Learning from Other Places

[DMann]

Damn New Green Deal

[urbanlover568]

Tampa is killing it! Waterstreet starting to complete phase 1

Edited March 3, 2021 by urbanlover568

[KJHburg]

Meanwhile in Miami a 1000 footer is being built 

Sales Team Now In Place For Waldorf Astoria, Miami’s First 100-Story Supertall – The Next Miami

[elrodvt]

1 hour ago, KJHburg said:

Meanwhile in Miami a 1000 footer is being built 

Sales Team Now In Place For Waldorf Astoria, Miami’s First 100-Story Supertall – The Next Miami

Good plan, That should keep the penthouse above the water line.

 

 

[KJHburg]

when Miami is not partying they are building some TALL buildings check out this new one the tallest residential tower south of Manhattan. New renderings and this one is spectacular 

Waldorf Astoria Miami will become the tallest tower south of Manhattan | Building Design + Construction (bdcnetwork.com)

New Renderings & Details Of 100-Story Waldorf Astoria Miami, Which Will Become ‘Architectural Wonder’ – The Next Miami

I don't take baths but that tub view is incredible and I might start! 

 

Edited March 23, 2021 by KJHburg

[Windsurfer]

On 3/16/2021 at 1:59 PM, elrodvt said:

Good plan, That should keep the penthouse above the water line.

 

 

Will be fun during a hurricane

 

[rancenc]

I did not realize how massive and diverse Houston's cityscape is.  There are least 5 major clusters of high rises in this video with numerous single, pronounced high-rises scattered throughout.  I assume this is due to Houston being the largest local entity in the US without zoning ordinances.

 

[KJHburg]

and yes no zoning for anything however Houston has many planned communities and deed restrictions.  But  you can put up a high rise just about anywhere and no rezoning fights.  That all being said Houston does not look that different than most major cities.    I notice the  lack of zoning in the lack of sign ordinances and stuff like that.  But most people vote with their dollars and live in areas where they know what will be around them.  Intown Houston has very dense housing.  There is a place in the uptown Galleria area where twin 40 story apartment towers shadow over single family homes.  every town or city separate from Houston around the city has zoning so the further you get out from central Houston it looks more orderly.    But yes multiple clusters of high rises in every direction from downtown Houston. 

[DH17]

https://www.iheartberlin.de/a-glimpse-of-berlins-future-in-the-next-50-years/

Cool look at imaginations of what Berlin will look like in 50 years. I'm sure it (and Charlotte) will both be nearly unrecognizable.

[KJHburg]

LFOP Atlanta edition:  Just in the Big A. the ATL, largest city in the south.   Lot to learn and learn from their mistakes but there is plenty of good things. 

attached photos of some of the multiple skylines  Buckhead, Midtown and Downtown in one single shot,  Cumberland Galleria,  and Perimeter Center.  

Things that QC can learn from the ATL"

walking and trail foundation,.  they raised LOTS of money from private sources to leverage public money for trails like their Beltline but many others too.    PATH Foundation

Stadium entertainment district:  The Battery home of Truist Park home of the Braves is one of the best I have ever seen.  Lots of apartments, a hotel, office tower, lots of retail and entertainment venues.   Mr Tepper take note.  Also the regional home of Comcast,  new HQ of Papa Johns,  America HQ of Thyssen elevator and their elevator test tower.  It was jammed pack on a Monday afternoon last week.  Braves game was later than night (for more photos look up the Cobb County thread on the Atlanta UP) 

ATL is building homes and apartments and condo towers everywhere from downtown and mIdtown to inside the Perimter (285) area to way outside.  

Continuous transportation improvements on highways, toll express lanes, starting bus rapid transit and even a streetcar.  

They have a technology district center on Georgia Tech which with UNCC large computer degree program they should start a center uptown or a branch and start calling it the CTC Charlotte Technology Corridor from Southend through uptown up the LYNX to UNCC main campus.  

