RFP - 201 Market

[joeDowntown]

I like the design of the amphitheater. I also like how the lawn area doubles as a flood wall. 

It would be amazing if they built a few tall buildings south of 132 (at 201 Market), with additional buildings north of the expressway on the Fulton/Market lot DeVos owns. Since they helped foot the bill for the sewer move, I have to think they have a major project waiting in the wings.

Joe

[Cookin_peacocks]

1 hour ago, joeDowntown said:

I like the design of the amphitheater. I also like how the lawn area doubles as a flood wall. 

It would be amazing if they built a few tall buildings south of 132 (at 201 Market), with additional buildings north of the expressway on the Fulton/Market lot DeVos owns. Since they helped foot the bill for the sewer move, I have to think they have a major project waiting in the wings.

Joe

I can not confirm the details. But I can confirm that when that lot is utilized, it will be major. The plans I've heard are skyline changing. But they're waiting for 201 to begin development. Once that's finalized, you should see that lots plans emerge. 

 

Edited July 20, 2021 by Cookin_peacocks

[WMrapids]

9 hours ago, GVSUChris said:

So I walked over from my office and what you saw was in the Grand Action 2.0 office. I tried to take a “better” picture and failed haha. 
 

Here are the images straightened both colored and in black and white.
 

The important thing to notice here is that this is all north of 131. This isn’t including the Market properties south of 131.

The amphitheater looks like it is facing the core of downtown (NE) and is located north of 131 on the SW corner of Fulton and Market. Like mentioned above, it looks like there is a pretty substantial flood wall with an overlook branching from the amphitheater. Interestingly, there is even more of the development not pictured closer to 131 that looks like an eating area with a canopy facing the amphitheater. The two towers are tucked close to the Fulton/Market intersection.

 

In the second set of images, we are facing the amphitheater. There appears to be a building running along Market from the smaller tower beside the amphitheater. On this liner building, there appears to be a deck with an eating area facing the amphitheater while on the ground level, retail is present. For the towers, the tallest is approximately 40 stories while the second tower is about 25 stories.

Edited July 21, 2021 by WMrapids

[GRDadof3]

10 hours ago, WMrapids said:

Here are the images straightened both colored and in black and white.
 

The important thing to notice here is that this is all north of 131. This isn’t including the Market properties south of 131.

The amphitheater looks like it is facing the core of downtown (NE) and is located north of 131 on the SW corner of Fulton and Market. Like mentioned above, it looks like there is a pretty substantial flood wall with an overlook branching from the amphitheater. Interestingly, there is even more of the development not pictured closer to 131 that looks like an eating area with a canopy facing the amphitheater. The two towers are tucked close to the Fulton/Market intersection.

 

In the second set of images, we are facing the amphitheater. There appears to be a building running along Market from the smaller tower beside the amphitheater. On this liner building, there appears to be a deck with an eating area facing the amphitheater while on the ground level, retail is present. For the towers, the tallest is approximately 40 stories while the second tower is about 25 stories.

Good eye! It looks too that there's a massive delivery truck along the South edge of the photo.   Perhaps the Amway families have offered up a big chunk of the their Market/Fulton lot for the amphitheater. I can see why they'd want that, as it would be "in downtown" vs down Market. In the mix of the arena, 20 Monroe Live (or whatever it's called now). 

If we already have an amphitheater thread, we should probably move this over there. 

Proposing the project at Market and Fulton might be due to the less than lukewarm reception by the county (CAA) having to foot the bill to purchase property at 201 Market:

https://www.mlive.com/news/grand-rapids/2021/05/location-of-proposed-grand-rapids-amphitheater-questioned-by-kent-county-commissioner.html

[joeDowntown]

I merged topics. Although, if this rendering stands, we may need to move this to a Fulton/Market thread. 

I actually like the idea of developing the Fulton/Market lots and keeping the density a little closer to downtown. but it brings up a couple of questions:

1. Which concept is the most recent? Populous just did a big presentation on what the 201 Market location should look like. Is that the latest? Or are the renderings in Grand Action's windows the latest?

