KJHburg

Triangle Economic News

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I will be relocating to the triangle after living in Virginia Beach for over 30 years. After reading these posts and the bickering about what area is better and complaints of hipsters and suburban sprawl, I realized it’s exactly like what I’ve witnessed watching Norfolk and Va Beach go back and forth. Good to know that although I’ll live in another state I’ll still feel right at home  /S

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If Cary were completely unattractive, it would not have grown from a town hardly anyone had heard of to the 7th-largest city in the state. Or to put it differently, more people now live in Cary than live in Raleigh ITB. Or, Raleigh ITB is about 13% of Wake County's population. 

Anyone on this forum can pick a spot in which to live and work. Respecting the choices that other people make comes with that freedom. Sure, Cary can be lampooned in some respects and validly criticized in other respects. But so can Raleigh ITB. That doesn't mean that any one person's decision to live in Cary, Raleigh OTB, or Raleigh ITB is deficient; it's merely different.

FWIW, I don't live in Cary and when we moved here, my wife wouldn't consider it. Ask her why, but she's not on this forum.

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On 11/2/2017 at 3:29 PM, ctl said:

If Cary were completely unattractive, it would not have grown from a town hardly anyone had heard of to the 7th-largest city in the state. Or to put it differently, more people now live in Cary than live in Raleigh ITB. Or, Raleigh ITB is about 13% of Wake County's population. 

Anyone on this forum can pick a spot in which to live and work. Respecting the choices that other people make comes with that freedom. Sure, Cary can be lampooned in some respects and validly criticized in other respects. But so can Raleigh ITB. That doesn't mean that any one person's decision to live in Cary, Raleigh OTB, or Raleigh ITB is deficient; it's merely different.

FWIW, I don't live in Cary and when we moved here, my wife wouldn't consider it. Ask her why, but she's not on this forum.

Cary is impressively, 7th ranked in Nc population. At their current growth rate they'll be 4th in our lifetime after Charlotte, Raleigh and Durham. Winston, Greensboro and Fayetteville are not growing nearly as fast as Cary. They have an opportunity to set an enviable standard for a modern, fast-growing, municipality, and actively are working on greenspace, urban/active downtown and selective densification. As long as it stays desirable, the tax values will stay up, the tax rates, down and it'll stay on top ten lists. Will be an interesting evolution. 

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17 hours ago, Jones_ said:

Cary is impressively, 7th ranked in Nc population. At their current growth rate they'll be 4th in our lifetime after Charlotte, Raleigh and Durham. Winston, Greensboro and Fayetteville are not growing nearly as fast as Cary. They have an opportunity to set an enviable standard for a modern, fast-growing, municipality, and actively are working on greenspace, urban/active downtown and selective densification. As long as it stays desirable, the tax values will stay up, the tax rates, down and it'll stay on top ten lists. Will be an interesting evolution. 

Yes, but take into consideration that Cary cannot sprawl forever.  There was an article in July in the N&O about how Cary will have to change how it grows:  http://www.newsobserver.com/news/local/counties/wake-county/article161380008.html

Still, at the rate Fayetteville is growing (just over 2% from 2010 to 2016), I'd expect it to be overtaken by Cary sometime in the next few censuses.

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There is little opportunity for Cary to expand its boundaries in Wake County.  A large area between Holly Springs Road and Lake Wheeler Road sits outside any municipal jurisdiction, but most of that land has been developed into subdivisions already and I doubt any of them would agree to annexation. Involuntary annexation is off the table indefinitely. 

The question is to what extent Cary (and Apex) will grow into Chatham County.

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^ It appears that some of the subdivisions to the west of Yates Store Rd., which are mostly in Cary's jurisdiction, have already crossed the county line.  I wonder how close to Jordan Lake they will extend in the future.  Is there any state park/recreation area that protects the northern part of the shoreline from development?

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21 hours ago, Trent Y said:

Oh snap. Does this indicate....we will see highrises in Cary one day??

No, just a bunch more suburban crapbox midrises like the SAS campus and the addition Metlife is building along Lake Crabtree.

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On November 8, 2017 at 11:52 AM, InitialD said:

No, just a bunch more suburban crapbox midrises like the SAS campus and the addition Metlife is building along Lake Crabtree.

Separation of [compatable] uses drives me crazy. 

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Major tech firm looking at Raleigh and Atlanta for possible relocation would need around 200,000 sq ft of office space. Appian and this is from a subscriber only article in the Atlanta Business Chronicle 

"“We need 200,000 square feet right now. But we grow so quickly — our headcount grows by one-third a year,” Calkins told the Washington Business Journal. Appian plans to stay in Virginia, Calkins said at the time. 

Atlanta is said to be competing with Raleigh for the economic development project. Raleigh’s lower cost and tech talent base makes it an attractive relocation site for Appian. The city’s relative proximity to the D.C.-area is another plus.""

https://www.bizjournals.com/atlanta/news/2017/12/06/virginia-tech-firm-scouts-atlanta-for-possible-hq.html?ana=e_mc_prem&s=newsletter&ed=2017-12-06&u=oAaDx%2B74FoP4qOJ%2By4AU6dhJPpc&t=1512564713&j=79293881   

They are currently based in Reston VA high cost of living DC suburb. 

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13 hours ago, KJHburg said:

Major tech firm looking at Raleigh and Atlanta for possible relocation would need around 200,000 sq ft of office space. Appian and this is from a subscriber only article in the Atlanta Business Chronicle 

"“We need 200,000 square feet right now. But we grow so quickly — our headcount grows by one-third a year,” Calkins told the Washington Business Journal. Appian plans to stay in Virginia, Calkins said at the time. 

