Learning from Other Places

[Poo Diddy]

32 minutes ago, AirNostrumMAD said:

Is that a handrail & footrest so you can stop for the (presumed) traffic light while seated on a bike?  If so that's pretty slick.  

Edited July 19, 2022 by Poo Diddy

[15895]

The detriment of parking minimums and positives of incremental development.
 

 

https://www.strongtowns.org/journal/2019/6/11/a-city-shaped-by-many-hands

[15895]

Washington (DC) has a ton of development. Crazy development boom that tops Seattle in the crane counts sometimes. Lots of sexy development, pretty world class. Tons of mass transit projects that are enviable. Then add on top of that Rosslyn-Ballston Corridor, Alexandria, "National Landing" (FKA Crystal City & Pentagon City...), Silver Spring, Bethesda, Tysons, Reston, Herndon and then lots of areas building highrises and urban centers but aren't as yuge.

I say that BECAUSE. Sometimes it's easy to focus on the shiny things and lose site that we (the USA) should be building for all citizens and not just some. Which I am a horrible offender at it, admittingly. 

Below is in Congress Heights, DC. It's "across the river" which is the more dangerous area of Washington. Until recently, there was only 1 grocery store. etc. 

The development below is called St. Elizabeth's East. The development will employment-focused housing (100 beds), senior/medically frail housing (75 beds), a health clinic, low-barrier housing (200 beds), and a day center to provide services, including laundry, showers, haircuts, clothing, storage, computers, phones, a homeless shelter, sports stadiums and arenas, etc.

Additionally as part of the development, the retail incubator component broke ground today. They have a temporary retail village but the ground breaking today was for a permanent retail incubation district within it.

https://dcist.com/story/22/07/20/st-elizabeths-new-retail-development-local-artists-entrepreneurs/

Quote

 

There’s some new retail coming to Ward 8, and the entrepreneurs opening there say that they hope the development at St. Elizabeths East will have a big impact on the community — and on their organizations too.

The shops will be part of an interim retail space  the city just broke ground on at St. Elizabeths East near Congress Heights Metro station. The entrepreneurs will open storefronts in the David Adjaye-designed structure next door to the Entertainment and Sports Arena, home to the Washington Mystics. The retail building is expected to open in December, and be a temporary use while the city prepares future phases of development at the 183-acre site, including more residential, parking, and health care facilities.

The temporary retail village that will include eight local businesses, Mayor Muriel Bowser announced July 11, including:

Black Bella; Soufside Creative; Chris Pyrate & Friends; LoveMore Brand; Our Armoire; Paradyce Clothing Company Inc.; Salon On The Ave.; The Museum

 

Among other components will be lots of retail, a grocery store (Which DC has begun subsidizing grocery stores even through eminent domain) and other amenities.

The proposed development would also deliver 295 market-rate and 126 affordable rental apartments, 20,865 square feet of commercial space, and 240 below-grade parking spaces. The affordable units would be for households earning up to 30% and 50% of area median income (AMI).  

This has been in the works for a long time but is U/C and advanced in the stages.

To bring this back to Charlotte...

I do work in Commercial Multifamily Real Estate and lots of Affordable and low income housing properties throughout the entire country. So the above isn't unique to Washington (I've seen similar elsewhere) but I'm more familiar with Washington, since I live there.

I'd love to see the above happening near say Hidden Valley near Old Concord Station with a frequent buses to the Light Rail and some frequent bus service (or other areas we tend to overlook and focus on densifying those areas that help a plethora of Charlotteans). Grocery, housing for chronically homeless, market rate townhomes, etc. Resources to help entrepreneurs, community centers, etc. Diversity of income. Low income, mental health services, market rate. 

It's not "Exciting" or "sexy" but it's very needed. Charlotte has too many low income housing that makes a car practically necessary. Not even good housing with services for the homeless or mentally challenged. But I think as a group of people interested in the urbanity of Charlotte, we should champion projects like these too and not just hoping for W hotels and Wegmans exclusively.

