Can Parramore become Orlando's version of Harlem

[spenser1058]

Good news! Orlando’s iconic Goff’s ice cream stand, which has been rebuilding from the latest bit of violence foisted on it, 

will reopen July 18. Let’s all head down to OBT to help then celebrate!

BEEFY King set on fire and then Goff’s - for heaven’s sake, is nothing in this town sacred anymore? Thankfully, no one was hurt and now both will be back:

https://www.scottjosephorlando.com/news/6100-newsy-nuggets-7-6-22

From Scott J
 

 

Edited July 6, 2022 by spenser1058

[jrs2]

Based on the title of this thread, I think Parramore needs more residential housing and more businesses...a lot more...but it won't be easy.  I think you would need an influx of blacks with money to build up a population that lives there because it is convenient to proximity to work.  Who's gonna do that?  When blacks get money, they move out of the ghetto.  Whites do too.  SO there has to be an incentive or something.  The soccer stadium is good.  The training center is good.  The health department is...BAD.  They need to move it past OBT way out.  It is literally like The Walking Dead so close to the soccer stadium off Central.  Ain't nobody want to live near there.  I know a couple of African Americans that live in that neighborhood; one of them refuses to go to the health department for free health services b/c he is freaked out about the neighborhood.  Drug deals, shootings, home invasions, drive by's, etc.  From his mouth to my ears to my keyboard to this thread. The other one sits at home with her loaded pistol waiting for The Purge to begin.  She's freaked out about that neighborhood as well.

That is tough to fix.  But if they built that 17 story tower next to Central & Terry near the Fed Cthse, that would be a great start.  And then fill in some of those other parcels nearby.  Thus far, the RR tracks are a barrier between CV and that school, and the area to the south,.   These remote and online classes are killing the whole purpose of UCF downtown.  It's really too bad.

[spenser1058]

19 minutes ago, jrs2 said:

Based on the title of this thread, I think Parramore needs more residential housing and more businesses...a lot more...but it won't be easy.  I think you would need an influx of blacks with money to build up a population that lives there because it is convenient to proximity to work.  Who's gonna do that?  When blacks get money, they move out of the ghetto.  Whites do too.  SO there has to be an incentive or something.  The soccer stadium is good.  The training center is good.  The health department is...BAD.  They need to move it past OBT way out.  It is literally like The Walking Dead so close to the soccer stadium off Central.  Ain't nobody want to live near there.  I know a couple of African Americans that live in that neighborhood; one of them refuses to go to the health department for free health services b/c he is freaked out about the neighborhood.  Drug deals, shootings, home invasions, drive by's, etc.  From his mouth to my ears to my keyboard to this thread. The other one sits at home with her loaded pistol waiting for The Purge to begin.  She's freaked out about that neighborhood as well.

That is tough to fix.  But if they built that 17 story tower next to Central & Terry near the Fed Cthse, that would be a great start.  And then fill in some of those other parcels nearby.  Thus far, the RR tracks are a barrier between CV and that school, and the area to the south,.   These remote and online classes are killing the whole purpose of UCF downtown.  It's really too bad.

Nope, to fix it, it has to be done organically. Block by block with folks, black or white, who develop skin in the game and you get “eyes on the street” to make sure the neighborhood works as it recovers.

All an absentee-owned tower gets you is the next Cabrini Green or an enclave that does nothing for the surrounding neighborhood. Supporting organic growth is what should have happened in the first place but the city took the easy way out and just handed it to the developers and declared “problem solved”. Result: 22 years later, we’re still talking about fixing Parramore. The definition of insanity is repeating the same errors continuously and expecting different results. The developers don’t care - they got their money.

Btw, plop a soccer stadium and a 60000-seat football stadium in the middle of Wadeview Park and see what happens. And that’s without a century  of zoning debacles in the ‘hood caused during Jim Crow.

As for the health center, it’s no worse than Orlando Health. It’s what’s around the Health Center that’s the problem.

[jrs2]

2 hours ago, spenser1058 said:

Nope, to fix it, it has to be done organically. Block by block with folks, black or white, who develop skin in the game and you get “eyes on the street” to make sure the neighborhood works as it recovers.