2. If they push everything to the Fulton/Market lot, what happens to 201 Market? I have to imagine the City is going to use the proceeds from the 201 Market location to offset the cost of moving to the old County facilities

3. I wonder if Grand Action will propose putting the Soccer Stadium on 201 Market instead (I still like the idea of a west side stadium). 

So many questions...  I also wonder if moving the Amphitheater to the Market lot would make it an easier sell for the county? Maybe they shifted locations after Commissioners tossed out ideas of putting it in Sparta (or other locations)? Maybe the land would be donated or sold at a reduced rate to keep it downtown?

Finally, and this is total speculation ... I wonder if one of the towers shown will be anchored by Amway? I heard that the corporate office will be down to 1/3rd it's staff after another round of cuts. Wonder if this proposal will be a "right-sizing" exercise by Amway?

Joe

[GRDadof3]

51 minutes ago, joeDowntown said:

I merged topics. Although, if this rendering stands, we may need to move this to a Fulton/Market thread. 

I actually like the idea of developing the Fulton/Market lots and keeping the density a little closer to downtown. but it brings up a couple of questions:

1. Which concept is the most recent? Populous just did a big presentation on what the 201 Market location should look like. Is that the latest? Or are the renderings in Grand Action's windows the latest?

2. If they push everything to the Fulton/Market lot, what happens to 201 Market? I have to imagine the City is going to use the proceeds from the 201 Market location to offset the cost of moving to the old County facilities

3. I wonder if Grand Action will propose putting the Soccer Stadium on 201 Market instead (I still like the idea of a west side stadium). 

So many questions...  I also wonder if moving the Amphitheater to the Market lot would make it an easier sell for the county? Maybe they shifted locations after Commissioners tossed out ideas of putting it in Sparta (or other locations)? Maybe the land would be donated or sold at a reduced rate to keep it downtown?

Finally, and this is total speculation ... I wonder if one of the towers shown will be anchored by Amway? I heard that the corporate office will be down to 1/3rd it's staff after another round of cuts. Wonder if this proposal will be a "right-sizing" exercise by Amway?

Joe

Did the 201 Market proposal feature an amphitheater in it? I can't recall. I remember a big bridge over 131. 

[joeDowntown]

Yep. Along Market, south of 131. I'm curious which plan is newer. 

Joe

[GVSUChris]

15 minutes ago, joeDowntown said:

Yep. Along Market, south of 131. I'm curious which plan is newer. 

Joe

As someone who walks by that office almost daily I can say that those renderings went up WAY after the first plans were shared. 

[GRDadof3]

1 hour ago, GVSUChris said:

As someone who walks by that office almost daily I can say that those renderings went up WAY after the first plans were shared. 

If this plan is legit (which PAE partnering with CallisonRTKL seems pretty legit), then it's really bold for Grand Action to post those images in their window. Maybe they just wanted us UPlaneteers to see them and give feedback. A pseudo focus group. 

[grandrollerz]

On 6/16/2021 at 12:02 PM, walker said:

So the city is going to buy the property along the river off Scribner from the county and consolidate all their facilities there that are currently at 201 Market.  Then the Market site can become an amphitheater that will likely be a dead spot except for an occasional concert evening.  Doesn't seem to me to be a particular good use of either river front property.

MLIVE: grand-rapids-poised-to-purchase-14-acres-along-grand-river-paving-the-way-for-proposed-amphitheater

City Government spends $8M to buy prime riverfront property on Scribner so it can abandon its current prime riverfront property on Market. 

I'm so confused. Is there not a parcel anywhere else they could use? or maybe multiple smaller sites with distributed equipment?  sure, I'm not a government person, but does this seem silly to anyone else?

Here's a property in Rockford that is similarly sized, only $500K and is also....riverfront!!!  https://www.zillow.com/homedetails/8099-Jericho-Ave-NE-Rockford-MI-49341/101630598_zpid/    ()

 

[GRDadof3]

1 minute ago, grandrollerz said:

City Government spends $8M to buy prime riverfront property on Scribner so it can abandon its current prime riverfront property on Market. 

I'm so confused. Is there not a parcel anywhere else they could use? or maybe multiple smaller sites with distributed equipment?  sure, I'm not a government person, but does this seem silly to anyone else?

