Learning from Other Places

[WCUP]

11 hours ago, smeagolsfree said:

This is the two mile view with a new 380’  4 blocks south proposed and a 20 story just completed, Not getting into a competition by any means, but the density runs over 30 blocks from the river and a good 10 blocks wide now. I did send KH Burg a list of proposed and Under Construction buildings and of course all will not be built but the track record right now is running about 80%. We now have about 100 buildings from 10 stories up proposed, but that is now starting on the East bank of the river with around 3 billion in construction planned there, with more being announced monthly with the announcement of the Oracle Campus, and the continued build out of the Nashville Yards development.

Seventy Five buildings either completed or under construction of 10 to 45 stories in the last 7 years.

It just seems folks love to put Nashville down or belittle the city but it seems we are here to stay. I have always had the utmost respect for Charlotte and the board, so a little respect. Photo below courtesy of Amar.

Nashville and Charlotte share insecurity and defensiveness as prominent local values.  Both are “world class” in my book.  

[KJHburg]

21 hours ago, smeagolsfree said:

This is the two mile view with a new 380’  4 blocks south proposed and a 20 story just completed, Not getting into a competition by any means, but the density runs over 30 blocks from the river and a good 10 blocks wide now. I did send KH Burg a list of proposed and Under Construction buildings and of course all will not be built but the track record right now is running about 80%. We now have about 100 buildings from 10 stories up proposed, but that is now starting on the East bank of the river with around 3 billion in construction planned there, with more being announced monthly with the announcement of the Oracle Campus, and the continued build out of the Nashville Yards development.

Seventy Five buildings either completed or under construction of 10 to 45 stories in the last 7 years.

It just seems folks love to put Nashville down or belittle the city but it seems we are here to stay. I have always had the utmost respect for Charlotte and the board, so a little respect. Photo below courtesy of Amar.

 

Nashville is booming I know for my annual trips to the city.  What the above photo shows is on the bottom the Vanderbilt campus the West End area which has many high rises now mostly residential but some office and hotels then inside the freeway loop there is the Gulch which is just absolutely booming then the more traditional downtown core.  Charlotte until very recently had a very dense tight urban core uptown but now high rises are spreading out from uptown mostly notably into Southend which is about 2 miles from uptown and now into Midtown along Morehead and where the new Wake Forest Med school will be.  Nashville has 2 urban core universities and several more right on the edge and that is great for the city.  Plus a river and a great brand identity.  I will be back in September so I will check it out again.  They have had more hotels built in the last 5 years than we had in the last 10 years.  Incredible tourism and convention and meeting business in Nashville.     Charlotte, Nashville, Austin, Dallas, Atlanta and Raleigh all compete in for many economic development prospects and all are at the top of list of where people are moving for sure.  

 

'

[East Side Urbanite]

As a Nashvillian (and friend of Smeagolsfree, who posted in this thread), I would like to weigh in.

I see Nashville and Charlotte offering two almost radically different urban fabric "models," of sorts, with their respective forms and functions showing significant contrast.

First, Charlotte:

The Charlotte urban manmade mass, overall, is very strong. I've visited the city three times (my sister lived in Chapel Hill for many years) and was highly impressed each visit. The most recent visit was about four years ago, and my friend and I walked through Uptown and took the Lynx into South End/Dilworth. Hugely eye-catching. The vertical density in Uptown is stellar (far better than that of Nashville). And having watched recently made drone videos, I see the towers now rising in South End/Dilworth (and that KJHburg references). Once Charlotte "fully expands" in that direction ... watch out.

Having two true big-time skyscrapers (i.e., buildings of 750 feet or taller), lots of high-rises 400 feet tall and taller, and the Lynx ... Nashville simply can't boast such elements.  The Charlotte skyline at night (with all the dramatic lighting and the skycrapers with "caps") is very cosmopolitan and big city. Midtown Charlotte is making strides and South End/Dilworth has long arrived (it's awesome). As to mixed-used districts located outside the core, I've been to NoDa and to the area where The Plaza and Central Avenue T-intersect. Two very cool districts, no doubt.

I'm also a big fan of Charlotte's three sports stadiums being located in Uptown. Collectively, they are very attractive and interact nicely with the public realm.

The intersection of Trade and Tryon is tremendously big time. Nothing even remotely like that in Nashville. Standing at the intersection and turning in a 360 manner ... simply put: wow.

Now, Nashville:

What Nashville lacks in a monster building and overall vertical density, it compensates both with 1. sheer number of buildings 100 feet tall and taller and 2. a massive (relatively speaking) geographic street grid that lends itself to urbanization. As Smeags noted, the tall buildings are seemingly located all over the city, extending three miles from the river downtown west through Midtown and to I-440 — while also "moving" more than a mile from north to south along the Cumberland River (thus creating a "T-esque" skyline). There are now four urban nodes with their own skylines: the CBD, the southeast quadrant of SoBro, The Gulch, and the epicenter of Midtown. Downtown has prominent hills Rutledge Hill and Capitol Hill (which create wonderful vistas), a river, and lots of civic/government and cultural buildings of note (including nine historic church buildings and the grand Schermerhorn Symphony Center).

