Learning from Other Places

[KJHburg]

Best of downtown Raleigh awards and I have seen many of these projects.   Worth seeing what is going on in NC's 2nd city.

https://downtownraleigh.org/post/2020-state-of-downtown-imprint-award-winners

[KJHburg]

Here is a great idea from Raleigh up the road for their  Downtown restaurant week.  Look what they are doing on Fayetteville Street downtown.  Specifically helping downtown restaurants and they have a corporate sponsor in Red Hat.  Why can't this be done in uptown Charlotte as our restaurants up are the most in danger of closing due to lack of office workers and hotel guests?

Close down Tryon and a few blocks of Trade in either direction and do this.   where is the Charlotte center city partners or whatever they call themselves?   Those restaurants NEED help now. 

https://downtownraleigh.org/restaurant-week

 

[elrodvt]

Did I just read you propose closing Tryon for a while? Shocking! ;-)

I love it. But, I can't see our city leaders being able to think so outside of their box (or parking garage).

[KJHburg]

52 minutes ago, elrodvt said:

Did I just read you propose closing Tryon for a while? Shocking! ;-)

I love it. But, I can't see our city leaders being able to think so outside of their box (or parking garage).

Yes temporarily to help these restaurants out uptown yes some of them are not going to survive and the city seems not to care.  and yes even monthly would be good but really only works in warmer months. 

[elrodvt]

I strongly disagree. Close it all the time. Otherwise, unless you're really tuned in, you won't even know when it's available. Also temporary restricts the options. Who's going to invest in a cool kiosk they can only use once in a while? This works great in Denver all months - the weather's just an excuse. Have to break the mold here. Try something different and make it a destination. Right now unless you work dt there's really no reason to go there.  Too much in the box thinking here...

[CLT2014]

I know Tryon is our "flagship" street for bank lobby's and impressive skyscrapers, but realistically over a 12 block stretch you have a very small amount of restaurants that are actually up against Tryon Street that could leverage it for outdoor dining efficiently. They'd be very spread out too and largely chains, unlike the cool community vibe you see in other cities where the restaurants are nestled together that encourages people to come check out the fun action. I suspect it would feel like you are just eating in the road since our restaurants are so spread out. Also, several of these chains cater mainly to business clientele. Adding outdoor dining isn't going to make locals super excited to eat at Ruth Chris or McCormick and Schmick when there are so many great local options elsewhere in town. "Hey, let's drive Uptown and pass all these local places to go eat at Ruth Chris in the road" isn't a conversation people have. 

Hill Street to MLK (3 blocks):

• Bernardin's on the Green

MLK to 3rd (1 block):

• La Belle Helene

3rd to Trade (2 blocks):

• McCormick & Schmick's
• Chima
• Bella Ciao
• Eddie V's
• Tupelo
• Ruth Chris

Trade to 6th (2 blocks):

• 204 North
• Capital Grille
• Asbury
• RiRia

6th to 8th (2 blocks):

• The Cellar at Duckworth's / Duckworth's
• Crunch Bistro

8th to 10th (2 blocks):

• Waterbean Coffee

That's 15 restaurants over 12 blocks, several of which are chains that might not participate. Compare this to cities where they might have 15 restaurants in a 3 block span where they are nestled together.

 

Edited September 25, 2020 by CLT2014

[elrodvt]

I remember when Burlington closed church street it was similar. Over time though the change was radical and resulted in a dense grouping in spots plus open areas where performers would work for money in their hat.

It can be done but requires patience, vision and city support such as low interest loans for locally owned retail and restaurants.

Edited September 25, 2020 by elrodvt

[CLT2014]

57 minutes ago, elrodvt said:

I remember when Burlington closed church street it was similar. Over time though the change was radical and resulted in a dense grouping in spots plus open areas where performers would work for money in their hat.

It can be done but requires patience, vision and city support such as low interest loans for locally owned retail and restaurants.

Ah got it, yeah, Burlington was very very planned and the city benefited from a great stock of historic and human scaled buildings (something we lack on Tryon). I'm not sure I'm convinced just shutting Tryon down and throwing some tables in the road will help in the short term with how spread out our restaurants are (maybe fill all the gaps with food trucks?)

