Woodland Mall to get $100 Million makeover

[jthrasher]

44 minutes ago, GRLaker said:

I'm glad someone agrees with me on the de-malling/main street concept for Rivertown. Any mention of it seems to generate no discussion. Rivertown has a serious problem on its hands. It needs to be innovative or else it will fizzle out and it will take Grandville with it as 1/4 of the city sits as vacant retail wasteland.

I could see IKEA working at Rivertown only if they took Younkers, Sears, and the whole eastern quarter of the mall. IKEAs are notoriously big. The whole store is a giant warehouse with a maze running through it. I think the only way Rivertown could give them the amount of space they need is if they gave them that whole section of the mall and filled in the space in the southeast parking lot. That whole portion of the mall is essentially dead space anyway. The only anchor left is Sears, Younkers left, Hollister moved...Campus Den and Champs Sports are about the only stores that generate any foot traffic anymore. They could easily move to the west end and take the place of the two oriental import stores. 

Other anchor options would be Crate and Barrel and the Container Store. That would fill only one anchor void though (Sears will eventually leave) and it would only be a bandaid on the overall issue of the current setup being a dying breed of mall. The long-term fix would be to de-mall, make the center portion into a road with parking, expand the stores out to compensate for the space taken by parking, make the second story into condo or high-end apartment units, and maybe build a condo/high-end apartment complex adjacent to it. Make it into a small town full of retail, housing, restaurants/bars, etc. It would have a lot of up-front cost, but it could pay off in the long term as opposed to serving as a financial liability as it rots away.

Rivertown definitely needs to figure out a solution fast.   I love the idea of a main street concept.  Especially with condos or apartments above it.    IKEA would be great for that area but typically IKEA likes to make their stores  stand alone and not part of a mall.  Are there any that are part of malls?   

[GRLaker]

6 minutes ago, jthrasher said:

Rivertown definitely needs to figure out a solution fast.   I love the idea of a main street concept.  Especially with condos or apartments above it.    IKEA would be great for that area but typically IKEA likes to make their stores  stand alone and not part of a mall.  Are there any that are part of malls?   

It looks like IKEA does own an IKEA anchored mall concept that they have used around the world and are apparently starting up in the US. But it's a mall of their own creation that is anchored by them and contains high-end retail stores. It doesn't look like they connect themselves to any existing malls. I would think it would be difficult considering they likely field a lot of semi-truck traffic.

[MJLO]

I have said it before , I'll say it now.  I will eat my shoes if IKEA opens a store in West Michigan before the GR MSA hits 1.5 million.   The smallest market I can find an IKEA in is Jacksonville, and there are several markets bigger than that without one.   That said IKEA does have a smaller concept for smaller markets that would work at a Rivertown anchor with a bit of a build out.  The reason you will never see an IKEA at Rivertown is because it's too far off the freeway.  Their business model has always been to position their stores immediately off of a freeway for maximum  visibility.  If they were to put one in GR they would do it with easy access for people in Kalamazoo as well as Lansing.    That would put a potential GR location near 28th/I-96 in cascade, or even more likely a yet to emerge retail corridor around the M-6/Broadmoor interchange out by Caledonia.  

I do think calling for the demise of Rivertown is premature.   Rivertown is overbuilt, it is still a destination super-regional center, but it will never be the high end mall for the area.   It's simply not close enough to the higher end demographics.   I am very doubtful they can land  a Crate and Barrel/ Container store type retailer.   Higher end brands cluster near each other so if they enter this market, they will like look for space near 28th/EBL, or Knapps Corner.  Rivertown needs to be reconfigured to support 3(maybe even 2) anchors.  It simply does not need 1.4 million sf of floor space.  If it gets downsized and  the property goes a more mixed use route it will be fine. 