Nashville's Midtown has become a city into itself, anchored by Centennial Park and Vanderbilt University (with Belmont University nearby). The recently completed 300-foot Gothic-collegiate brick-and-stone tower located on the VU campus and towering over West End Avenue has instantly become an iconic building, likely ranking among the most beautiful tall buildings in the South. 

Outside downtown and Midtown, Nashville offers multiple vibrant mixed-use districts: Five Points, Germantown, Wedgewood-Houston, 12South, Hillsboro Village, Sylvan Park/Sylvan Heights and The Nations.

 

To summarize ... urban Charlotte has a more modernist, cosmopolitan, "big city" feel with all the extremely tall skyscrapers, eye-catching night lighting, cool stadia and the Lynx. It is elegant and sexy, offering an almost "contemporary large Asian city feel."

In contrast, urban Nashville is more funky, gritty, quirky and "urbanly expansive" (in terms of sheer acreage of urbanized fabric). It is distinctive and even slightly "edgy" and cool in spots. I often hear visitors (I live and work downtown) say that Nashville has "personality."

As to which model is "better," there is no correct answer. Is is 100 percent subjective.

Charlotte is a strong city with lots about which to be excited. Full props to the Queen City.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited July 2, 2021 by East Side Urbanite

[rancenc]

Recent drone video of our southern neighboring metropolis that we love to hate!

 

 

[Skyybutter]

On 6/30/2021 at 10:44 PM, smeagolsfree said:

This is the two mile view with a new 380’  4 blocks south proposed and a 20 story just completed, Not getting into a competition by any means, but the density runs over 30 blocks from the river and a good 10 blocks wide now. I did send KH Burg a list of proposed and Under Construction buildings and of course all will not be built but the track record right now is running about 80%. We now have about 100 buildings from 10 stories up proposed, but that is now starting on the East bank of the river with around 3 billion in construction planned there, with more being announced monthly with the announcement of the Oracle Campus, and the continued build out of the Nashville Yards development.

Seventy Five buildings either completed or under construction of 10 to 45 stories in the last 7 years.

It just seems folks love to put Nashville down or belittle the city but it seems we are here to stay. I have always had the utmost respect for Charlotte and the board, so a little respect. Photo below courtesy of Amar.

Ok yes, I see buildings.  But there is no cohesiveness to any of them. Im indifferent regarding Nashville, but if this is what Charlotte competition looks like. Ha! In fact, it's somewhat beneath Charlotte to be concerned with Nashville. The only similarity is that both cities are in the South.

[smeagolsfree]

6 hours ago, Skyybutter said:

Ok yes, I see buildings.  But there is no cohesiveness to any of them. Im indifferent regarding Nashville, but if this is what Charlotte competition looks like. Ha! In fact, it's somewhat beneath Charlotte to be concerned with Nashville. The only similarity is that both cities are in the South.

Exactly to my point, always the snide little comments from the  people that have never been here. Always being put down by some folks from Charlotte and this has been going on since I have been on the board starting in 2005. Always a competition between Charlotte and everyone else. Well, Charlotte and Nashville just got left sitting in the dust by Austin! You probably have never been here and I will give you a personal tour of the Nashville when you come! We have our flaws, but there is a lot happening to overcome those flaws.

Everyone needs to get out and visit other cities. I have made several trip to Charlotte and enjoyed myself, but I do not degrade a city I visit publicly, but I do as per the title of this thread learn from other places as should you. Charlotte has a very nice and clean downtown, but very new.  The difference between Nashville and Charlotte is there is a certain level of old grittiness in Nashville that is not in Charlotte, especially, in the historic district and we are complaining we are losing way too many older buildings. We are going to lose more because of the Christmas day bombing is seems as there are four that do not seem to be able to be saved.

In the last ten years I have visited the following cities, Atlanta, Albuquerque, Austin, Boston, Cincinnati, Columbus, Des Moines,  Dallas, Greenville SC, San Antonio, Indianapolis, Buffalo, Cleveland, St Louis, Omaha, Kansas City, Denver, NYC, Phoenix, Memphis, New Orleans,  Raleigh, Washington DC, Winston Salem, Baltimore, Philadelphia, Pittsburgh, Birmingham, and numerous smaller cities. When I say visit, I get out and walk and drive the gut of the  city and study them, look to the quirky neighborhoods, study the architecture, talk to people, and enjoy myself! I always try to see the good in a city. Yes there are a few places I do not like and I would never move to but those are mostly for personal reasons.

I am sad for many of the rust belt cities that are in a state of decay at the expense of the southern cities. If you have not been to some of those cities you need to go and see some of those changes as many are barely holding on and some are making some exciting changes. So never put down another city, as you never know when you are going to be in a bad state of affairs and on the dirty end of the stick.

[elrodvt]

Having just spent a week in Denver, where I had hoped to attend the MLB ASG(long sad story), I think there's some learning to be done from their current economy and also from their transportation work.

Regarding the economy my observation is they were flying closer to the sun than Charlotte but more importantly, as pointed out to me by @KJHburg(many thanks!), their economy was highly dependent on one sector which happened to take a hit at the same time as covid striking. In their case they have a lot of oil and gas outfits taking up office space along with all the companies that rely on those businesses and with the current downturn in that sector they were really hammered. Imagine if instead it had been the banking sector being decimated at the same time covid struck?