Long term, I do think we could avoid the sins of all the failed pedestrian malls that have been tried in this country (Sacramento, Memphis, Fresno, Chicago, et.)  with strategic investments that are extremely tactical (replacing the road with pavers, adding statues, fountains, community space, kiosks, et.).  I'd recommend there be a well planned out strategy before closing to cars as we risk failure and then potentially making things worse in the minds of the public (like how do we guarantee performers move in to fill the empty gaps in the short term vs. homeless)? 

Edited September 25, 2020 by CLT2014

[elrodvt]

^I agree, a lot of powerful business owners railed against Burlington's plan but  they were eventually overcome by the success of the initial phase.  Somehow the current owners of the real estate need to understand this will be good for them in the long term. In other cities real estate on these malls is very desirable.

 In my opinion they key choices they made were:

1) Zoning, Historic districts and incentives for LOCAL business that leased there. Probably other breaks are possible.

2) Pick a few key blocks to start with but make it clear what the planned scope is in the end. Consider these first blocks as a prototype but don't start until all the policies above are in place. 

3) Don't try to over think it and end up with yet another "fake" pedestrian mall the. south is famous for.

4) Stop with the NIH thinking. Just copy Church street or Denver 16th street including the policies that made them successful. Denver does not seem to have the same focus on local as Burlington does IMHO. I give this like 0% chance unfortunately. Too much "won't work here in our super special place" thinking.

[KJHburg]

We need a taller Carvana tower like this new one along 75/85 Downtown Connector in Atlanta in midtown.   Strange thing is everywhere I have seen Carvana car towers across the fruited plain  they are along interstates except one city.......... that being the Queen City.    sorry side shot but you get the point.  Look how tall it is! 

[kermit]

This ship has mostly sailed in Charlotte but I'll post this particularly sad example of Atlantification anyway:

 

 

[KJHburg]

Speaking of Atlanta lots of lessons to learn for Charlotte here and I think some we have.  Despite Atlanta tearing down lots of its older high rises in downtown and midtown they have preserved some big buildings in former industrial areas including of course the huge Ponce City Market the old Sears warehouse.  Plus they bought up old rail lines that incircle the center city for the Beltline trail system.  Atlanta also has a private foundation that raises money for greenways and trails in the city.  Why doesn't Charlotte have one of those started by seed money from some major banks? 

https://www.pathfoundation.org/

all photos from last week.     Atlanta for all its sprawl (metro area the size of Massachusetts and population over 6 Million)  has really nice neighborhoods when you get down to that level.  Too big for me but I would rather live there than many other US metro areas larger and smaller.  

Edited September 27, 2020 by KJHburg

[KJHburg]

I visited downtown Chattanooga last week unfortunately when it is raining but saw enough to plan another visit.  Part of my swing through the south!   Their downtown is very vibrant lots of older buildings, plenty of street level activity, not much high rises or tall buildings but boy what a street life.  They have a downtown climbing wall in addition to downtown aquarium, baseball stadium, museums etc.   Plus they have a Moxy Hotel and Hotel Indigo downtown both brands that are missing from the QC. 

Here are some of my windshield shots of the Choo Choo city   7th photo is the downtown climbing wall glassed in around a parking garage.   Hmm do we have any parking garages tall enough here?  

Lessons for Charlotte save your historical buildings and small buildings and we still have some uptown including Hall House, the small retail  buildings on East and West Trade. They make great retail spots.  There was  a mix of local and national retailers.

https://www.downtownchattanooga.org/

Oh yeah BB&T has a great old office building there hope they keep that office.   Hmm this might be my 2nd favorite downtown in Tennessee. 

 

 

 

Edited September 29, 2020 by KJHburg

[KJHburg]

one more Chattanooga photo look at this old building. Love it.

 

[tozmervo]

4 minutes ago, KJHburg said:

one more Chattanooga photo look at this old building. Love it.

The Pickle Barrel. Used to be my parent's favorite date night

Next time it's not raining, I strongly recommend the sculpture walk from the TN Aquarium up to the Hunter Museum, and then across the river to the north shore, which has a wonderful park and main-street style businesses.