[GRDadof3]

3 hours ago, GRLaker said:

I'm glad someone agrees with me on the de-malling/main street concept for Rivertown. Any mention of it seems to generate no discussion. Rivertown has a serious problem on its hands. It needs to be innovative or else it will fizzle out and it will take Grandville with it as 1/4 of the city sits as vacant retail wasteland.

I could see IKEA working at Rivertown only if they took Younkers, Sears, and the whole eastern quarter of the mall. IKEAs are notoriously big. The whole store is a giant warehouse with a maze running through it. I think the only way Rivertown could give them the amount of space they need is if they gave them that whole section of the mall and filled in the space in the southeast parking lot. That whole portion of the mall is essentially dead space anyway. The only anchor left is Sears, Younkers left, Hollister moved...Campus Den and Champs Sports are about the only stores that generate any foot traffic anymore. They could easily move to the west end and take the place of the two oriental import stores. 

Other anchor options would be Crate and Barrel and the Container Store. That would fill only one anchor void though (Sears will eventually leave) and it would only be a bandaid on the overall issue of the current setup being a dying breed of mall. The long-term fix would be to de-mall, make the center portion into a road with parking, expand the stores out to compensate for the space taken by parking, make the second story into condo or high-end apartment units, and maybe build a condo/high-end apartment complex adjacent to it. Make it into a small town full of retail, housing, restaurants/bars, etc. It would have a lot of up-front cost, but it could pay off in the long term as opposed to serving as a financial liability as it rots away.

I don't think the "concourse" of Rivertown is wide enough to put a street down, especially if you had parking on both sides. They'd have to tear the front half off and leave the back half, maybe. 

[RegalTDP]

15 hours ago, Pattmost20 said:

I would say above average for a chain. It is still suburban mall food. I think of it more as a sign that higher end stores are willing to give West Michigan a try,

^^^This.  These guys only set up shop in areas with really high foot traffic.  And though it's been about 20 years since Cheesecake Factory was actually trendy, they never set foot in Michigan until 2013.  I don't know what their aversion to our state was before then, but not bad for GR now that they're finally in MI.

12 minutes ago, MJLO said:

I have said it before , I'll say it now.  I will eat my shoes if IKEA opens a store in West Michigan before the GR MSA hits 1.5 million.   The smallest market I can find an IKEA in is Jacksonville, and there are several markets bigger than that without one.   That said IKEA does have a smaller concept for smaller markets that would work at a Rivertown anchor with a bit of a build out.  The reason you will never see an IKEA at Rivertown is because it's too far off the freeway.  Their business model has always been to position their stores immediately off of a freeway for maximum  visibility.  If they were to put one in GR they would do it with easy access for people in Kalamazoo as well as Lansing.    That would put a potential GR location near 28th/I-96 in cascade, or even more likely a yet to emerge retail corridor around the M-6/Broadmoor interchange out by Caledonia.  

I do think calling for the demise of Rivertown is premature.   Rivertown is overbuilt, it is still a destination super-regional center, but it will never be the high end mall for the area.   It's simply not close enough to the higher end demographics.   I am very doubtful they can land  a Crate and Barrel/ Container store type retailer.   Higher end brands cluster near each other so if they enter this market, they will like look for space near 28th/EBL, or Knapps Corner.  Rivertown needs to be reconfigured to support 3(maybe even 2) anchors.  It simply does not need 1.4 million sf of floor space.  If it gets downsized and  the property goes a more mixed use route it will be fine. 

^^^This.  IKEA doesn't necessarily need to be in a retail corridor, but they do need a big metro area and space.  If I were IKEA and I were building one in West MI, I'd probably go out by Lowell.

[GRLaker]

20 minutes ago, GRDadof3 said:

I don't think the "concourse" of Rivertown is wide enough to put a street down, especially if you had parking on both sides. They'd have to tear the front half off and leave the back half, maybe. 