We all know many of Atlanta's faults but I will tell  you this in the metro areas of 6 million plus people  it is one of 2 I would even consider living in. even if my vehicle was painted yellow in Georgia pine pollen which is worse than the QC's  (my prefer metro city  range is 2-3 million ) 

Last 2 photos:  People were literally lining up to get into the  ATL LOL  this was on  I-75 rolling into the ATL in up in the Calhoun GA area and they already have one Bucee's on I-75 south and another one coming to N Georgia. 

 

 

Edited April 19, 2021 by KJHburg

[elrodvt]

2 hours ago, KJHburg said:

LFOP Atlanta edition:  Just in the Big A. the ATL, largest city in the south.   Lot to learn and learn from their mistakes but there is plenty of good things. 

attached photos of some of the multiple skylines  Buckhead, Midtown and Downtown in one single shot,  Cumberland Galleria,  and Perimeter Center.  

Things that QC can learn from the ATL"

walking and trail foundation,.  they raised LOTS of money from private sources to leverage public money for trails like their Beltline but many others too.    PATH Foundation

Stadium entertainment district:  The Battery home of Truist Park home of the Braves is one of the best I have ever seen.  Lots of apartments, a hotel, office tower, lots of retail and entertainment venues.   Mr Tepper take note.  Also the regional home of Comcast,  new HQ of Papa Johns,  America HQ of Thyssen elevator and their elevator test tower.  It was jammed pack on a Monday afternoon last week.  Braves game was later than night (for more photos look up the Cobb County thread on the Atlanta UP) 

ATL is building homes and apartments and condo towers everywhere from downtown and mIdtown to inside the Perimter (285) area to way outside.  

Continuous transportation improvements on highways, toll express lanes, starting bus rapid transit and even a streetcar.  

They have a technology district center on Georgia Tech which with UNCC large computer degree program they should start a center uptown or a branch and start calling it the CTC Charlotte Technology Corridor from Southend through uptown up the LYNX to UNCC main campus.  

We all know many of Atlanta's faults but I will tell  you this in the metro areas of 6 million plus people  it is one of 2 I would even consider living in. even if my vehicle was painted yellow in Georgia pine pollen which is worse than the QC's  (my prefer metro city  range is 2-3 million ) 

Last 2 photos:  People were literally lining up to get into the  ATL LOL  this was on  I-75 rolling into the ATL in up in the Calhoun GA area and they already have one Bucee's on I-75 south and another one coming to N Georgia. 

 

 

Funny you think the braves have one of the best parks. I would rank it near the bottom and I've been to a ton of parks. It's especially poor from an urbanists perspective. Not just me, It's been widely panned. No transit. Middle of nowhere unless you're driving. Etc.. I'm curious, have you visited any urban parks like Coors field? Although it's an old park it's mostly reviewed as one of the best. Walkable to downtown. Great transit options. Not a fake little city as is common in the south for some reason.  Etc.. 

And the fans are the worse. The whole tomahawk thing is insultingly insufferable.

Just my 2 cents. I still go there since it's the closest drive.

[KJHburg]

^^^ I am not suggesting we move the stadium or corresponding proposed entertainment district be moved out of uptown.  I am saying their format at the Battery is the right mix with residential, retail and entertainment venues. Plus the office buildings and hotel which is important.    I have been to Camden Yards, and where the Diamondbacks play etc.  

Edited April 20, 2021 by KJHburg

[DMann]

Orioles!!!!

 

[Madison Parkitect]

9 hours ago, elrodvt said:

Funny you think the braves have one of the best parks. I would rank it near the bottom and I've been to a ton of parks. It's especially poor from an urbanists perspective. Not just me, It's been widely panned. No transit. Middle of nowhere unless you're driving. Etc.. I'm curious, have you visited any urban parks like Coors field? Although it's an old park it's mostly reviewed as one of the best. Walkable to downtown. Great transit options. Not a fake little city as is common in the south for some reason.  Etc.. 

And the fans are the worse. The whole tomahawk thing is insultingly insufferable.

Just my 2 cents. I still go there since it's the closest drive.