[KJHburg]

Just now, tozmervo said:

The Pickle Barrel. Used to be my parent's favorite date night

Next time it's not raining, I strongly recommend the sculpture walk from the TN Aquarium up to the Hunter Museum, and then across the river to the north shore, which has a wonderful park and main-street style businesses.

I will as I go to Nashville every year and decided like this trip to combine it with a trip to Atlanta and wanted to spend more time there but due the TS Beta rains I could not.  This was only my 2nd visit ever to Chattanooga but will not be the last.  

[KJHburg]

don't we have an incomplete building site at Stonewall Station that was to be a modular hotel.  Here is an apartment complex prebuilt in DC

https://www.bdcnetwork.com/washington-dc’s-first-modular-apartment-building-breaks-ground?oly_enc_id=8019B2501789I8C

[KJHburg]

was in Savannah this morning checking out the Plant Riverside with the JW Marriott hotel in an old Georgia Power 1912  power plant and with new construction too.  I have been to hotels from Beverly Hills to Miami this is quite possibly the most spectacular hotel I have ever seen.  It is like a museum inside with its collection of precious stones and rocks and full size T Rex!  This is Kessler owned who of course developed the Grand Bohemian hotels including the one in Charlotte.  Retail jewel boxes along the river side,  Dramatic interior lobby.  Museum quality pieces.  Historical preservation of the old plant with new construction that blends in and great collection of retailers national and local shops.  Lots of dining options and in 2021 an entertainment venue run by LiveNation.  Old smoke stacks you can go inside.   I have all the photos on the UP Savannah Plant Riverside thread but here are some of the best.  Truly a spectacular urban development for any city of any size.   rest of the photos in the Savannah thread.  I would highly recommend a visit if not staying there just walking through having coffee by the river or checking out one of their many restaurants or shops.  https://www.plantriverside.com/   Here is the history of the project  https://www.plantriverside.com/about/   Over 400 hotel rooms. 

If I was with the ULI I would recommend this as one of the best new projects in the USA for sure. I am sure this project will win national awards.  I know good urban development and this is one of the best.  

[elrodvt]

Agreed, I really like this project.

Savannah is really starting to get a good vibe about it.

[JRNYP2C]

Next time I'm down there, I'll have to check both places out.  Never knew that was there!

[KJHburg]

On 10/3/2020 at 12:43 PM, JRNYP2C said:

Next time I'm down there, I'll have to check both places out.  Never knew that was there!

Plant Riverside just opened within the last month.  

[KJHburg]

dining on public streets has taken hold from Apex to West Jefferson to now Charlotte.  

However there is a difference in safety and think one town/city has done it.  

1.   uptown Charlotte 

2. 3.  downtown West Jefferson NC today

4. 5. downtown Apex early Sept. 

 

I think Apex is by far the safest with its road barriers and they seem to be from town of Apex.  Charlotte should provide some for uptown restaurants for streetside dining and do it for free and for the duration of less than 100% inside dining.  I think the restaurants in Charlotte are doing this out of their own money and they should not have to since the state is restricting their businesses and Charlotte should place barriers like Apex for free for those restaurants requesting them in the name of safety of the diners.  

[CLT2014]

^ I like West Jefferson's layout best since it is the most open. Apex's feels like you are eating in a construction site and its ugly. The restaurants look to be more casual, so that may work for their price points. I don't think putting up construction barriers around Uptown is going to convince people they should come spend $35 - $50 pp of their hard earned dollars eating out in the road.

Edited October 6, 2020 by CLT2014

[Desert Power]

On 9/28/2020 at 8:24 PM, KJHburg said:

 

 

I had an old black Toyota pickup with a camper like this  

[KJHburg]

someone just mentioned Miami being underwater by 2040 good thing they are building this 62 story striking mixed use building in Brickell.

https://www.thenextmiami.com/62-story-brickell-fire-station-tower-will-include-a-public-park-by-highline-designer-groundbreaking-this-summer/

whether it gets started or not is the question.  Many things are proposed in Miami and they never see the light of day but supposedly they are getting the approvals now on this 700 foot plus tall building.