<Side rant on>

Given the idiot politicians in neighbor states ranting like rabid dogs about vaccines and in turn driving very low vaccinated levels in their states (go Tennessee we knew you could prove again what idiots you are!) we may get a covid phase 2 Delta variant to actually experience that! ;-(. I think any persons from TN visiting other states should be required to quarantine under penalty of arrest.

<Side rant off>

I assume Charlotte would've been hit even harder and downtown might take decades to recover. This isn't any great observation but what exactly is the city doing to drive expansion into another sector, what sector is it, and what has the progress been in the last 5 years?

 

Regarding transportation they've somehow pulled off obtaining the funding to bury a large section of I70 to the East while reconnecting a couple of neighborhoods with a park like area above the buried section. Here is a project overview: https://www.codot.gov/projects/i70east .

I drove by the project and it's massive and really dusty. It's the dry season there which doesn't help either.

How did they get this funding and what mistakes can we avoid from studying their project should be analyzed and a study published. I know one mistake, since it was the focus of a Denver Post article while I was there, is they have funds earmarked for moving people temporarily due to noise but didn't plan on mitigating the dust (or moving people for that too) which is really hitting some folks hard.

I wish NCDOT would study their project and get the plans in to bury 277 ASAP. But no, We'll instead miss out on what's being described as a once in a generation federal transportation budget.

BTW, wrt to the learning in general, the city does periodically study others, including sending the council out to meet with them. I've never seen a report after which includes concrete things learned that will affect projects x,y,z. Maybe I just missed it though? In my business you don't go on an expensive trip without authoring a detailed report afterwards showing the money was indeed well spent by incorporating that learning into current projects back home. Which it nearly always was!

 

 

 

 

[Skyybutter]

17 hours ago, smeagolsfree said:

Exactly to my point, always the snide little comments from the  people that have never been here. Always being put down by some folks from Charlotte and this has been going on since I have been on the board starting in 2005. Always a competition between Charlotte and everyone else. Well, Charlotte and Nashville just got left sitting in the dust by Austin! You probably have never been here and I will give you a personal tour of the Nashville when you come! We have our flaws, but there is a lot happening to overcome those flaws.

Everyone needs to get out and visit other cities. I have made several trip to Charlotte and enjoyed myself, but I do not degrade a city I visit publicly, but I do as per the title of this thread learn from other places as should you. Charlotte has a very nice and clean downtown, but very new.  The difference between Nashville and Charlotte is there is a certain level of old grittiness in Nashville that is not in Charlotte, especially, in the historic district and we are complaining we are losing way too many older buildings. We are going to lose more because of the Christmas day bombing is seems as there are four that do not seem to be able to be saved.

In the last ten years I have visited the following cities, Atlanta, Albuquerque, Austin, Boston, Cincinnati, Columbus, Des Moines,  Dallas, Greenville SC, San Antonio, Indianapolis, Buffalo, Cleveland, St Louis, Omaha, Kansas City, Denver, NYC, Phoenix, Memphis, New Orleans,  Raleigh, Washington DC, Winston Salem, Baltimore, Philadelphia, Pittsburgh, Birmingham, and numerous smaller cities. When I say visit, I get out and walk and drive the gut of the  city and study them, look to the quirky neighborhoods, study the architecture, talk to people, and enjoy myself! I always try to see the good in a city. Yes there are a few places I do not like and I would never move to but those are mostly for personal reasons.

I am sad for many of the rust belt cities that are in a state of decay at the expense of the southern cities. If you have not been to some of those cities you need to go and see some of those changes as many are barely holding on and some are making some exciting changes. So never put down another city, as you never know when you are going to be in a bad state of affairs and on the dirty end of the stick.

Charlotte and Nashville are as different as oil and water imo. Charlotte is a business city and a place people raise their children in. Nashville is the Country Music destination of planet Earth! I keep hoping that one of those Country music awards shows might move to Charlotte just for one year. Maybe Nascar fits into the awards show somehow. So yes, Nashville has plenty for other cities to envy. But imo, it's not the skyline. (Btw, I have been to Nashville a handful of times.) I don't always feel welcome though because it's such a red state and I can smell bigotry and racism miles away.

    It's good you've had the opportunity to visit so many great cities.

  My list?

Atlanta Tampa Miami Nashville, New Orleans, Houston, San Antonio,Dallas, Chicago, Indianapolis, Pittsburgh, lived in DC briefly, lived in Philly for 10yrs, the city not the burbs. 

 Baltimore, NYC, Boston, Denver, Detroit, Minneapolis, Phoenix, Las Vegas, San Diego, L.A. The SF bay area, Portland, Seattle, Orlando, Cleveland and Toronto. Oh and Quebec. London, Rio De Jeneiro, Charleston SC, Jacksonville FL, 

  

[smeagolsfree]

On 7/18/2021 at 2:40 AM, Skyybutter said:

Charlotte and Nashville are as different as oil and water imo. Charlotte is a business city and a place people raise their children in. Nashville is the Country Music destination of planet Earth! I keep hoping that one of those Country music awards shows might move to Charlotte just for one year. Maybe Nascar fits into the awards show somehow. So yes, Nashville has plenty for other cities to envy. But imo, it's not the skyline. (Btw, I have been to Nashville a handful of times.) I don't always feel welcome though because it's such a red state and I can smell bigotry and racism miles away.