That's an interesting discussion to have: the success and good design practice of including many different kinds of residential, entertainment, and retail around a stadium vs. the stupidity and inherent racism of the Braves moving their stadium out to the middle of the mostly white suburbs and cutting off access for a lot of people who live in urban Atlanta.

Hopefully the new Panther's stadium will be the best of both worlds, in the center city and surrounded by a vibrant district.

[KJHburg]

Actually Cobb county is 29% black,  62% white, 6% Asian so it is pretty diverse close to the Mecklenburg County figures (this from the US Census)    The Braves are a regional draw from Alabama, east Tenn, all over Georgia and parts of the Carolinas. and this is location is more convenient to the greater region as traffic is always heavy down in the city especially on the Downtown Connector I-75/85.   The Braves which own the Battery development wanted more control over the land development around their stadium and that was not possible at the Atlanta location. 

It is all working out even for the city as Georgia State University has taken over the actually stadium and lots of housing is being built nearby on all the surface parking lots.  

from the Biz Chronicle of Atlanta from Dec. 

""Trammell Crow Residential will begin turning over 3 acres of mostly vacant parking lots in Summerhill into 315 apartments, as a wave of revitalization continues sweeping over the south Atlanta neighborhood where the Braves used to play.  Project details: Trammell Crow completed the purchase of the site for the new apartments two weeks ago, paying $7.6 million for the 3.6-acre property next to the former Turner Field whose name is changing to Center Parc Stadium. See more here. The deal closed Nov. 20, according to Fulton County property records. The $70 million project will feature studio, one-bedroom and two-bedroom units with rents ranging from about $1,450 to $2,350 per month. Studios will be as small as 575 square feet.""

Parks, a museum for Hank Aaron and the university itself are involved in the redevelopment of the site.  It is also returning a neighborhood to where one was before both stadiums were built the old Fulton County Stadium and Turner Field.  

The point I was trying to make is any entertainment district near our existing stadium or any new one uptown needs to be a mixed use with lots of residential  office and hotel in addition to retail and entertainment venues.  A stand alone entertainment district will not work.  (see Epicenter thread for how things change)

 

[KJHburg]

LFOP Nashville edition:

Wow lots to say here.   Nashville has done a great job attracting jobs first Amazon with its 5000 jobs and probably now Oracle with a campus on the north side of the river with 5000-8000 jobs (that is in the works not finalized yet) and of course companies like Alliance Bernstein which looked at Charlotte.   They do a great job with historical preservation lots of hotels in old buildings and of course the whole Broadway stretch is mostly historic buildings that is can not be torn down.  (Hello Charlotte lets save the Hall House a former all brick 1940s high rise)   Nashville markets itself great Music City USA and after walking down Broadway at 12 noon on Friday they have more nightlife and live music in the daytime than we do at night.  Truly a mega tourist destination.  They are getting their 3rd Medical school yes 3 one at Vandy, one at Fisk and one coming soon to Belmont University.  Their new 5th and Broadway development with downtown Apple store is great and could be a model for a redeveloped Epicenter here in the QC.   Amazon's first building is 25 stories and the 2nd one yet to start is 29-30 floors.

What can Nashville learn from Charlotte?   INFRASTRUCTURE   Their interstates 3 of them converge downtown and they have not been really updated since the 1970s and daytime middle of the day back ups are common due to the way they highways come together and split apart.   I was stunned at the lack of sidewalks.  My niece lives a couple of miles from downtown in an older neighborhood which has very few sidewalks and she lives on a minor thoroughfare.  Then I started looking around more and streets like our Wilkinson Blvd had no sidewalks.  Of course they have no light rail or even enhanced bus system.  At the very least they should have Bus Rapid transit along Broadway that would connect downtown to the West End Vanderbilt area.  Their traffic woes are legendary and you can not even walk much on sidewalks except for downtown and in the Gulch.   our airport is far superior as it one of the best in the southeast.   They do not have a beltway yet they on the major route from the midwest to important Atlanta and Florida markets.  I am was told that I-840 can not be completed due rock formations!  One UPer there quipped "Welcome to Nashville a 21st century city built on a late 19th century infrastructure" and believe me this is not too far off.  

