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I'm not buying that reasoning for one second. This is all one area fed by three universities' "knowledge" wise and supported by an international airport that the major regional units of government here all manage. Locating in RTP has always been one part cache and one part taxes. There is no special talent pool limited to a soulless stretch of spindly loblolly pines

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9 hours ago, Jones_ said:

I'm not buying that reasoning for one second. This is all one area fed by three universities' "knowledge" wise and supported by an international airport that the major regional units of government here all manage. Locating in RTP has always been one part cache and one part taxes. There is no special talent pool limited to a soulless stretch of spindly loblolly pines

A airport is not the only thing that drives RTP, it's the agglomeration of companies that coexist to create a engine of innovation. Without RTP, most outside NC, wouldn't know what Raleigh or the Triangle is. I'm proud of RTP and the economic prosperity it brings to the state. 

Edited by mpretori

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The Triangle would still be an economic backwater had it not been for RTP. I don't think there's any rational argument to the contrary. The relevant question now, however, is whether RTP will continue to grow or whether it will considered passé while some combination of DTR, downtown Durham, and more recent developments like North Hills and Weston get all the job growth.

For employers who want the maximum pull of job-seekers (north Wake, south Wake, west Wake, Raleigh ITB, Durham, Orange County, and increasingly Chatham County), RTP is still viable. You simply won't find as many people willing to trek from Orange County into DTR, for example.

There are people who like and can afford the DTR lifestyle, and there are people who dislike it or cannot afford it -- after all, only about 7% of the Triangle lives ITB Raleigh. Nothing is to be gained by besmirching the choice of a business or its employees to be in RTP vis-à-vis elsewhere. 

It's true that there are no municipal property taxes in RTP proper (although that's not true for the office complexes on the periphery of RTP, most of which have been annexed by Cary, Morrisville, or the city of Durham). On the other hand, there certainly are county property taxes. And the buyer of a parcel in RTP assumes numerous burdens -- buying more land than the business actually needs, a very long list of RTP Covenants, etc. One can argue about whether the tradeoffs are in the sweet spot, but the situation today is hardly one-sided.

Edited by ctl
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42 minutes ago, ctl said:

The Triangle would still be an economic backwater had it not been for RTP. I don't think there's any rational argument to the contrary. The relevant question now, however, is whether RTP will continue to grow or whether it will considered passé while some combination of DTR, downtown Durham, and more recent developments like North Hills and Weston get all the job growth.

For employers who want the maximum pull of job-seekers (north Wake, south Wake, west Wake, Raleigh ITB, Durham, Orange County, and increasingly Chatham County), RTP is still viable. You simply won't find as many people willing to trek from Orange County into DTR, for example.

There are people who like and can afford the DTR lifestyle, and there are people who dislike it or cannot afford it -- after all, only about 7% of the Triangle lives ITB Raleigh. Nothing is to be gained by besmirching the choice of a business or its employees to be in RTP vis-à-vis elsewhere. 

It's true that there are no municipal property taxes in RTP proper (although that's not true for the office complexes on the periphery of RTP, most of which have been annexed by Cary, Morrisville, or the city of Durham). On the other hand, there certainly are county property taxes. And the buyer of a parcel in RTP assumes numerous burdens -- buying more land than the business actually needs, a very long list of RTP Covenants, etc. One can argue about whether the tradeoffs are in the sweet spot, but the situation today is hardly one-sided.

Good points. I would say that the proposed master-plan for RTP is akin to north hills density mixed with silicon valley. One thing I would say is that RTP should aim for a headquarter and not a subsidiary. Also, we should be careful to not create many innovation hubs that spread far distances. "The majority of Venture Capital is invested within a one hour trip from investor offices."(Gompers and Lerner). I think if/when RTP becomes mixed use, you will see the area take off. Charlotte has  uptown at their economic engine, the triangle has RTP. 

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RTP will never be urban.  And that's okay.  That's why companies go there.  People like driving their cars and like parking at the front door and looking at trees out of windows (past the parking lots).  Yes, they are trying to have a central mixed use area and that will be nice for people to stop off the exit, get their coffee, get back in their car, and keep going to work.  And another place for people to drive to go get lunch too.  

Props for them trying to grow with the times, but an urban setting is just not feasible due to how spread out and car dependent it is.

 

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Correct. And although downtown SF, downtown SJ, and to a lesser extent Oakland have seen some employment increase as a result of high-tech, most of the SV jobs are still strung along the historic suburbs (Redwood City, Palo Alto, Mountain View, Sunnyvale, Los Altos, Santa Clara, Cupertino, etc). That's not changing, either. 