    It's good you've had the opportunity to visit so many great cities.

  My list?

Atlanta Tampa Miami Nashville, New Orleans, Houston, San Antonio,Dallas, Chicago, Indianapolis, Pittsburgh, lived in DC briefly, lived in Philly for 10yrs, the city not the burbs. 

 Baltimore, NYC, Boston, Denver, Detroit, Minneapolis, Phoenix, Las Vegas, San Diego, L.A. The SF bay area, Portland, Seattle, Orlando, Cleveland and Toronto. Oh and Quebec. London, Rio De Jeneiro, Charleston SC, Jacksonville FL, 

  

Nashville is one of the blue dots in a red state. Constantly being challenged by the state on every level by the laws they pass here from housing rent control, requiring affordable housing in developments, decriminalization of small amounts of marijuana, using dedicated lanes for mass transit, how we fund our schools, just to name a few have been met with countering state laws to stop Metro from doing these thing.  Nashville does have some racial disparity, but I challenge you to find a city in the south that does not. Most of the folks here were appalled at the violence that happened here during the BLM marches and the violence that happened here were due to mostly white hooligans that were just trouble makers. The largest march was organized by three teenage girls that were of different races and drew 10,000 people of all races that was very peaceful and supported by the majority of locals. Don't confuse the majority of Nashvillians with the suburbanites, which many are Red, Right, & Bigoted!

The Unwelcome feeling you get are from the visitors from other cities that come from other red states and congregate in the core  around Broadway. I have the highest distaste for that group of people myself, however we do try to fleece every dollar we can off of them. I am one of the biggest critics of Nashville on our board. Sometimes I am like a broken record as we have not had real leadership in the city for sometime. You did not state the last time you were here, but when you come back, please let me know as you did not get the whole story, or go to the right places. Nashville has changed dramatically in the last 7 years. It is not the same city it was if you have visited since then.

The city has 4 HBCU's, soon to be 3 medical schools, 3 law schools, 4 other colleges/universities. Country Music is just the tourism aspect of the city. Healthcare is a multi billion dollar industry, as is warehousing, auto mfg., higher education, finance, music production, insurance, & now the tech industry. There is now the National Museum of African American Music right down on Broadway, in the same complex that the new Alliance Bernstein Building has located. The Gulch is now being filled with mid-rise & high-rise buildings with many more planned and under construction including two Amazon Office buildings with a third most likely on the way, and a new Bank building relocating their HQ in the Gulch. One of the issues is the screwy height restrictions they have here, which again I am a huge critic of and think that the Metro policies are just STUPID.

Oracle just announced a 65 acre campus on the East Bank of downtown with 8500 jobs. RMR out of Boston is planning on a Mixed use project on the east bank with up to 8 or 9 buildings up 30 stories, as it was 7 but they bought more land (again height restrictions') and the Titans organization is planning on filling in all of the parking lots around the stadium with a huge mixed-use project that is in the planning stages now. Our curse is we have hundreds of acres around the downtown area that can be developed, so this keeps the height of buildings down because it is cheaper to go out and not up.

Remember, I know what is coming to a certain degree as far as buildings in Nashville. I sort of have the inside scoop on a lot of development coming and I am not in development, but I do research for the media in growth & development. I know for every one project right now that I know about being pitched, there are another 5 floating around. Residential development is hot right now and that is where a lot of our high-rises will come from over the next decade as many will be built downtown. There is no good mass transit system, so folks that work downtown will want to live downtown. Right now there are 27 towers that have just started or have a 90% chance of starting over 20 stories I know about, one of which will be a new tallest and many of which are residential. I do know there are more being rumored.

Again this is not a competition, but Nashville is more than meets the eye. No, it is not a banking city, but it is an up and coming tech city. It is a city that is moving forward despite not having a viable mass transit system. As one of my co-workers says, what Charlotte has Nashville can get but what Nashville has Charlotte will never have. For example could Nashville be a banking city? yes/ Could Nashville have multiple high-rises as tall as Charlottes? yes/ Could Nashville have a viable mass transit system? yes/Could Nashville have an amusement park? Possible, one on the way.

Could  Charlotte ever be the state capitol? Very doubtful/ Could Charlotte have a river front? no/ Could Charlotte have 8 established universities 4 of which are HBCU's? no

The list goes on. So never attack a city and say your city is is never a competitor or there is no  comparison. That dog can always come back and bite you in the rear.

[atl2clt]

1 hour ago, smeagolsfree said:

what Charlotte has Nashville can get but what Nashville has Charlotte will never have.

This is true. 