Here's a property in Rockford that is similarly sized, only $500K and is also....riverfront!!!  https://www.zillow.com/homedetails/8099-Jericho-Ave-NE-Rockford-MI-49341/101630598_zpid/    ()

 

Actually no, I don't think so. I know the city was really struggling back when they first talked about this, to find property suitable for relocating their services. But really, the county land squeezed between 131 and the river way far from downtown in an industrial area? It's hardly prime real estate. Not all riverfront property is good property (ask all those people who live along the Grand River in a floodplain, that regularly floods). 

[joeDowntown]

36 minutes ago, GRDadof3 said:

Actually no, I don't think so. I know the city was really struggling back when they first talked about this, to find property suitable for relocating their services. But really, the county land squeezed between 131 and the river way far from downtown in an industrial area? It's hardly prime real estate. Not all riverfront property is good property (ask all those people who live along the Grand River in a floodplain, that regularly floods). 

Also, almost any location is going to have to a lot of infrastructure improvements, parking, etc. plus NIMBYs, committees, etc. So the cost of land may not be as big a factor when you start adding it all up. 

[GRDadof3]

14 hours ago, joeDowntown said:

Also, almost any location is going to have to a lot of infrastructure improvements, parking, etc. plus NIMBYs, committees, etc. So the cost of land may not be as big a factor when you start adding it all up. 

From this article in June, the CAA (Kent County Convention and Arena Authority) would have an option on the Northern part of 201 Market. Which begs the question, if the CAA does not exercise this option and goes with the Market and Fulton lot (21 Market) with some deal with the Amway people, then what becomes of 201 Market? I do think it's way more marketable with city services moved and the sewer relocation. If the city just tears down the buildings and makes it a blank slate (with park land included), I think we'd see a rush of developers come in.

I think the county's big beef with downtown has always been that a DDA district captures a lot of taxes that would normally go to the county, and pumps those back into downtown infrastructure and amenities. So why should they foot the bill for $24.5 Million for an amphitheater that will produce no new taxes for them. What they forget to realize is that a vibrant thriving downtown has helped Grand Rapids/Kent County/West Michigan become one of the most desirable places to live in Michigan (and maybe in the Midwest). 

An amphitheater in Sparta does nothing for this region, really. 

 

The CAA has until June 30 to exercise its option on 201 Market, but that deadline can be extended. Under the option agreement, the authority is able to purchase 11.6 acres of the property on the northern end for an estimated $24.5 million.

 

 

Earlier this year, a public-private partnership was developed to relocate a sewer trunk line currently barring redevelopment of the Market Avenue corridor, including the proposed amphitheater space, at a cost of $18.6 million.

 

 

The relocation cost will be split between Grand Rapids, the CAA, Amway Hotel Corporation and a DeVos family company.

[walker]

On 7/22/2021 at 8:16 AM, GRDadof3 said:

 

Earlier this year, a public-private partnership was developed to relocate a sewer trunk line currently barring redevelopment of the Market Avenue corridor, including the proposed amphitheater space, at a cost of $18.6 million.

 

The relocation cost will be split between Grand Rapids, the CAA, Amway Hotel Corporation and a DeVos family company.

Took this today on Market north of the RR tracks.  I imagine this is for the sewer trunk line relocation:

Not nearly as exciting as a crane going up.

[GRDadof3]

18 hours ago, walker said:

Took this today on Market north of the RR tracks.  I imagine this is for the sewer trunk line relocation:

Not nearly as exciting as a crane going up.

Yes, and it seems like it's been torn up like that for a lonnnggg time. Not as long as the AGP glass replacement...

[GRDadof3]

Somewhat of an update on the 201 Market site:

https://mibiz.com/sections/real-estate-development/brownfield-program-changes-to-make-transformative-tool-more-accessible

 

Would love to see something like the Flaherty & Collins project come back. 

