it flipped.

[GRDadof3]

15 hours ago, cstonesparty said:

On the opposite side of the river from the shot you posted is an ocean of parking for the Titans football stadium.  Don't misunderstand that photo to imply there isn't a tremendous amount of parking connected to that site.  

I wasn't suggesting that. I'm just saying with the Studio Park ramp open, and all the other ramps and lots, I think 14,000 people could easily be absorbed in the current system. Just provide handicap parking on site and call it a day.