Nashville historically has a "cool factor" that Charlotte and other peer cities in the South do not have (and perhaps never will have). A few things come to mind:

1. The NFL is one of the biggest media machines the country. There is a reason that the NFL has hosted the NFL Draft in Nashville, but has never hosted the draft in Charlotte. 
2. Nashville is a major destination for bachelor and bachelorette trips. The honky-tonk aesthetic of Broadway is among the best nightlife destinations in the South. I would imagine that large swaths of Nashville's CBD are dependent on the travel/tourism dollars (which can be both a blessing and a curse).  Charlotte, on the other hand, lacks a distinct nightlife scene to compete with this kind of leisure travel. 
3. Nashville draws music artists from around the world to play at the Ryman Auditorium--one of the most culturally significant music venues in the country.  For instance, when Wu-Tang Clan played at Ryman Auditorium, it was national news. There are no music venues in Charlotte that have anywhere near that kind of pull. In fact, I am routinely surprised that US tours often skip over Charlotte in favor of Greensboro. Why is that?
4. As you pointed out, Nashville benefits tremendously from the Cumberland River (which eventually meets with the Ohio River and then the Mississippi River) . It cannot be understated just how important waterways were in developing the cultural identity of American cities. Landlocked cities in the US are, almost by definition, post-industrialization cities. It is no coincidence that many cities lacking navigable bodies of water (e.g., Charlotte, Dallas, Atlanta and Phoenix) struggle with identity issues. All of the foregoing cities are lumped into the category of "transplant cities." They were generally blips on the map prior to railroads. Nashville, on the other hand, was a trading outpost dating all the way back to the 1600s. 
5. Having Vanderbilt University located in the heart of Nashville provides enormous economic and cultural benefits to the city. Vanderbilt is among the most competitive universities in the country, boasts an enormous and renowned medical system, and hosts SEC sports. To have that same effect to Charlotte, it would be like someone picking up Duke University and nestling it neatly within Plaza Midwood. 
6. The reason that Google and Amazon and other FAANG companies are moving to Nashville has to do with all of the reasons you and I listed above. These companies are confident that Nashville will attract young talent. 
7. I have noticed that many "Instagram influencers" (e.g., fitness junkies, health gurus, food critics and fashion personalities) are based in Nashville. While this may sound trivial, it is not. There is an entire generation of kids, teenagers and young adults that follow Instagram personalities as the newest form of media. Whenever an "Insta-celebrity" posts about their favorite new restaurant in Nashville or posts about a "Girls Trip to NashVegas", it reinforces to future generations that Nashville is cool. Charlotte is entirely lacking in this online media presence. 

It is foolish to think that Charlotte will ever have the cultural amenities of Nashville. Charlotte and Nashville, I don't believe, are necessarily competitor cities, though they are peer cities due to their relatives sizes and location in the South. 

On a final note, there is an old quote that's escaping me (not sure if anyone can help me find it?) that I think may be relevant here. It's from the 1950s or 1960s, I believe, and it basically goes something like: "The people of Charlotte have always struggled with this feeling of inferiority. If the Soviets ever decided to attack American cities, the people of Charlotte would be very disappointed if Charlotte was not one of them."

[East Side Urbanite]

atl2clt makes some outstanding points. I strongly enjoyed reading that overview.

And I agree with skyybutter that Charlotte and Nashville are two almost radically different cities. As such, it makes for interesting contrasts and comparisons    between the two. But, and as I noted, there is no correct or incorrect as to which city is "better." That is fully subjective.

Smeags and I often talk about Nashville in relation to other Southeastern cities (notwithstanding Atlanta and Miami, of course, as those two are on a vastly different level than the other SE  cities). He and I both know Nashville has its strengths — and its flaws. We obviously have our biases (we want Nashville to shine) but we do make every effort to offer credit and respect to other cities. Smeags has visited so many cities and he tells all the folks he meets in those cities how much he likes their cities. I respect him for that. My sister lived in Chapel Hill for eight years and I visited Raleigh three times during that span (though the last times was in 2002). I would strongly like to see Raleigh today. So many more urban buildings, restaurants/retail, etc., than when I was last there.

Charlotte (I was last there  about four years ago) is an outstanding city on so many levels. Because of the relative "geographic compactness" of Uptown, developers have been forced to "build tall" in the Queen City. The result is a hugely impressive level of vertical density.  I would be if thrilled if Nashville offered simply one-third of such vertical density. With South End and Midtown changing rapidly, Charlotte continues to evolve in a positive manner. And you can't put a price on the Lynx. Having major mass transit ... I envy Charlotte in that respect.

Nashville lacks a concentrated and imposing skyline seen in mid-sized cities such as Charlotte, Denver, Pittsburgh and Minneapolis. And, of course, we don't have major mass transit.

But Nashville is hugely fortunate to have a collection of "built-in" advantages (over many cities) that, for years, we failed to capitalize upon but now seem to be doing just that: state capitol (which yields numerous civic/government buildings), a strong (for our population) roster of colleges and universities, a brand (music/entertainment/tourism), lots of cultural buildings and attractions, a massive chunk of urbanized street grid, and a river. Those are all characteristics that simply can't be "manufactured." Either a city has those characteristics (or some of them) or it doesn't and likely never will. As such, we Nashvillians need to be humble and appreciative and not be dismissive of those cities that don't offer those elements. Some of us do a good job of being humble. And some of us can be arrogant about it.

I enjoy hearing what folks think about Nashville and welcome the criticism (if given politely and constructively).

Charlotte is a wonderful city. Full credit.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited July 19, 2021 by East Side Urbanite

[KJHburg]

As I have said before lets make Charlotte the best city it can be and dittos for Nashville and Raleigh and Austin.

speaking of the Texas Capital city

Austin, Texas 4K Drone Footage | Downtown/UT Campus 2021 - YouTube

[East Side Urbanite]

23 hours ago, KJHburg said:

As I have said before lets make Charlotte the best city it can be and dittos for Nashville and Raleigh and Austin.

speaking of the Texas Capital city

Austin, Texas 4K Drone Footage | Downtown/UT Campus 2021 - YouTube

 

Agree. Those of us who live in/are fans of the cities you mention ... we are, essentially, "all in this effort" together.