 

[Hoeks]

I recently stayed in the Seaport neighborhood in Boston.   I've stayed there a few times over the years, and each time, I can't believe how much has changed since the last time I stayed there.  I know it is a different ball league (Boston vs GR), however it is truly impressive.  And, the tallest structure is 22 floors, and most are in the mid range of size.   The area is listed over 500 acres, but the bulk of the development is on 23 acres.   Made me think of the similarities of the 13 acre parcel discussed on this thread (and the Charlies Crab site adjacent).  If you haven't seen it, a link of the neighborhood is below:

"The Seaport is over 500 acres, but it is more densely developed - one 23 acre section contains 3.3 million square feet of development, comparable in ways to Battery Park City or Hudson Yards in Manhattan."

https://www.bostonseaport.xyz/

 

[Pattmost20]

Found this in an article from Detroit Free Press about Dan Gilbert's large scale redevelopment of downtown Detroit. It also mentioned the current plans for 201 Market later in the article. 

 

"Winning approval for the subsidies hasn't been easy for developers. One of the rejected Transformational Brownfield proposals was for a large mixed-use development on the Grand Rapids riverfront with a hotel, nearly 700 housing units, a grocery store and other commercial space. But state development officials quietly turned down the nearly $270 million plan during the pre-application process, saying it wouldn't be transformative enough, according to the developer and media reports. And without the transformational subsidies, the vision, known by its address 201 Market Ave., wasn't financially feasible. “I can’t remember the exact specifics, but the biggest thing was a jobs creation component — we weren’t creating enough jobs," Brian Prince, vice president of development for the developer, Indianapolis-based Flaherty & Collins Properties, said in a phone interview."

[cstonesparty]

15 hours ago, Pattmost20 said:

Found this in an article from Detroit Free Press about Dan Gilbert's large scale redevelopment of downtown Detroit. It also mentioned the current plans for 201 Market later in the article. 

 

"Winning approval for the subsidies hasn't been easy for developers. One of the rejected Transformational Brownfield proposals was for a large mixed-use development on the Grand Rapids riverfront with a hotel, nearly 700 housing units, a grocery store and other commercial space. But state development officials quietly turned down the nearly $270 million plan during the pre-application process, saying it wouldn't be transformative enough, according to the developer and media reports. And without the transformational subsidies, the vision, known by its address 201 Market Ave., wasn't financially feasible. “I can’t remember the exact specifics, but the biggest thing was a jobs creation component — we weren’t creating enough jobs," Brian Prince, vice president of development for the developer, Indianapolis-based Flaherty & Collins Properties, said in a phone interview."

this part was interesting:  The current plan calls for a 12,000-seat amphitheater on the site, with as many as 1,500 to 1,700 housing units spread over nearby land, according to Jeremiah Gracia, the city's economic development director.

[Pattmost20]

5 minutes ago, cstonesparty said:

this part was interesting:  The current plan calls for a 12,000-seat amphitheater on the site, with as many as 1,500 to 1,700 housing units spread over nearby land, according to Jeremiah Gracia, the city's economic development director.

Yeah I'm glad they are including plans for residential but not surprised. After what Flaherty and Collins had proposed, it would have seemed like a waste to not include something extra beyond just an amphitheater.

[GRDadof3]

4 hours ago, cstonesparty said:

this part was interesting:  The current plan calls for a 12,000-seat amphitheater on the site, with as many as 1,500 to 1,700 housing units spread over nearby land, according to Jeremiah Gracia, the city's economic development director.

I thought that already was part of the plan? 

[cstonesparty]

29 minutes ago, GRDadof3 said:

I thought that already was part of the plan? 

I don't think I've seen anyone this 'official' go on record with this kind of comment.  Nearby land.  1500-1700 housing units.  

[GRDadof3]

On 9/15/2022 at 5:37 PM, cstonesparty said:

I don't think I've seen anyone this 'official' go on record with this kind of comment.  Nearby land.  1500-1700 housing units.  

This article mentions 1200 - 1700 housing units. I just picked a random article from back in April of this year. 

https://mibiz.com/sections/real-estate-development/grand-rapids-linchpin-modeled-off-van-andel-arena-116-million-amphitheater-project-already-attracting-national-developers-attention

This one too:

https://grbj.com/news/real-estate/city-approves-land-purchase-for-116m-amphitheater-project/