All an absentee-owned tower gets you is the next Cabrini Green or an enclave that does nothing for the surrounding neighborhood. Supporting organic growth is what should have happened in the first place but the city took the easy way out and just handed it to the developers and declared “problem solved”. Result: 22 years later, we’re still talking about fixing Parramore. The definition of insanity is repeating the same errors continuously and expecting different results. The developers don’t care - they got their money.

Btw, plop a soccer stadium and a 60000-seat football stadium in the middle of Wadeview Park and see what happens. And that’s without a century  of zoning debacles in the ‘hood caused during Jim Crow.

As for the health center, it’s no worse than Orlando Health. It’s what’s around the Health Center that’s the problem.

True, but St. George's used to have a soup kitchen.  when they were serving, there were at times hundreds of homeless out and around the back of it.  Who the hec wants to live around that?   Same thing with the health department; it's a magnet. get rid of the magnets to get rid of the metal filings.

Our insurance guy growing up was black and he told us that when he became more successful, he high tailed it out of the semi-hood and moved to the 'burbs.  You cannot have people with almost absolutely nothing in a neighborhood; that's when it becomes a ghetto, black or white.  That has to be fixed. 

The skin in the game deals with the concept of a shop owner, etc., opening up a business there.  Who's gonna be crazy enough to do that?  You won't even find black folk with money daring enough to do that. Bars on the windows...whether you're here, LA, Chicago, NYC, the ghetto is the ghetto.  To fix it, the people living there need to be working.  A lot of them are not.  You put someone to work, they are too busy to be getting mixed up with stuff...and they make money to pay bills and they have something to lose.  People with nothing have nothing to lose.  

[prahaboheme]

Have there been any recent examples of ethnic neighborhoods that have revitalized organically? I really can’t think of any.

Generally, it seems that inner city neighborhoods that have some architectural and cultural merit gentrify and then those who have lived there for generations can no longer afford it and are pushed out.

[spenser1058]

14 minutes ago, jrs2 said:

True, but St. George's used to have a soup kitchen.  when they were serving, there were at times hundreds of homeless out and around the back of it.  Who the hec wants to live around that?   Same thing with the health department; it's a magnet. get rid of the magnets to get rid of the metal filings.

Our insurance guy growing up was black and he told us that when he became more successful, he high tailed it out of the semi-hood and moved to the 'burbs.  You cannot have people with almost absolutely nothing in a neighborhood; that's when it becomes a ghetto, black or white.  That has to be fixed. 

The skin in the game deals with the concept of a shop owner, etc., opening up a business there.  Who's gonna be crazy enough to do that?  You won't even find black folk with money daring enough to do that. Bars on the windows...whether you're here, LA, Chicago, NYC, the ghetto is the ghetto.  To fix it, the people living there need to be working.  A lot of them are not.  You put someone to work, they are too busy to be getting mixed up with stuff...and they make money to pay bills and they have something to lose.  People with nothing have nothing to lose.  

You’re right, but it has to start somewhere. So far, we haven’t even tried. Because of bad decisions and active discrimination that took place over a century, Parramore’s the biggest challenge. But you know, a lot of people said the same things about Eola Heights, South Eola and what became Thornton Park in 1979. Btw, then it wasn’t blamed on black people - it was homosexuals and the Eola cruising district that was the problem and the druggies.

Isn’t it interesting that Orlando is the city that, since we fixed Eola, has ignored fixing up neighborhoods (yep, that could lead to gentrification but we’re a long way from that) while other cities around the country have done just that? It’s just Orlando once again showing what used to be its can-do spirit has atrophied in the face of poor leadership.

[spenser1058]

22 minutes ago, prahaboheme said:

Have there been any recent examples of ethnic neighborhoods that have revitalized organically? I really can’t think of any.

Generally, it seems that inner city neighborhoods that have some architectural and cultural merit gentrify and then those who have lived there for generations can no longer afford it and are pushed out.