Strong drone footage of Austin. I had seen previously and just watched a bit more. Thanks for posting.

[KJHburg]

attention local architects we need one of these a swimming pool connected 2 high rises like this one in London.  (and our swimming season is a lot longer here)\

HAL Architects designs 'swimmable bridge' that connects two residential buildings | Building Design + Construction (bdcnetwork.com)

[KJHburg]

Meanwhile in our capital city of Raleigh the 33 story Walter apartment tower is topping out.  the 4th tallest in the city (about the height of Lowes Tech tower) but the tallest building in suburban Raleigh in the North Hills Midtown area. 

Smallwood on Instagram: “Walter at North Hills in Raleigh, NC is reaching for new heights as we near the topping out of the structure in August! With unmatched…”

Walter - North Hills (visitnorthhills.com)

[Skyybutter]

On 7/22/2021 at 3:35 PM, KJHburg said:

attention local architects we need one of these a swimming pool connected 2 high rises like this one in London.  (and our swimming season is a lot longer here)\

HAL Architects designs 'swimmable bridge' that connects two residential buildings | Building Design + Construction (bdcnetwork.com)

Austin is developing a very impressive skyline! Im not sure where they are getting their architects from but Charlotte could use some of the flair Austin has. 

    I expected to see more cranes though. I guess building has slowed there somewhat?

  Thanks for the awesome link!

[KJHburg]

there was a little bit of negative discussion towards both Charlotte and Raleigh in the Richmond  UP and I decided to answer it.  Here is my answer and sorry the lunch offer is only for Richmond people LOL  You might learn a thing or two from this as Richmond was once much larger and more important in the southeast than Charlotte or the little town of Raleigh! 

 

I am a Charlotte native and current resident but I did live in Fairfax County for 10 years in the early 80s.  I am very familar with how the rest of the state hated Northern VA then and probably still does now. I have read the last couple of pages of posts about Richmond vs Charlotte vs Raleigh vs Atlanta etc.  The first thing I would tell you is you need to be the best Richmond you can be and stop always comparing yourself to everyone in the class (class of Southeastern cities) 

But lets see how we got here.  Richmond was bigger than Charlotte for almost all its history until 1980 when Charlotte passed. True NC cities can annex land in the counties and that has always been in the case in NC.  Virginia's separate counties and independent cities makes this all but impossible.  You can lay that at the foot of your state assembly.  Charlotte is in Mecklenburg county but does not consume all of it.  There are 200,000 people living outside the city of Charlotte in Mecklenburg county.  They do share a few services like parks and recs and libraries.  

Here is a little history on population growth in the 3 cities:  Look in key years like 1900 and 1940 Richmond was much bigger and of course you have many more historical neighborhoods than we do in both cities since we were much smaller. I love Richmod's older neighborhoods with your row homes and elegant homes and I hope you keep those neighborhood in tact.  Reason Charlotte and Raleigh does not have them?  We did not need them.  Our population growth went on a tear in the late 1970s all the way to current day.

Comparison of Richmond (RVA)  +  Raleigh (RTP)  +  Charlotte (CLT)  Pops.  (largest to smallest city in each decade)

Note - All figures are U.S. Census Bureau decennial enumerations, except for the 2020 U.S. Census Bureau estimates as the C.B. has not yet released official decennial counts for 2020

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1800:    RVA:  3,761                     Ral:  669                           CLT:  276

1860:    RVA:  37,910                  Ral:  4,780                       CLT:  2,265

1900:    RVA:  85,050                  CLT:  18,091*                   Ral:  13,643            N.B.:  1st time Charlotte led Raleigh in pop.

1940:    RVA:  193,042               CLT:  100,899                   Ral:  46,879

1950:    RVA:  230,310               CLT:  134,042                  Ral:  65,679  

1970:    RVA:  249,621*             CLT:  241,420                  Ral:  122,830          N.B.:  1970 census was the high-water mark for Richmond's pop.

1980:   CLT:  315,474*                RVA:  219,214                Ral:  150,255          N.B.:  1st time Charlotte led Richmond in pop.

1990:  CLT:  395,934                   Ral:  212,092*               RVA:  203,056          N.B.:  1st time Raleigh led Richmond in pop.

2000:  CLT:  540,826                   Ral:  276,093                  RVA:  197,790

2010:  CLT:  731,424                   Ral:  403,069                  RVA:  204,214

2020:  CLT:  900,350                   Ral:  483,579                  RVA:  232,866

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2020 US Census Bureau MSA est. pops.

Charlotte    2,684,276     Rank:  22

Raleigh Cary metro :  1,420,376     Rank:  42  does not include Durham which is a separate metro area but maybe put back together again

RVA:  1,303,469     Rank:  44

Why did Charlotte not only catch up but grew much bigger and here of late the same for Raleigh?  