I got the sense the developers run the show there as I saw new projects with no street plantings and no on street parking even being built.  Apartments, infill housing, office towers are being built all over the city but the city is in financial straits.  As much growth that is going on in Charlotte ours seems much more orderly and thought out.  Kudos to our planning and transportation folks.  Many of their streets don't even cross at right angles it was crazy my niece driving me around making hard right turns then immediate lefts to continue on the same street! 

PS the Bank of America tower at Legacy would be the tallest building in Tennessee if it was there. 

the tour in photos:    Hey I saw a tractor pulling a cart with partiers, an open top bus with partiers, a pedal bar but I did not see the elusive hot tub party bus I think it comes out only at night and roams the streets!   I have declared Nashville the Day Drinking capital of the USA over New Orleans.  (maybe tied with Vegas) 

I like Nashville and I think I like it better than Austin now but I still prefer Charlotte and Raleigh over it.  

[elrodvt]

I get it @KJHburg and those are fair points. The point I'm making is it's ass backwards compared to other new successful parks. I would only have supported it in conjunction with a transit overhaul that allows city residents to easily get out there. It fits right in with GA's other policies towards minorities though doesn't it?

Anyhow, time will tell and given how Atlanta expands like spilled oil it could be more in the city a decade from now.

Totally agree you cannot engineer an entertainment district. These fake districts, like epic, seem to keep poping up in the south then dying. Couldn't say why. In any case we need to locate uptown at all costs then let things happen (with some helpful zoning).

Edited April 20, 2021 by elrodvt

[atl2clt]

12 hours ago, elrodvt said:

These fake districts, like epic, seem to keep poping up in the south then dying. Couldn't say why. In any case we need to locate uptown at all costs then let things happen (with some helpful zoning).

As a lifelong Braves fan, I 100% agree with this. The Battery is (for now) passable as an entertainment district. It has decent restaurants and sports bars and even a PBR bar ("Professional Bull Riding") with a mechanical bull. Wow!

However, just like the Epicenter, the entire complex feels artificial. Like it sprang up out of the ground just a few years ago (which it did) and has no sense of place or history. It entirely lacks the feeling of being "live in." In fact, while there are lots of apartments at the Battery, I don't think many of them are occupied by full-time residents. Whenever I go to games, I find it odd that there never seems to be any patio furniture on any of the apartment balconies. I think the majority of these apartments are rented out solely as Airbnbs to out-of-town fans. Therefore, the entire customer demographic at the Battery is fleeting and transient. This type of customer demographic cannot support the types of neighborhood joints that make communities special: hole-in-the-wall sub shops; corner grocers; dry cleaners; flower shops; immigrant-owned restaurants with a couple of plastic tables; smoky dive bars. In essence, no one is "a regular" at the Battery. 

The Battery will eventually go out of style. (And the mechanical bull at PBR will seen as weird and awkward in a few years). I'm not sure when, but I imagine there will be talks of relocating out of the Battery in 20 years or so. Then, that entire complex will be a dying relic of suburban parking decks.

There are timeless baseball parks like Fenway and Wrigley that will never go out of style. Then there are more recent baseball parks like PNC Park (Pittsburgh) and Petco Park (San Diego), which are both located near downtown and have incredible vistas of the skyline. These are the types of parks that are heralded as the best in the league and will prove much more prudent economic investments in their respective cities. 

The Battery currently ranks as #26 out of 30 on this list of best MLB parks: https://www.nbcsports.com/washington/nationals/ranking-all-30-mlb-ballparks. According to the link, "one of MLB's newest ballparks, Truist Park does its best not to be ugly but offers not much else in terms of quirks and originality."

[Madison Parkitect]

28 minutes ago, atl2clt said:

As a lifelong Braves fan, I 100% agree with this. The Battery is (for now) passable as an entertainment district. It has decent restaurants and sports bars and even a PBR bar ("Professional Bull Riding") with a mechanical bull. Wow!