Yeah, they definitely don't have the ability to do a two way street as well as parking. Maybe one way with diagonal parking, but then they likely wouldn't have any space for a sidewalk. My original thought was they could cut into the store fronts and expand behind to make up for the lost retail space, but then the upper housing units would have an overhang issue. The more I think about having a road down the center, the more I think it would need to just be a sidewalk. It would essentially be like the Tanger Outlet, which isn't very Main Street-y. 

[GRDadof3]

I feel like it's really sad that Woodland Mall is becoming the trendy retail center of West Michigan, but then again, it's a good reuse of property that's already built up. Imagine if both of those lifestyle centers had gone in. Woodland would be like much of the city-suburban Detroit malls: abandoned.

[EastCoaster93]

https://www.thecheesecakefactory.com/about-us/

Funny thing  about the The Cheescake Factory is that the owners are from Detroit and that’s where they got their start. They eventually moved to LA and that’s where the chain started to develop. 

Although I’m not a fan of The Cheesecake Factory (I prefer restaurants that have a niche and stick with that), this is the type of restaurant that tends to thrive in the GR Market.  I’m surprised they didn’t bring it here sooner

[MJLO]

23 minutes ago, GRDadof3 said:

I feel like it's really sad that Woodland Mall is becoming the trendy retail center of West Michigan, but then again, it's a good reuse of property that's already built up. Imagine if both of those lifestyle centers had gone in. Woodland would be like much of the city-suburban Detroit malls: abandoned.

IMHO it’s hard to say,  the retail around the Knapp’s area is finicky in general.   There’s a reason so many of the plans out there have stalled.  It appeared for a while the upper echelon brands were going to shift that direction and then they didn’t.  Instead what we are seeing is more of the same stuff we already have going in out there.  For some reason it just can’t seem to gain the traction it needs to emerge as a fully functioning retail corridor.  

The biggest thing Woodland has going for it is the amount of investment that’s been poured into it over the last 20 years.  Conversely Rivertown has had almost no investment to keep it fresh and it’s clearly declining because of it.  If GGP hadn’t sat on it for 10 years after their bankruptcy who know the conversation we’d be having now.

[GRDadof3]

1 hour ago, MJLO said:

IMHO it’s hard to say,  the retail around the Knapp’s area is finicky in general.   There’s a reason so many of the plans out there have stalled.  It appeared for a while the upper echelon brands were going to shift that direction and then they didn’t.  Instead what we are seeing is more of the same stuff we already have going in out there.  For some reason it just can’t seem to gain the traction it needs to emerge as a fully functioning retail corridor.  

The biggest thing Woodland has going for it is the amount of investment that’s been poured into it over the last 20 years.  Conversely Rivertown has had almost no investment to keep it fresh and it’s clearly declining because of it.  If GGP hadn’t sat on it for 10 years after their bankruptcy who know the conversation we’d be having now.

I think if you go to slightly larger markets than ours, the inner ring suburban malls have all but died and been replaced by the exurban high-end lifestyle centers. Woodland is probably a real head scratcher even for industry experts. 

[Prankster]

1 hour ago, EastCoaster93 said:

https://www.thecheesecakefactory.com/about-us/

Funny thing  about the The Cheescake Factory is that the owners are from Detroit and that’s where they got their start. They eventually moved to LA and that’s where the chain started to develop. 

Although I’m not a fan of The Cheesecake Factory (I prefer restaurants that have a niche and stick with that), this is the type of restaurant that tends to thrive in the GR Market.  I’m surprised they didn’t bring it here sooner

They were not well received  with their original shop in Detroit, so they moved out to California and became a success. They never seemed to forgive Detroit for the poor reception to their shop

[MJLO]

23 minutes ago, GRDadof3 said:

I think if you go to slightly larger markets than ours, the inner ring suburban malls have all but died and been replaced by the exurban high-end lifestyle centers. Woodland is probably a real head scratcher even for industry experts. 