1. The choice by Piedmont Airlines to put the hub in Charlotte .   One of your posters said that Richmond was their first choice and that was a big mistake to reject it looking back.  Charlotte embraced it first with Piedmont Airlines then US Air and now with American Airlnes. Our city always wanted to become a big national city.  We have 700 flights and are the 2nd biggest hub for the largest airline on planet earth (American)  By early 1980s we got our first nonstop to Europe in London then onto other European cities and we are a hub to the Caribbean too.  In fact our CLT airport is up to 97% of its 2019 peak when 50 million passengers came through our airport.  This is from the Business Journal last week about June's passenger count: 
" Newly released figures from airport officials show nearly 4.2 million people boarded or departed a plane at CLT last month, a slight increase over the 4.1 million passengers recorded there in May and off by just 3% from the 4.3 million people in June of 2019."
Our airport is the number 1 reason cited for corporations moving their HQ or operations here. One joke here in the cold war if the  Soviet Union did not do a first strike on Charlotte we would be disappointed LOL. 

2. Interstate banking:  NC has long allowed statewide banking so anywhere in our 500 mile long state you can open a branch. This prepared our banks to become even bigger.   Most states did not allow this.  Old NCNB based in Charlotte found a loop hole in Federal Reserve rules and bought a small bank in Florida.  Then the rest is history.  When other states opened up their banking NC banks NCNB/Nationsbank/ Bank of America and First Union/Wachoiva now Wells Fargo were ready to pounce.  Our big NC banks rolled up banks all over the southeast including most of the biggest in VA. Banking and finance jobs is the largest source of personal income in Charlotte with Bank of America and Truist (BB&T and SunTrust) both based here and Wells Fargo having their largest employment center in Charlotte with over 27,000 employees.  They heyday for this was 1980s and 1990s to the current.  My mom worked with United VA Bank based in Richmond (worked up in NoVa)  which became Suntrust now it is Truist. Truist moved its HQ here as compromise between former HQs in Atlanta and Winston Salem.  They purchased a 47 story 970,000 sq ft building downtown and put their name on it.  

Quick note on Raleigh and why it has grown even faster than Charlotte 3 words Research Triangle Park.  Started in 1959 as a dream in the piney woods between Raleigh and Durham has grown into a huge technology and biopharma hub.  When pharmaceutical companies worldwide need to conduct the tests for their new drugs it is primarily done in the Raleigh Durham the contract research organization leader in the world.  Apple is opening a 3000 person AI center there now and Google opening a 1000 person engineering hub in Durham.     This all brings me to the 3rd point.

3. NC Boosterism:  the commonwealth of VA has and still is a richer state than NC always has been.  NC is going to try much harder and the history of Charlotte and the state our boosterism is legendary.  We promote ourselves great.  We dream of ideas like a world renown research park in the piney woods of central NC.  We build tall buildings because our bank leaders especially in the past wanted world class buildings to attract high level talent.  We have big plans for our airport that kept getting bigger and bigger and attracting even more flight  Yes our cities are newer but as I always say people vote with their feet.  Raleigh is the 2nd fastest growing metro area in the country.  You may think it has no charm but to the 1000s of people moving there every year probably think differntly. Once you get people to Charlotte or Raleigh hard to get them to leave.  Ally Bank formerly GMAC was based in Detroit but a high level executive they hired from Bank of America did not want to leave Charlotte.  So he grew an operation here even though it is not the headquarter into a 1000 employee bank office in a brand new 26 story building downtown. Guess what the fastest cohort of age group of people is moving to NC's cities?  The 20 somethings and those over 55 who want to retire or semi-retire near our large cities of Charlotte and Raleigh.  So whoever mentioned get your friends and parents to move to Richmond is right that happens all the time here.  I know of a family that moved to Charlotte with 10 other family members from southern California.  They love it here.  Both Charlotte and Raleigh metros are growing at twice the rate of Richmond.  

The ports of Virginia are FAR superior to those in NC.  Richmond should be the #1 logistics hub in middle Atlantic states even serving NC.  Savannah is a much smaller metro and city than Charleston SC but the Savannah port is much bigger the 4th largest container port in US. The logistics hub between Savannah and Atlanta is huge. Charlotte benefits from both Charleston and Savannah ports and our own rapidly expanding Wilmington port.  

Low cost alternative:  Richmond should be poaching as many companies as they can from the DC metro area.  The cost of living in DC area is so high and you are so close.  Only the people needing to call on the Pentagon and big Federal agencies should be up in DC and the rest of the offices should be there.  That is why I think Costar will eventually call Richmond its HQ and it might already be its largest hub.  They will build a much bigger building in downtown RVA.  

I know many of your fine VA Tech graduates as a huge number live in the Charlotte area.  They come down here for job opportunities many of which are availabe in Northern VA but the cost of living is so high there. Why is not I-64 called an Innovation Corridor or something or why is there no research park?  With UVA, VCU and William and Mary and ODU why not encourage those tech firms serving our huge Federal government not in the Richmond metro area?  NC thinks big and thinks outside of the box to generate buzz and guess what it has worked for us.  Did you know that biggest source of new NC residents is from the commonwealth of VA?  
Where are North Carolina’s newest residents moving from? | Carolina Demography (ncdemography.org)

So because our cities are newer and now bigger than Richmond is no reason to dislike them. We will NEVER have the stock of older buildings you have.  But for close 200 years your city was bigger than anything in the state of NC. Charlotte used to but not much anymore get dumped on by larger US cities.  Case in point a Phoenix sportswriter said before we got an expansion NBA team the Hornets the only franchise Charlotte will ever get it is a McDonalds.  This only made people here work harder to get a team buying more season tickets etc.  