However, just like the Epicenter, the entire complex feels artificial. Like it sprang up out of the ground just a few years ago (which it did) and has no sense of place or history. It entirely lacks the feeling of being "live in." In fact, while there are lots of apartments at the Battery, I don't think many of them are occupied by full-time residents. Whenever I go to games, I find it odd that there never seems to be any patio furniture on any of the apartment balconies. I think the majority of these apartments are rented out solely as Airbnbs to out-of-town fans. Therefore, the entire customer demographic at the Battery is fleeting and transient. This type of customer demographic cannot support the types of neighborhood joints that make communities special: hole-in-the-wall sub shops; corner grocers; dry cleaners; flower shops; immigrant-owned restaurants with a couple of plastic tables; smoky dive bars. In essence, no one is "a regular" at the Battery. 

The Battery will eventually go out of style. (And the mechanical bull at PBR will seen as weird and awkward in a few years). I'm not sure when, but I imagine there will be talks of relocating out of the Battery in 20 years or so. Then, that entire complex will be a dying relic of suburban parking decks.

There are timeless baseball parks like Fenway and Wrigley that will never go out of style. Then there are more recent baseball parks like PNC Park (Pittsburgh) and Petco Park (San Diego), which are both located near downtown and have incredible vistas of the skyline. These are the types of parks that are heralded as the best in the league and will prove much more prudent economic investments in their respective cities. 

The Battery currently ranks as #26 out of 30 on this list of best MLB parks: https://www.nbcsports.com/washington/nationals/ranking-all-30-mlb-ballparks. According to the link, "one of MLB's newest ballparks, Truist Park does its best not to be ugly but offers not much else in terms of quirks and originality."

Totally agree. Professional teams in all sports are leaving their suburban locations to move back into center cities, and for some reason Atlanta decided to go the other way with theirs. It'll be seen as a big mistake in the future. It would be like the Panthers building their new stadium in Fort Mill or Rock Hill and then putting a mini city around it; it wouldn't work.

[UPNoDa]

^This same scenario played out back in the early 90's for the Tampa Bay Rays. Although the stadium was placed 30 minutes outside of  Tampa in St Petersburg, it never quite drew the crowds they were expecting. Many people believed that it should have either been  built  near the Bucs stadium or somewhere near Ybor City (Tampa's entertainment district) to keep it in the larger of the three metropolitan areas.  Based on the pre-pandemic number of fans in Tropicana Field, one must concur that this is why they are in the dire situation now with regard to an out of state relocation.   I guess we'll see what their fate is post pandemic  and we are back to a somewhat normal baseball  season.

Fun fact, when Tropicana Field was completed, it captured a Guinness world record for the most NHL fans in attendance at a TB Lightning game prior to their new facility being completed in downtown Tampa.   Go figure

[SouthEndCLT811]

2 hours ago, Madison Parkitect said:

Totally agree. Professional teams in all sports are leaving their suburban locations to move back into center cities, and for some reason Atlanta decided to go the other way with theirs. It'll be seen as a big mistake in the future. It would be like the Panthers building their new stadium in Fort Mill or Rock Hill and then putting a mini city around it; it wouldn't work.

"For some reason" I recall reading the time it was announced, most of their season ticket holders were white suburbanites who fled to the northern suburbs.  So the team followed and gave them The Battery to replicate a sterile "urban" experience.

https://deadspin.com/the-braves-new-ballpark-is-an-urban-planners-nightmare-1797593063

 

Quote

^This same scenario played out back in the early 90's for the Tampa Bay Rays. Although the stadium was placed 30 minutes outside of  Tampa in St Petersburg, it never quite drew the crowds they were expecting. Many people believed that it should have either been  built  near the Bucs stadium or somewhere near Ybor City (Tampa's entertainment district) to keep it in the larger of the three metropolitan areas.  Based on the pre-pandemic number of fans in Tropicana Field, one must concur that this is why they are in the dire situation now with regard to an out of state relocation.   I guess we'll see what their fate is post pandemic  and we are back to a somewhat normal baseball  season.