Do you think that has something to do with the development patterns of GR?  In most cities new suburban growth rings create new retail corridors, and people’s shopping habits shift to the shiny and new.  GR is unique in that  even with the growth we have, there hasn’t been any new retail corridors emerging.  The last ones to emerge really were Rivertown and Knapp’s Corner in the late 90s.   There’s never really been an alternative  that could replace 28th and the EBL, and instead of it declining the area around it has simply been reinvested in and replaced.  It’s really a 10-15 year old retail corridor on the bones of a 50 year old one.

[organsnyder]

2 minutes ago, MJLO said:

Do you think that has something to do with the development patterns of GR?  In most cities new suburban growth rings create new retail corridors, and people’s shopping habits shift to the shiny and new.  GR is unique in that  even with the growth we have, there hasn’t been any new retail corridors emerging.  The last ones to emerge really were Rivertown and Knapp’s Corner in the late 90s.   There’s never really been an alternative  that could replace 28th and the EBL, and instead of it declining the area around it has simply been reinvested in and replaced.  It’s really a 10-15 year old retail corridor on the bones of a 50 year old one.

What about M-6 and Kalamazoo Ave?

[Pattmost20]

14 minutes ago, organsnyder said:

What about M-6 and Kalamazoo Ave?

To a lesser extent M-6 and Byron Center as well.

[MJLO]

16 minutes ago, organsnyder said:

What about M-6 and Kalamazoo Ave?

 

2 minutes ago, Pattmost20 said:

To a lesser extent M-6 and Byron Center as well.

They all emerged at about the same time,  late 90s/early 2000s.   They are more local draws, neither of them really have a big enough pull to challenge the three epicenters of GR retail:   28th and the EBL, Rivertown, and Alpine.

[RegalTDP]

2 minutes ago, MJLO said:

 

They all emerged at about the same time,  late 90s/early 2000s.   They are more local draws, neither of them really have a big enough pull to challenge the three epicenters of GR retail:   28th and the EBL, Rivertown, and Alpine.

Well, I think what we're all pointing out is the effect of transportation routes on keeping suburban retail viable. M-6 really did create development for corridors in Byron and Gaines Township, and decimated the strip malls that used to dot 44th and 52nd.  Meanwhile, I would argue that a new epicenter could be emerging on 84th / 131 with the Outlets being the catalyst.

While the area's development has changed transportation routes in the southern metro, it hasn't changed for 28th/EBL, which if anything has been strengthened.

[GRLaker]

18 minutes ago, RegalTDP said:

Well, I think what we're all pointing out is the effect of transportation routes on keeping suburban retail viable. M-6 really did create development for corridors in Byron and Gaines Township, and decimated the strip malls that used to dot 44th and 52nd.  Meanwhile, I would argue that a new epicenter could be emerging on 84th / 131 with the Outlets being the catalyst.

While the area's development has changed transportation routes in the southern metro, it hasn't changed for 28th/EBL, which if anything has been strengthened.

Last time I was out at the Tanger Outlet, I saw quite a bit of land cleared out along 84th with large sale signs posted. I am curious to see what starts to fill in along there.

[MJLO]

18 minutes ago, RegalTDP said:

Well, I think what we're all pointing out is the effect of transportation routes on keeping suburban retail viable. M-6 really did create development for corridors in Byron and Gaines Township, and decimated the strip malls that used to dot 44th and 52nd.  Meanwhile, I would argue that a new epicenter could be emerging on 84th / 131 with the Outlets being the catalyst.

While the area's development has changed transportation routes in the southern metro, it hasn't changed for 28th/EBL, which if anything has been strengthened.

I understand I was never familiar with the retail parts of 52nd st.  I always thought they were more the local types of shops/shopping.  Where if you needed to get clothing you’d still have gone to the malls.  I know since M-6 went in they’ve declined, were they ever really regional draws though?  

The rise of Alpine lead to the decline of Plainfield.  The rise of Rivertown and M6 was the nail in the coffin for 28th St in Wyoming.  Through all of that 28th and the EBL has remained one of the strongest regional draws in outstate Michigan.  Knapp’s is too close to it to really gain more traction than what it is currently.  