I would be happy to personally give you a tour of neighborhoods in Charlotte where historic textile mills and factories have been restored.  Tree lined streets with homes both new and old intermixed And yes even our gleaming uptown skyline (another boosterism uptown vs downtown but it is located on a ridge). Our booming suburbs and small ring cities with their own charms.  We try harder here in NC and it is working for us.

I will leave you with this quote from 1900.
"Vale of Humility between Two Mountains of Conceit" is a phrase describing North Carolina that originated from a speech given by Mary Oates Spratt Van Landingham on 6 Mar. 1900. That day, she spoke on the "native literature" of North Carolina before the Mecklenburg Historical Society in Charlotte. Referencing North Carolina's location between South Carolina and Virginia, Van Landingham said, "Where there are mountains of conceit, there are apt to be valleys of humility." The term has remained a source of tongue-in-cheek pride for North Carolinians.

So come on down for a visit and I will treat you to lunch on my NC dime!

Edited August 1, 2021 by KJHburg

[KJHburg]

This looks great and I will check it out next month when I am in Dallas.

AT&T Discovery District is Dallas’ newest mixed-use destination | Building Design + Construction (bdcnetwork.com)

Home | Dallas, Texas | AT&T Discovery District (att.com)

Edited August 3, 2021 by KJHburg

[rancenc]

Populations stats from our neighbor to the south.

https://www.thestate.com/news/upstate/article253449029.html

[Matthew.Brendan]

[rancenc]

Some recent population stats from the nation's capital city!

https://dcist.com/story/21/08/12/census-shows-d-c-s-fastest-growth-in-noma-navy-yard-and-southwest/

 

[KJHburg]

On 8/12/2021 at 7:20 PM, Matthew.Brendan said:

and where might this be?  It sorta looks like the Japanese gardens in my old hometown of San Antonio! 

[JRCLT]

and where might this be?  It sorta looks like the Japanese gardens in my old hometown of San Antonio! 

That is little Island off the shores of Manhattan on the Hudson river.

[KJHburg]

this from Raleigh is getting national recognition. the new Downtown South project.  (actually it is separated from downtown Raleigh by a fairly large residential neighborhood) but it would be a southern gateway to downtown.  Anyway it is a good plan.

10 Design reveals plan to revitalize downtown Raleigh | News | Archinect

Home | Downtown South (visitdowntownsouth.com)

Kane Realty which is the most prolific developer in Raleigh is behind it.  To me it is like a North Hills Midtown but on the south side of the city.  

[KJHburg]

In regional news Oracle will build an almost 6000 person campus across the river from downtown Nashville.

""Newly disclosed state records reveal exactly how many jobs Oracle Corp. committed to create in Nashville in exchange for a $65 million incentive, cementing the recruitment as the largest economic development deal in Tennessee history. Oracle (NYSE: ORCL) pledged 5,989 jobs at its forthcoming waterfront office campus on the East Bank of the Cumberland River, according to documents made public at the Sept. 7 meeting of the state Funding Board. The board unanimously approved the $65 million grant; board approval is a necessary step before a state grant can become official.  Oracle will invest $1.35 billion to create its campus, according to the newly public state records. That's a larger and more specific price tag than the $1.2 billion mark company representatives cited earlier this year, noting that Oracle "expected to exceed" that threshold.

For state grants, companies usually commit to figures that are slightly less than what they actually expect to reach. That's because state law mandates "clawback" provisions that require companies to refund some amount of aid if they fall a certain percentage short of their pledges. Oracle has until Dec. 31, 2029, to reach at least 90% of its job target before any clawback might be enforced, said Bob Rolfe, commissioner of the state Department of Economic and Community Development. Oracle will submit an annual update on its progress for the life of the grant. That 2029 date is a new marker in Oracle's hiring timeline. Previously, executives have said they expect to have about 2,500 jobs in Nashville by the end of 2027. They also said they expect that headcount to reach 8,500 people by the end of 2031.  Oracle's $65 million grant is among the largest in state history, equaling what Amazon.com Inc. (Nasdaq: AMZN) received for its announced 5,000 office jobs at downtown's Nashville Yards mixed-use development.  "The economic impact is off the charts," Rolfe said of Oracle. "They'll be spending about $1.4 billion. This is an ROI [return on investment] that, gosh — probably inside of a couple of years, we'll have recaptured our outlay of $65 million."  The company paid $253.7 million for 65 acres of land on the East Bank three months ago.   Oracle plans to build three office buildings at River North, but not all at once, Rolfe said. Construction on the first one is set to start early next year, resulting in a 500,000-square-foot building. Construction on the second office building could begin in 2025, with work on the third one starting in 2028 or earlier. As the Business Journal reported earlier this month, Oracle has scouted options for as much as 100,000 square feet or more of interim office space downtown while its first buildings rise at River North.  Oracle's average hourly wage will be $54.92, according to state documents presented at the Sept. 7 meeting. That's in line with Oracle's previously announced average annual wage of $110,000.""

 

Oracle likes riverfront locations since moving their HQ from California they are on the river south of downtown Austin now this riverfront campus. 

Edited September 7, 2021 by KJHburg