It is harder and you work at it a block at a time. Start with neighborhoods like Concord Park and the neighborhoods  north of Lorna Dione Par that aren’t totally  distressed. As you demonstrate success is possible, it builds confidence as you move east into the hardest hit areas.

We saw the same thing in downtown Winter Garden (“those migrants and Mexicans!”) and now the city is working on its biggest challenge, East Winter Garden. It’s been rewarding to watch the planning process from the bottom up instead of the other way around (it was spurred on by OCPS wanting to close the vo-tech and make a bus maintenance area of it, which residents opposed. Technically, it’s in OC, not WG , but the city jumped in to help the neighborhood fight back. In the process, they gained street cred. Orlando would have just said, not our problem, not our job and passed any  work with OCPS to some developer.

Will you always be successful? No, but it ain’t working this way, either.

Edited July 6, 2022 by spenser1058

[jack]

17 hours ago, prahaboheme said:

Have there been any recent examples of ethnic neighborhoods that have revitalized organically? I really can’t think of any.

Generally, it seems that inner city neighborhoods that have some architectural and cultural merit gentrify and then those who have lived there for generations can no longer afford it and are pushed out.

Not very many. The ones that have did it for the reasons you described. Good housing stock is bought/rented by younger people pushed out of other neighborhoods. That is organic as you can get.

Statistically, most gentrification is done in working class white neighborhoods that become upper income majority white neighborhoods. 

Ultimately, the biggest driver is a reduction in crime. When people feel safer, they will start to invest. 

17 hours ago, jrs2 said:

True, but St. George's used to have a soup kitchen.  when they were serving, there were at times hundreds of homeless out and around the back of it.  Who the hec wants to live around that?   Same thing with the health department; it's a magnet. get rid of the magnets to get rid of the metal filings.

Our insurance guy growing up was black and he told us that when he became more successful, he high tailed it out of the semi-hood and moved to the 'burbs.  You cannot have people with almost absolutely nothing in a neighborhood; that's when it becomes a ghetto, black or white.  That has to be fixed. 

The skin in the game deals with the concept of a shop owner, etc., opening up a business there.  Who's gonna be crazy enough to do that?  You won't even find black folk with money daring enough to do that. Bars on the windows...whether you're here, LA, Chicago, NYC, the ghetto is the ghetto.  To fix it, the people living there need to be working.  A lot of them are not.  You put someone to work, they are too busy to be getting mixed up with stuff...and they make money to pay bills and they have something to lose.  People with nothing have nothing to lose.  

You have to deal with crime first. Real and perceived. No one wants to be around homeless people walking around all day, even if they are not causing trouble. Its why people on LA and San Francisco are freaking out and tossing elected officials out. All of the social services in the community are a net negative, including the health department. 

[spenser1058]

I’m really sad to see how this is unfolding. Checker Park seemed so…so…urban compared to the buttoned-down way we tend to do things around here.

https://bungalower.com/2022/07/07/ask-bungalower-what-happened-to-checker-park/

From Bungalower 

Btw, check out the comment about how worthless and downright dangerous palm trees can be. Those who fail to remember the past… 
 

[jrs2]

2 hours ago, jack said:

Not very many. The ones that have did it for the reasons you described. Good housing stock is bought/rented by younger people pushed out of other neighborhoods. That is organic as you can get.

Statistically, most gentrification is done in working class white neighborhoods that become upper income majority white neighborhoods. 

Ultimately, the biggest driver is a reduction in crime. When people feel safer, they will start to invest. 

You have to deal with crime first. Real and perceived. No one wants to be around homeless people walking around all day, even if they are not causing trouble. Its why people on LA and San Francisco are freaking out and tossing elected officials out. All of the social services in the community are a net negative, including the health department. 

I totally agree, which is why I think they should move the health department out of there.  Because now, OBT is a border of that quadrant and the health department is a magnet.  There is an outreach center on Terry just north of Central too.  They need more housing options for the disabled.  The homeless have to make a few bucks per day to be able to sleep in  some of those shelters.  The shelters help them with certain services but are geared to get them back on their feet (the ones that can).  There are work programs to give them day jobs.  But I'll tell you, there are a lot of people that will not do certain jobs that many immigrants are willing to do.  It's a fact.  There are actually people grateful for the opportunity to live and work in the US even though City Hall disagrees.  The locals seem to take it for granted, but immigrants don't.  That is a problem.  Ah if people here only knew the opinions of actual immigrants who are new here and have been here for decades on what they think about locals who beotch and moan...  In the end it goes back to jobs.