I was impressed with this property that is similar in San Diego called Quality Inn Apartments:

ttps://www.google.com/maps/place/1840+Fourth+Ave,+San+Diego,+CA+92101/@32.7247241,-117.1611566,3a,75y,184.58h,91.55t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sMVs_VYmzfgIVjz3b6tWP-w!2e0!7i16384!8i8192!4m5!3m4!1s0x80d954a556b73e8d:0xb914f91ec5bef0a9!8m2!3d32.7246994!4d-117.1614392?hl=en

It has most mental health housing, transitional youth, chronically homeless etc. in the center of San Diego. It too works with multiple non-profit agencies to give services to those populations.

Edited July 22, 2022 by AirNostrumMAD

[KJHburg]

Where am I?  somewhere in a totally revitalized downtown of a Carolina city.   Very busy downtown for such a hot day.  Lots of restaurants lots of  people mulling around in oppressive heat.  Love the scale of this downtown,   The answer will surprise many of you.   and don't cheat by looking up the restaurants or businesses.  Just see if you recognize this downtown.  I will add more photos after you guess.  Winner will get a 3 pack of the finest NC born doughnuts or one of their new ice creams and you know I am good for it. 

[rancenc]

I think the city that @KJHburgis alluding to above has a possible "military" angle to it's identity!! 

[KJHburg]

15 minutes ago, rancenc said:

I think the city that @KJHburgis alluding to above has a possible "military" angle to it's identity!! 

go ahead and I know you this state.  Yes it is downtown Fayetteville Hay St.  the heart of the red light district in the 1970s and when Fayetteville earned the the nickname Fayette-Nam.  

the high rise is the Prince Hotel which is now apartments next to their baseball stadium home of the Woodpeckers.  Downtown AMTRAK station.  It is unbelievable transition and now is the pride of the city and Cumberland County.   they have the new NC Veterans Park I have not ever seen so I guess it has been 10 plus years since I was last downtown.  They have columns from all 100 counties in the state with handprints of veterans from each county.  the columns are organized by age of the county which is an interesting way to set them all up.  

https://www.liveattheprincecharles.com/?utm_knock=g    imagine that this city redeveloped an old historic hotel into apartments.  Too bad Charlotte does not get it! 

I did not post a photo of the old Market Hall as that is very recognizable.  But honestly this downtown is completely back and thriving in this the 6th largest city in the state. 

Truist had to get their name on this stadium somehow so they are the official sponsor of the Woodpeckers ticket office.   But the stadium is called Sengra https://www.segrastadium.com/

Edited July 29, 2022 by KJHburg

[15895]

Really Nice pictures of Fayetteville. It reminds me of Gastonia. I’ve always thought downtown Gastonia was pretty nice. 

[15895]

This would be good to have in Charlotte and specifically the river district but really everywhere. In Oklahoma City, a defunct airport turned into the Wheeler District.

There’s a lot of urbanity to appreciate in this development. 
 

 

 

Edited July 31, 2022 by AirNostrumMAD

[kermit]

Next month’s Music Midtown in Atlanta was just cancelled due to changes to Georgia gun laws. Its now legally impossible to prohibit guns in the festival venue (a leased city park) since prohibiting guns in the venue is a condition of most band contracts, the cancellation of the festival was required.

https://www.rollingstone.com/music/music-news/music-midtown-atlanta-canceled-georgia-gun-laws-1390754/

 

Edited August 1, 2022 by kermit

[smeagolsfree]

22 hours ago, AirNostrumMAD said:

This would be good to have in Charlotte and specifically the river district but really everywhere. In Oklahoma City, a defunct airport turned into the Wheeler District.

There’s a lot of urbanity to appreciate in this development. 

It is urban in a matter of speaking but is still suburban in its character. There are tons of these developments around Nashville that are Live, Work, Play and Shop in nature that are popping up in the burbs and just outside the downtown urban Nashville area. I can't say they are good because they detract from the real urban environment of what is really the downtown model. Traffic is a nightmare around these projects during rush hour because there are not enough jobs for all of the people to work in the developments.

I do see the attraction of these type of projects, but not everyone or every city is built to have this model. Nashville for one has them and is not well suited because there is no mass transit to speak of and likely will not be unless we get a mayor that has half a brain as we have had three losers in a row. OKC needs to look at more inner-city development than more sprawl and this is just what this is. When I look at the picture, I see tons of dead space that invites more homes and sprawl.