Atlanta is said to be competing with Raleigh for the economic development project. Raleigh’s lower cost and tech talent base makes it an attractive relocation site for Appian. The city’s relative proximity to the D.C.-area is another plus.""

https://www.bizjournals.com/atlanta/news/2017/12/06/virginia-tech-firm-scouts-atlanta-for-possible-hq.html?ana=e_mc_prem&s=newsletter&ed=2017-12-06&u=oAaDx%2B74FoP4qOJ%2By4AU6dhJPpc&t=1512564713&j=79293881   

They are currently based in Reston VA high cost of living DC suburb. 

Sounds very cool, but...

I find it very unlikely that Raleigh is really in the running against Atlanta? So different in so many ways, even when you add financial incentives into the mix. I could believe Atlanta vs. Dallas or Raleigh vs. Nashville but Raleigh is again way to different from Atlanta to make a fair comparison imho! 

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^ Then it is really Raleigh's to lose and they just poking around Atlanta to get a better deal from NC.   Raleigh being closer to DC where they are now based may make your city the leading candidate.  Raleigh has had great success attracting tech companies expanding MetLife, Credit Suisse and more recently Infosys.  They know they will find the labor market here.  The only thing maybe in ATL's favor is their airport and just overall larger labor market.  However on the best list of place to live  and fasting growing cities with millenials and people in general Raleigh beats Atlanta.  It is easier to find 200K of office space in Atlanta but it can be found in Raleigh too.  I think there is a good chance it will land in Raleigh.   Raleigh is more like Northern Virginia than it is Atlanta ( I have been of course to all and lived in Northern Va) 

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59 minutes ago, KJHburg said:

^ Then it is really Raleigh's to lose and they just poking around Atlanta to get a better deal from NC.   Raleigh being closer to DC where they are now based may make your city the leading candidate.  Raleigh has had great success attracting tech companies expanding MetLife, Credit Suisse and more recently Infosys.  They know they will find the labor market here.  The only thing maybe in ATL's favor is their airport and just overall larger labor market.  However on the best list of place to live  and fasting growing cities with millenials and people in general Raleigh beats Atlanta.  It is easier to find 200K of office space in Atlanta but it can be found in Raleigh too.  I think there is a good chance it will land in Raleigh.   Raleigh is more like Northern Virginia than it is Atlanta ( I have been of course to all and lived in Northern Va) 

I agree with you and I like the impartiality in your comments. I can also see Raleigh being chosen for the reasons you pointed out.

Raleigh is one of the leading tech hubs on the east coast, and also has the lowest cost of living among the other tech hubs on the east coast. For this reason, as well as access to top talent and academics, this area will continue to attract tech companies and beat out many larger population competitors.

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7 hours ago, RALNATIVE said:

I agree with you and I like the impartiality in your comments. I can also see Raleigh being chosen for the reasons you pointed out.

Raleigh is one of the leading tech hubs on the east coast, and also has the lowest cost of living among the other tech hubs on the east coast. For this reason, as well as access to top talent and academics, this area will continue to attract tech companies and beat out many larger population competitors.

I do agree that Raleigh is a tech hub, has top talent, academics, and will continue to grow. But by percentage Atlanta is and has “more” in all those areas. Also, I think the fact that Raleigh is so close to DC is not in its favor. Why spend so much money to just move around in your neighborhood when you can see an even bigger impact by moving further south and to an even cheaper market? (I believe that Atlanta is a bit cheaper than Raleigh in most respects) 

But all and all, I would love to be proven wrong... :-)

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3 hours ago, DwnTwnRaleighGuy said:

I do agree that Raleigh is a tech hub, has top talent, academics, and will continue to grow. But by percentage Atlanta is and has “more” in all those areas.

You are very wrong in this respect. Your perception that Atlanta has "more" is not based in reality in this case.

Maybe Atlanta is the biggest city that you've ever visited and you're enamored by its southern grandeur, but make no mistake that Raleigh more than likely has the upper hand in this competition based on the concentration of tech assets in this area.

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As a former resident of Atlanta and a tech person myself, I see both sides of the discussion. I believe tech is a smaller percentage of the metro Atlanta economy than of the Triangle economy. However, in terms of absolute numbers of tech people, I believe Atlanta has more people assets in tech. As for universities, if you narrow the comparison to engineering, math, software, and hard science only -- and if you exclude pharma -- Georgia Tech  comes out ahead of NC State, UNC-CH, and Duke on both size and rankings. That's not true if you widen the field of study, of course.

Edited by ctl

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I agree Georgia Tech is top notch but tech is so much a bigger part of the economy of Raleigh than in Atlanta.  

it is things like this jobs study from Jan. that point to Raleigh being a better job  market than Atlanta 

https://wallethub.com/edu/best-cities-for-jobs/2173/

Atlanta vs Raleigh in tech job prospects both in the top 10 

https://www.usatoday.com/story/tech/2017/07/18/top-cities-tech-jobs-now-include-atlanta-and-toronto/484759001/

Of course a metro of over 5 million has bigger tech community than Raleigh but  the capital city can hold its own especially with its recent wins.  

and stuff like this makes tech people take notice

https://medium.com/@matthewsniff/why-i-moved-our-company-from-the-valley-to-the-triangle-b7d4df06d291

Edited by KJHburg

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