Fun fact, when Tropicana Field was completed, it captured a Guinness world record for the most NHL fans in attendance at a TB Lightning game prior to their new facility being completed in downtown Tampa.   Go figure

Kind of nuts the Trop was built on spec to attract potential MLB relocations and almost nabbed the White Sox.  And now the same stadium may be the reason the Rays end up moving away from Tampa Bay. 

[kermit]

3 hours ago, Madison Parkitect said:

Totally agree. Professional teams in all sports are leaving their suburban locations to move back into center cities, and for some reason Atlanta decided to go the other way with theirs. It'll be seen as a big mistake in the future. It would be like the Panthers building their new stadium in Fort Mill or Rock Hill and then putting a mini city around it; it wouldn't work.

Even in Detroit, the NFL team moved from the burbs to the city...

Part of the story with Atlanta was that the city blew its full wad of discretionary dollars building the Benz for the Falcons. When the Braves had their hand out for a new ballpark around the same time, the city had to say that they had no money left for them. Cobb County decided they were willing to buy the Braves.

Closer to home, despite being a life-long Southerner I am a pretty big hockey fan. So much so that I would probably attend 10 ish Hurricanes games a year if they played in downtown Raleigh. However, PNC Arena is so hard to get to if you don't feel like driving that I have never been to a single game there. My parents even live in Durham, but I just can't stomach the thought of driving to PNC (and back) from their house.  Meanwhile I have traveled to a crapton of games in walkable places like Pittsburgh, DC, Brooklyn, Buffalo, Philadelphia, Chicago, Dallas, Detroit and Boston (and Toronto and Montreal -- I really need to get to Nashville). I am sure the Cane's don't miss my money when they are winning, but I could have helped to marginally improve their bottom of the league attendance when they suck. 

Digressing... I have spent a bunch of time in Wrigley and Camden Yards and think they are both spectacular. However, I think PNC Park in Pittsburgh may be the best designed ballpark in the country (except for the non-existent neighborhood around it).

 

Edited April 20, 2021 by kermit

[elrodvt]

25 minutes ago, kermit said:

Even in Detroit, the NFL team moved from the burbs to the city...

Part of the story with Atlanta was that the city blew its full wad of discretionary dollars building the Benz for the Falcons. When the Braves had their hand out for a new ballpark around the same time, the city had to say that they had no money left for them. Cobb County decided they were willing to buy the Braves.

Closer to home, despite being a life-long Southerner I am a pretty big hockey fan. So much so that I would probably attend 10 ish Hurricanes games a year if they played in downtown Raleigh. However, PNC is so hard to get to if you don't feel like driving that I have never been to a single game there. My parents even live in Durham, but I just can't stomach the thought of driving to PNC (and back) from their house.  Meanwhile I have traveled to a crapton of games in walkable places like Pittsburgh, DC, Brooklyn, Buffalo, Philadelphia, Chicago, Dallas, Detroit and Boston (and Toronto and Montreal -- I really need to get to Nashville). I am sure the Cane's don't miss my money when they are winning, but I could have helped to marginally improve their bottom of the league attendance when they suck. 

Digressing... I have spent a bunch of time in Wrigley and Camden Yards and think they are both spectacular. However, I think PNC Park in Pittsburgh may be the best designed ballpark in the country (except for the non-existent neighborhood around it).

 

I really like PNC also but Coors wins hands down. You just cant beat that view of the Rockies. Plus you can bring in your own food and drink (non alchohol).

[Madison Parkitect]

32 minutes ago, elrodvt said:

I really like PNC also but Coors wins hands down. You just cant beat that view of the Rockies. Plus you can bring in your own food and drink (non alchohol).

Dodger Stadium has entered the chat

[tarhoosier]

 

Dodger Stadium

Edited April 20, 2021 by tarhoosier