Sorry to be hyper critical, but we are seeing this in all of the surrounding suburbs, but the office buildings are still being built in the downtown area with folks commuting there. These types of developments work best as TOD's Transit Oriented Development's. I could not tell from the renderings if there was any transit with the development but looking at the website it does not appear to be the case. 

Since we do not have transit, the best thing we can do is have a highly urbanized downtown and developers seem to understand this. We are getting tons of urban projects announced. One of our posters just created a very accurate rendering that sort of went viral and the local media picked up on it. The Metro Planning dept said the numbers of buildings were very accurate with what is planned. This is more in line with what needs to happen with a city. I will just include the media link.  Even though it says Amazon is halting construction, it is reevaluating space. There are still 3000 more hires to come.  Foundation work is continuing on tower 3. The renderings do not show Germantown towers and East Bank towers proposed or under construction of which there are several. Even though the number of proposed towers was said to be 50, the actual number is closer to 100.

@NashUrbanPlanet

 

 

[15895]

1 hour ago, smeagolsfree said:

It is urban in a matter of speaking but is still suburban in its character. There are tons of these developments around Nashville that are Live, Work, Play and Shop in nature that are popping up in the burbs and just outside the downtown urban Nashville area. I can't say they are good because they detract from the real urban environment of what is really the downtown model. Traffic is a nightmare around these projects during rush hour because there are not enough jobs for all of the people to work in the developments.

I do see the attraction of these type of projects, but not everyone or every city is built to have this model. Nashville for one has them and is not well suited because there is no mass transit to speak of and likely will not be unless we get a mayor that has half a brain as we have had three losers in a row. OKC needs to look at more inner-city development than more sprawl and this is just what this is. When I look at the picture, I see tons of dead space that invites more homes and sprawl.

Sorry to be hyper critical, but we are seeing this in all of the surrounding suburbs, but the office buildings are still being built in the downtown area with folks commuting there. These types of developments work best as TOD's Transit Oriented Development's. I could not tell from the renderings if there was any transit with the development but looking at the website it does not appear to be the case. 

Since we do not have transit, the best thing we can do is have a highly urbanized downtown and developers seem to understand this. We are getting tons of urban projects announced. One of our posters just created a very accurate rendering that sort of went viral and the local media picked up on it. The Metro Planning dept said the numbers of buildings were very accurate with what is planned. This is more in line with what needs to happen with a city. I will just include the media link.  Even though it says Amazon is halting construction, it is reevaluating space. There are still 3000 more hires to come.  Foundation work is continuing on tower 3. The renderings do not show Germantown towers and East Bank towers proposed or under construction of which there are several. Even though the number of proposed towers was said to be 50, the actual number is closer to 100.

@NashUrbanPlanet

 

 

I don't think it's hyper critical at all, it's just your opinion.

But Charlotte is very suburban by nature and I assume Nashville (I've been there but a long time ago). Nashville hasn't been caught up with Charlotte yet in the downtown living. Charlotte's growth is primarily low-density sprawl. I can only imagine Nashville is the same. Charlotte & Nashville are going to be lower density auto-oriented and in the case of Charlotte, I rather the low density areas become more dense even if marginally more dense. I think the Wheeler District and the towns of Cornelius, Huntersville and Davidson located in Charlotte's primary county are good "compromises" or aspirations for lower density developments and for inner city neighborhoods to support some of these dense "suburban" live/work/play Birkdale Village type places (but with some higher density multifamily mixed in). 

Also, it depends on what you consider to be the "downtown model". I don't really see Nashville, Charlotte, etc. as being a downtown model based. The bread & butter of the two cities are having a lot of house for your $, lower taxes, etc. That is fundamentally something that can not happen with increased density (and if so, please give an example. That's not snark, but I'd be interested to know). Additionally, I would consider something more than 2 sq. miles of higher density to start considering it a "downtown" model of growth. If Charlotte and Nashville were to grow up to metropolitan areas the size of 6-10 million, I would imagine it would resemble a Houston or Atlanta. I personally consider those to be sprawly and relatively lower density (obviously "lower" density relative to their metropolitan sizes).