If 84th in Byron center emerges as the next retail area it would accelerate the decline of Rivertown, not Woodland.  That’s ironic to me since Rivertown is the youngest of the regional centers.

[GRDadof3]

1 hour ago, MJLO said:

I understand I was never familiar with the retail parts of 52nd st.  I always thought they were more the local types of shops/shopping.  Where if you needed to get clothing you’d still have gone to the malls.  I know since M-6 went in they’ve declined, were they ever really regional draws though?  

The rise of Alpine lead to the decline of Plainfield.  The rise of Rivertown and M6 was the nail in the coffin for 28th St in Wyoming.  Through all of that 28th and the EBL has remained one of the strongest regional draws in outstate Michigan.  Knapp’s is too close to it to really gain more traction than what it is currently.  

If 84th in Byron center emerges as the next retail area it would accelerate the decline of Rivertown, not Woodland.  That’s ironic to me since Rivertown is the youngest of the regional centers.

One thing for certain, you're hard pressed to find a retail corridor in the area that is struggling (S Division notwithstanding). It doesn't seem like very long ago that big stretches of 28th Street in Wyoming, Plainfield, 44th, etc.. were all flailing. Now I was even surprised to drive by Rogers Plaza area and retail all looked to be near 100% occupied, with a lot of new construction going on. There's a big strip mall near 44th and Breton that had nearly emptied out not that long ago but now is filling up again. 

[joeDowntown]

4 hours ago, MJLO said:

 Knapp’s is too close to it to really gain more traction than what it is currently.  

True. Although Breton Village has done a heck of a job drawing retail tenants. They just announced Boyne Country Sports, which interestingly, was one of the first retailers proposed for Knapp Crossing. Then it switched to REI. In the end, Woodland got REI and Breton village got Boyne Country Sports.

Joe

[Allison Slater]

I think there's several different factors all contributing to Woodland's success.

For one, as pointed out, there hasn't really been a new retail corridor that replaced E 28th, and there could be a couple reasons for that which will be touched on below.
Secondly, the failure of Eastbrook / Centerpointe and its subsequent de-malling likely helped to take pressure off of Woodland, allowing it to bounce back a little, while the construction of  Bucktown Shopping Center across the road from Rivertown likely added pressure to Rivertown.
Then there was the investment into Woodland while Rivertown sat neglected.
And on top of that, for a city our size, Downtown has an extremely lacking retail scene. It's probably that potential retail market that would otherwise be shopping Downtown which contributed to keeping the 28th St. corridor alive, with Downtown and EGR residents continuing to rely on 28th. In other cities, the inner-ring retail centers are likely struggling due to having to compete with Downtown retail. This might be why potential corridors along M6 failed to really overcome 28th.
And lastly, there's not really been a new corridor to take the business of Ada area residents away from 28th.

That said, as much as I love to hate on Rivertown, I think some of y'all are being too pessimistic about it. Yes, it is in a troubled spot -- for a future outlook. But as it is right now, it's still a highly trafficked and busy mall, and there's plenty of people in the city who still frequent it while never going to Woodland. (Encountered someone yesterday who completely forgot Woodland even existed.) In a lot of people's minds who get stuck into routine, especially on the SW side who don't venture to the other side of the city often, the idea from the early 2000s and 90s of Rivertown being "the nice mall" persists. So no, I don't think it needs to start thinking about "de-malling." They may struggle, but their situation isn't that dire. Plus I question how much anchors really play a role in the minds of most younger shoppers. I've gone to the mall plenty of times, but only very rarely did I ever go for an anchor (Celebration excluded.) I went for the smaller stores. Those are the draw. I'm not sure malls really need traditional anchors -that- badly.

[GRDadof3]

REI fans, they have their Grand Opening set now for May 17th - 19th.

https://www.rei.com/stores/grand-rapids.html