[spenser1058]

Please tell that to all the black neighborhoods in DC that got upended over the last couple of decades. It is rarely white folks complaining about gentrification. Right here at home, look at the success that Winter Park (Winter Park!) has had west of Park. although there’s still much to do.

The interesting part in Parramore is we’ll never know because, from day one, Buddy’s solution was big projects. And, gosh, it’s worked so well that Parramore’s a model for the country, right?

Buddy told us twenty years ago he should be judged by his success in Parramore, Think another twenty will do it doing the same thing? When did Orlando become afraid to try something different? Thank goodness Winter Garden’s not like that. It’s ridiculous when the small towns are more progressive (small “p”) than the large city.

Edited July 7, 2022 by spenser1058

[jrs2]

20 minutes ago, spenser1058 said:

Please tell that to all the black neighborhoods in DC that got upended over the last couple of decades. It is rarely white folks complaining about gentrification. Right here at home, look at the success that Winter Park (Winter Park!) has had west of Park. although there’s still much to do.

The interesting part in Parramore is we’ll never know because, from day one, Buddy’s solution was big projects. And, gosh, it’s worked so well that Parramore’s a model for the country, right?

Buddy told us twenty years ago he should be judged by his success in Parramore, Think another twenty will do it doing the same thing? When did Orlando become afraid to try something different? Thank goodness Winter Garden’s not like that. It’s ridiculous when the small towns are more progressive (small “p”) than the large city.

I don't know the answer.  I get Buddy's philosophy, but cutting off Parramore with a stadium to get back at the church that refused to go from being a landowner to a tenant elsewhere, i.e., cutting off your nose to spite your face, seemed counterintuitive.  However, looking at the map, it now looks like the soccer stadium was a physical and mental barrier to separate the most "hood" portions of the district from the Creative Village quadrant a few more blocks up.  There are ghetto elements north of the stadium, to be sure, but it seems like between the RR tracks as a barrier, Parramore and Westmoreland and Livingston to the west are like the only ways into the CV quadrant.  I didn't notice it before.  Maybe they are planning a large influx of new developments in and around CV like the did west of Park Ave in WP.

[Urbo]

On 7/6/2022 at 7:11 PM, prahaboheme said:

Have there been any recent examples of ethnic neighborhoods that have revitalized organically? I really can’t think of any.

Generally, it seems that inner city neighborhoods that have some architectural and cultural merit gentrify and then those who have lived there for generations can no longer afford it and are pushed out.

The only somewhat example that comes to mind is the beginning stages of West Midtown Atlanta starting in the 90s with the adaptive reuse and expansion of the King Plow center and further expansion of Terminal west in the 2000s. From 1990 to to late 2000s West Midtown made an handful of adaptive reuse projects that slowly started to shift the mainly rundown industrial area. Cartel Properties and the Martin family began purchasing property and converting small industrial warehouses and automotive shops into restaurants, coffee shops, boutique office, etc. By 2008/2009 the area starting gaining momentum and the development of White provision/Westside provision district revamped the historic meat packing plant into a new mixed use destination. By 2016 it gained the attention of large institutional investors and now the neighborhoods is on pace to have developed 4,000 residential units, and has seen office rent growth of over 400% in the past decade, attracting the likes of Nike, WeWork, Ford, I Heart Media, etc. Its been over a 30 year process but I said somewhat example in the beginning as this was largely an industrial neighborhood with surrounding residential communities. 

I agree with you on your point. Generally it takes some large development of meaning that draws regional interest for people to bypass the many cons of an under-utilized neighborhood. Prime examples are the Old Fourth Ward in Atlanta where Ponce City Market and the Eastside Beltline Trail spurred what seemed like an overnight gentrification in the neighborhood. Wynwood, Midtown, and Design district in Miami similarly had quick and drastic impact of surrounding residential neighborhoods via large redevelopment projects. It just take developers with creative and desirable plans that focuses on creating regional mixed use destinations to turn neighborhoods like Parramore around quicker. It will eventually gentrify but its needs something different than a satellite campus and a subpar office building for EA to accelerate the development pace.