Some good graphs below.

https://ctycms.com/tn-nashville/docs/annual-residential-report-2021[2].pdf

Edited August 1, 2022 by AirNostrumMAD

[smeagolsfree]

I do not think the Downtown Sq miles is very accurate and never has been. The urban area of what is part of most folks consider the Urban area of Nasville is roughly a 3 mile x 2 mile area and the definition is now out the door here. I think the same can be said for Charlotte as the density has spread into the South Dillworth area. There are almost as many residential buildings planned for Midtown and West End as there are the SoBro area and the Gulch.

There are now plans for the downtown to extend across the river onto the Eastbank when the new stadium is built with several large mixed-use projects in the planning stages and one under construction with mid-rise & high-rise in all. I tend to throw those stats out with the baby and the bathwater. Indianapolis is distorted as is everywhere else when we have jokers in offices trying to decide what is and is not considered downtown. Indy is now a total joke as compared to Nashville and Charlotte in the grand scheme of things. I would consider Tampa the same as Nashville and Charlotte. The lines need to be redrawn and the criteria has changed. Unfortunately, with Nashville, there are a lot of housing units that have been built downtown and the surrounding area. The problem is that the air B&B's are taking up space in 50% (a guess) of those units causing a huge problem with the numbers of residents and the State does not help by passing regulations tying the hands of the city. 

I can't put my hands on the data for rent in 2022 but in 2020 Nashville's average rent was the highest of the five mentioned here and a lot of that was because of the housing shortage and some of that is driven by the huge numbers of Air B&B's. Our numbers of residential units are distorted.

I do love to exchange info because this is truly learning from other places. Every city is different, and Nashville is so different on so many levels because of the tourism factor that just changes the dynamics here.

[15895]

1 hour ago, smeagolsfree said:

I do not think the Downtown Sq miles is very accurate and never has been. The urban area of what is part of most folks consider the Urban area of Nasville is roughly a 3 mile x 2 mile area and the definition is now out the door here. I think the same can be said for Charlotte as the density has spread into the South Dillworth area. There are almost as many residential buildings planned for Midtown and West End as there are the SoBro area and the Gulch.

There are now plans for the downtown to extend across the river onto the Eastbank when the new stadium is built with several large mixed-use projects in the planning stages and one under construction with mid-rise & high-rise in all. I tend to throw those stats out with the baby and the bathwater. Indianapolis is distorted as is everywhere else when we have jokers in offices trying to decide what is and is not considered downtown. Indy is now a total joke as compared to Nashville and Charlotte in the grand scheme of things. I would consider Tampa the same as Nashville and Charlotte. The lines need to be redrawn and the criteria has changed. Unfortunately, with Nashville, there are a lot of housing units that have been built downtown and the surrounding area. The problem is that the air B&B's are taking up space in 50% (a guess) of those units causing a huge problem with the numbers of residents and the State does not help by passing regulations tying the hands of the city. 

I can't put my hands on the data for rent in 2022 but in 2020 Nashville's average rent was the highest of the five mentioned here and a lot of that was because of the housing shortage and some of that is driven by the huge numbers of Air B&B's. Our numbers of residential units are distorted.

I do love to exchange info because this is truly learning from other places. Every city is different, and Nashville is so different on so many levels because of the tourism factor that just changes the dynamics here.

I see what you’re saying. I will say, the growth I see in Charlotte and the growth I think Nashville is undergoing will resemble Atlanta. Which to me is a sprawling and fairly lower density than it could be. But if Atlanta is what you envision as dense, downtown centered growth than I agree with you. 

If Charlotte were to balloon to a 6 million metro like Atlanta, I imagine it would be very close looking to Atlanta. Even how Downtown Atlanta is a core with the Linear Midtown resembles Uptown Charlotte & SouthEnd (on a much smaller scale). Its hard to imagine Nashville/Charlotte looks anymore urban than Atlanta if not less given the lack of adequate rail. 

Also, 2019 MARTA rail was getting up to 176,000 4Q19 riders/week day (DC metro 816,000 per the same source, good lord) 176,000 is a ton of vehicles off the road versus the infrastructure Nashville and Charlotte can offer. 

None of that is meant to diminish ATL btw. And since talking about MARTA, a good ole train pic 

 

Edited August 1, 2022 by AirNostrumMAD

[KJHburg]

I go to Nashville yearly will be there at the end of Sept this year.  I would say both cities Charlotte and Nashville are both sprawling lower density cities that are both changing rapidly .  Main difference i see is that Charlotte newly dense areas is along the Light Rail line both towards NoDa and University and of course in Southend where we are seeing lots of high rise developments.  Nashville's urban core is expanding outward in all districts with less so over the river but it is expanding there.  Charlotte's is expanding with the most density southward and outward from uptown in Southend, midtown Morehead corridor.   That is where most of high rises are going up.  Nashville's extends over to Vanderbilt from downtown.  But Charlotte's is tighter and close to mass transit lines which Nashville does not have.  Both cities have an incredible amount of high rise and new denser development ongoing.  For every hotel in the center city area of Charlotte Nashville literally has 5-7 going up.   My Nashville UP friends know that their city needs to get serious about infrastructure roads, transit etc or it will choke the growth.  Their downtown interstate freeways have not been upgraded in decades not to mention transit options.   Looking forward to my visit @smeagolsfree mid to late Sept.  Staying east of town but of course will come into the city for sure.  

[smeagolsfree]

I am looking forward to the visit Kevin. Guys I have a lot of respect for this board. Back in the early days of UP there was a huge amount of jealousy between the boards at the time and I think most of that has gone. I know there was a lot between Atlanta & Charlotte, Nashville & Memphis etc. The 2008 recession just about did us in. I just got the Memphis board up and running after three years after getting 2 hard working mods in there and it took three and a half years. Not the case with the Huntsville Al board. The Knoxville/Chattanooga board is barely warm but sees a little activity and I know Kevin post there some. I still have to slap our guys down for putting another city down.

I look to this board as a model and always have and you guys are great, and I love Charlotte. The invitation always stands for an invite to anyone that wants to visit Nashville. MarkHollin or I will be glad to take the time and give you a guided tour as we are both sort of retired or semi-retired. We still do our forum meets on a monthly basis and most of the time do them on a Zoom format as well. If anyone wants to join us, please contact me and I will set you up with the invite.

I love this thread because I get to see the OKC project and Greenville SC and other cities. We have a similar thread, but it is where folks have traveled. When politics and religion get involved things normally get sent to our Coffee House to die. I have tried to get interest there but to no avail. 

Keep up the great work here and on your board as I love seeing everything that happens in Charlotte. I just hope your State legislature does not go off the conservative deep end and tries to blackmail or force your city into things that hurt it. That is the case here. Anytime mass transit has come up, laws have been passed to make it difficult if not impossible for Nashville to get a system in place, by not allowing access to state roads, no funding, etc.  The same goes for affordable housing when Metro was trying to mandate a certain % of projects to have affordable housing, the State stepped in and stopped it. Laws have been passed by the State to target Nashville and Memphis but no other cities. Nashville tries to get the STR's under control, but the State passed legislation to stop Metro from doing that and it has gotten even more out of control. We have entire buildings downtown that are STR's now. We have STR's in once quiet neighborhoods that cause huge problems and Metro' s hands are tied because the State stepped in.

There are no plans from the State to do any major work to our inner interstate loop. Ignored! You see where I am going with this. We have a lot of problems that can't be fixed short term. The rural areas of the State just hate Nashville because they think all the money goes here when in fact all the money comes from here and if it were not for Nashville, the little Podunk counties would be even poorer than they are now. All they care about are the Titans and the loosing Vols. The State quickly committed 500 million for the new Titans stadium for the East Bank with the stipulation it had to be enclosed driving the price even higher for Nashville's part.

[KJHburg]

How did we let this village steal a slogan from us?

https://www.charlotterising.com/

[15895]

I have a lot of urban stuff on Twitter. The main reason I use Twitter, really. 