[jack]

On 7/7/2022 at 4:13 PM, spenser1058 said:

Please tell that to all the black neighborhoods in DC that got upended over the last couple of decades. It is rarely white folks complaining about gentrification. Right here at home, look at the success that Winter Park (Winter Park!) has had west of Park. although there’s still much to do.

The interesting part in Parramore is we’ll never know because, from day one, Buddy’s solution was big projects. And, gosh, it’s worked so well that Parramore’s a model for the country, right?

Buddy told us twenty years ago he should be judged by his success in Parramore, Think another twenty will do it doing the same thing? When did Orlando become afraid to try something different? Thank goodness Winter Garden’s not like that. It’s ridiculous when the small towns are more progressive (small “p”) than the large city.

DC and a couple of neighborhoods in NYC dominate the the debate but they are a minority (literally!) of neighborhoods that go from black to white. There have been only a couple of studies done but white to white are the vast vast majority of gentrification examples. Think here in Orlando. Wadeview Park, the mIlk district, etc. White to white. 

[spenser1058]

Orlando to allow Parramore homeless shelters to update facilities, expand footprint
https://www.orlandosentinel.com/news/orange-county/os-ne-orlando-votes-for-parramore-homeless-agencies-update-20220719-knje5vx3g5ab5jpwhkfxi5m7ci-story.html

From The Sentinel 

This is a good compromise that allows existing facilities to upgrade for the first time since the ‘70’s or ‘80’s, without allowing further expansion by additional agencies.

I think Buddy and the council got this one right. Particularly important is a day services center at CSC, which will allow unhoused folks to shower and use facilities for job training and to look for jobs, as well as access to mental health and other services. We’re currently the largest city in the country that doesn’t currently have that.
 

[jrs2]

On 7/7/2022 at 4:13 PM, spenser1058 said:

Please tell that to all the black neighborhoods in DC that got upended over the last couple of decades. It is rarely white folks complaining about gentrification. Right here at home, look at the success that Winter Park (Winter Park!) has had west of Park. although there’s still much to do.

The interesting part in Parramore is we’ll never know because, from day one, Buddy’s solution was big projects. And, gosh, it’s worked so well that Parramore’s a model for the country, right?

Buddy told us twenty years ago he should be judged by his success in Parramore, Think another twenty will do it doing the same thing? When did Orlando become afraid to try something different? Thank goodness Winter Garden’s not like that. It’s ridiculous when the small towns are more progressive (small “p”) than the large city.

small "p"...LOL

3 hours ago, spenser1058 said:

Orlando to allow Parramore homeless shelters to update facilities, expand footprint
https://www.orlandosentinel.com/news/orange-county/os-ne-orlando-votes-for-parramore-homeless-agencies-update-20220719-knje5vx3g5ab5jpwhkfxi5m7ci-story.html

From The Sentinel 

This is a good compromise that allows existing facilities to upgrade for the first time since the ‘70’s or ‘80’s, without allowing further expansion by additional agencies.

I think Buddy and the council got this one right. Particularly important is a day services center at CSC, which will allow unhoused folks to shower and use facilities for job training and to look for jobs, as well as access to mental health and other services. We’re currently the largest city in the country that doesn’t currently have that.
 

I know this sounds bad, but the ghetto will never get better with real investment if homeless shelters and the health department are still located there.

[Uncommon]

2 hours ago, jrs2 said:

small "p"...LOL

I know this sounds bad, but the ghetto will never get better with real investment if homeless shelters and the health department are still located there.

I wish Orlando would do what St. Pete did and relocate the homeless shelters away from the city core. Sorry for sounding insensitive but it's an embarrassment to have a lot of homeless downtown.

[spenser1058]

There are free clinics (subject to federal poverty guidelines) all around town. OIC on Mills Ave., for example, is one. I guess Mills/50 will always be a ghetto, right? 

[Uncommon]

Unrelated, but who do I contact to add an eye roll emoji to this site?

[jack]

13 hours ago, Uncommon said:

I wish Orlando would do what St. Pete did and relocate the homeless shelters away from the city core. Sorry for sounding insensitive but it's an embarrassment to have a lot of homeless downtown.

That is fascinating. I did not know that. 

The idea to concentrate them in Parramore was that many homeless people were already there and the church's were all providing services already. Unfortunately, that was a bad idea. Its like when we thought it was a good idea to house the poor in urban towers in the same parts of town. 

[jrs2]

21 hours ago, spenser1058 said:

There are free clinics (subject to federal poverty guidelines) all around town. OIC on Mills Ave., for example, is one. I guess Mills/50 will always be a ghetto, right? 

what is OIC?  that would be good to know. thx.

21 hours ago, spenser1058 said:

There are free clinics (subject to federal poverty guidelines) all around town. OIC on Mills Ave., for example, is one. I guess Mills/50 will always be a ghetto, right? 

if Parramore had a Frenchman Street vibe to it, then that could be a direction to go in.

8 hours ago, jack said:

That is fascinating. I did not know that. 

The idea to concentrate them in Parramore was that many homeless people were already there and the church's were all providing services already. Unfortunately, that was a bad idea. Its like when we thought it was a good idea to house the poor in urban towers in the same parts of town. 

OBT has those rent by the week motels there...dunno.  put shelters there, and they go up and down the sidewalks and panhandle b/c they need $$$.

[jrs2]

21 hours ago, Uncommon said:

I wish Orlando would do what St. Pete did and relocate the homeless shelters away from the city core. Sorry for sounding insensitive but it's an embarrassment to have a lot of homeless downtown.

it has to get done or downtown.  and it has to get done for Parramore.  

[spenser1058]

Sound familiar?

”In Central Florida, Winter Garden all but wrote the book on CRAs, setting one up in 1992, when much of the desolate core of the city had the nickname of Winter Garbage. Today, the city’s downtown, with its share of the West Orange Trail and array of small-town charms, is often cited for showing what it takes to envision and utilize a CRA successfully.”

From The Sentinel

What changes a neighborhood is the will for it to change, not lining the pockets of developers and land speculators as has happened all too recently in Parramore.

Meanwhile, Winter Garden is actively fighting the same old antiquated Jim Crow attitudes in East Winter Garden. First, it was fighting a bus maintenance facility on the site of an old school and now it’s a plastics recycling plant. 

https://www.orlandosentinel.com/news/environment/os-ne-winter-garden-plastics-recycling-20220721-ua6z3jpfsngy7bvdgn62q436em-story.html

God, I’m pleased to live in a town that fights for people instead of developers.
 

[jack]

3 hours ago, spenser1058 said:

Sound familiar?

”In Central Florida, Winter Garden all but wrote the book on CRAs, setting one up in 1992, when much of the desolate core of the city had the nickname of Winter Garbage. Today, the city’s downtown, with its share of the West Orange Trail and array of small-town charms, is often cited for showing what it takes to envision and utilize a CRA successfully.”

From The Sentinel

What changes a neighborhood is the will for it to change, not lining the pockets of developers and land speculators as has happened all too recently in Parramore.

Meanwhile, Winter Garden is actively fighting the same old antiquated Jim Crow attitudes in East Winter Garden. First, it was fighting a bus maintenance facility on the site of an old school and now it’s a plastics recycling plant. 

https://www.orlandosentinel.com/news/environment/os-ne-winter-garden-plastics-recycling-20220721-ua6z3jpfsngy7bvdgn62q436em-story.html

God, I’m pleased to live in a town that fights for people instead of developers.
 

I believe that was Orlando back in the 70's that wrote the book on CRA's. 

Please describe developers lining their pockets in Parramore. Nothing has been built outside of public buildings except City View and Creative Village (not in Parramore if you ask me) 

[jrs2]

see MLS Soccer Stadium thread on the sale of the church to the Soccer Team for $3.5M