I saw the picture below and was so in love with it immediately and didn’t even realize it’s the DC area (Bethesda.) I can’t keep up with the region, mostly just the city. But the entire metropolitan area is just really ramping up protected bike lanes and bike infrastructure. Everywhere I go in DC, Montgomery County & Northern VA the bike infrastructure being added is crazy and really the best I’ve seen by far in the US and by far the most extensive . 

 

But the above. As they say on Urban Twitter “my politics is this”.  Charlotte, every city in the US just needs massive biking infrastructure upgrades. Not just some here and there; everywhere. All over. On most streets. Not just a few key streets. 

[JRCLT]

I have a lot of urban stuff on Twitter. The main reason I use Twitter, really. 
I saw the picture below and was so in love with it immediately and didn’t even realize it’s the DC area (Bethesda.) I can’t keep up with the region, mostly just the city. But the entire metropolitan area is just really ramping up protected bike lanes and bike infrastructure. Everywhere I go in DC, Montgomery County & Northern VA the bike infrastructure being added is crazy and really the best I’ve seen by far in the US and by far the most extensive . 
http://content.invisioncic.com/x329420/monthly_2022_08/C54D513D-3BB9-4F7F-960B-6D64B0795886.thumb.jpeg.8c4990dd54872207a6c06ed01fd36ea7.jpeg
 
But the above. As they say on Urban Twitter “my politics is this”.  Charlotte, every city in the US just needs massive biking infrastructure upgrades. Not just some here and there; everywhere. All over. On most streets. Not just a few key streets. 

That’s how Monroe/Idlewild intersection should have looked like from what feedback people gave.

[davidclt]

On 7/6/2022 at 1:12 AM, carolina1792 said:

Raleigh's first Social District is a pilot program, focus on one visible area first and see how it pans out. Next year the social district could expand and other districts could apply to get their own social district. 

Raleigh's social district seemed quite vibrant (not crazy busy on a Thursday but bustling). Charlotte needs to figure this out. 

[JRCLT]

Raleigh's social district seemed quite vibrant (not crazy busy on a Thursday but bustling). Charlotte needs to figure this out. 
http://content.invisioncic.com/x329420/monthly_2022_08/IMG20220818194356.thumb.jpg.7b8107a974fd743b15dec14c95db581e.jpg

Apparently they’re expected to vote on this Monday, August 22nd. Stay tuned I guess.

[carolina1792]

7 hours ago, davidclt said:

Raleigh's social district seemed quite vibrant (not crazy busy on a Thursday but bustling). Charlotte needs to figure this out. 

Durham's Social District will cover almost all of its downtown. I think they're almost ready with the plan 

[KJHburg]

this is great hope they come to Charlotte or someone does this in Charlotte.   

You have heard of coworking offices but have you heard of cowarehousing for small and micro and startup businesses.  and they seem to work in older warehouse buildings like with 20-24 feet height which most modern new warehouses are 35-40 or more feet high.  

From Raleigh the the Loading Dock.

https://www.theloadingdock.com/cowarehousing   watch the 2 short videos to learn about it.  

[rancenc]

Looks like downtown Atlanta is facing some foreclosure issues similar to Charlotte's dilemma over the EpiCentre complex!

https://spectrumlocalnews.com/nc/triad/ap-top-news/2022/09/07/iconic-part-of-atlanta-skyline-foreclosed-in-loan-default

[rancenc]

Recently came across this announcement on the Richmond VA board of a new agriculturally based development that  is setting up shop in that metro area.  This type of economic project would be a wonderful compliment to the existing NC Research Campus in Kannapolis.  Hopefully there are more innovative projects of this type being announced and that NC, and the Charlotte region is particular, are the beneficiaries!!

https://www.valdostadailytimes.com/ap/business/plenty-building-world-s-largest-indoor-vertical-farm-campus/article_6ea0f258-c663-5235-859a-49b0a7a9088e.html

[KJHburg]

Photos of Nashville today and the construction here is unbelievable more thoughts about what Charlotte can learn and what Nashville can learn from us. 

More later on all of this but their 3rd Medical school is under construction. at Belmont University

First 2 photos is the Nashville Yards with its 2 Amazon towers up now.