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On 7/8/2017 at 11:35 PM, mpretori said:

A airport is not the only thing that drives RTP, it's the agglomeration of companies that coexist to create a engine of innovation. Without RTP, most outside NC, wouldn't know what Raleigh or the Triangle is. I'm proud of RTP and the economic prosperity it brings to the state. 

My point is that it is not JUST RTP any longer. Sure "RTP" is what rings a bell for most people. The knowledge base is much more spread around than it was in the 1950's-1990's. RTP's eminent cache is not close to what it used to be, and is only being further diluted by the rise of the downtown.  Their plan to add a town center is sorely needed, by is obviously a kneejerk reaction to what I just said. 

Edited by Jones_

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Outside of NC, perhaps even within NC outside of the greater Triangle region, the terms "RTP" and "The Triangle" are basically synonymous, and have been for years.

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On 7/9/2017 at 10:35 AM, ctl said:

It's true that there are no municipal property taxes in RTP proper (although that's not true for the office complexes on the periphery of RTP, most of which have been annexed by Cary, Morrisville, or the city of Durham). On the other hand, there certainly are county property taxes. And the buyer of a parcel in RTP assumes numerous burdens -- buying more land than the business actually needs, a very long list of RTP Covenants, etc. One can argue about whether the tradeoffs are in the sweet spot, but the situation today is hardly one-sided.

The property tax in RTP is capped at 10 cents per $100. Compared to 66 cents in Durham County and 60.05 cents in Wake. 

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I was told it's a quid pro quo for being required to buy a lot more land than is necessary.

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I never did understand how the lot divisions worked over there. I assumed the large buffers were to keep all that secret science back away from prying eyes. But I don't know if the RTP board has the parcels already defined or how much say-so prospective tenants have in the size of their parcels. Given that the tax rate was set in 1986 it very well could be as you say. 

Edited by Jones_

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Supposedly there was a formula that tied square footage of floor space to acreage of raw land... enforced low density, in other words, to retain the "park" atmosphere. Clearly there was an exception for the bank-retail-office area now known as Park Center. BTW, Triangle Business Journal ran a paywall article last week that a new developer is being sought for the Park Center revitalization project announced with great hoopla in 2015. Clearly it hasn't been proceeding well.

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New building software company moving HQ to downtown Durham from Colorado after opening new plant in Mebane will bring up to 65 jobs. https://www.bizjournals.com/triangle/news/2017/07/12/prescient-moving-hq-from-denverto-durham.html?ana=e_trig_bn&u=oAaDx%2B74FoP4qOJ%2By4AU6dhJPpc&t=1499875884&j=78537201

About the Park Center redevelopment at the RTP from the Business Journal July 5 2017

Research Triangle Foundation, the managing nonprofit behind Research Triangle Park, has parted ways with Houston-based real estate developer Hines. It’s been working with Hines since 2012 on a much-talked-about revamp – an effort to urbanize the campus that houses top Triangle employers such as IBM, Cisco and NetApp. 

Liz Rooks, interim CEO, says the organization has put out another request for proposals and has received “a lot of interest” from developers – some local and some international.

“We’re in the middle of that process,” she says, adding it’s unclear if one or multiple developers will take on the project.    

 

I believe this will get done and the plans include apartments, retail, office space in a urban mixed use environment with some parks intermixed. 

 

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They should just give it to Kane Realty and be done with it.  He seems to be he only one in this area that can get things done within my life time:tw_grin:

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1 hour ago, unique1rdu said:

They should just give it to Kane Realty and be done with it.  He seems to be he only one in this area that can get things done within my life time:tw_grin:

I would think Kane is one of the local developers maybe East West Partners of Chapel Hill. They both like to do complicated projects when no one else can pull them off. 

More on the Prescient's move of corporate HQ to downtown Durham into 17,000 sq ft of office space. http://www.heraldsun.com/news/business/article160895249.html

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Raleigh Durham (this is the way JLL looks at the market)  is absorbing office space a fantastic clip in fact one of the best places in the USA. Even better than my city of Charlotte. 

JLL reports in the first half of the year Raleigh Durham absorbed 720,885 sq ft of space in a market of 47,335,000 sq ft of multitenant office space (does not include owner occupied space ) Raleigh Durham absorbed 1.5% in the first 6 months compared to national average of .2%   Raleigh Durham  absorbed more office space in the first half of 2017 than these LARGER markets: Atlanta (market of 134 million sq ft), Baltimore, Boston, Charlotte, Chicago, Detroit, Houston, Los Angeles, Minneapolis, New Jersey (view as one statewide market) Orange County CA, Philadelphia, Pittsburgh, Salt Lake City, San Diego, San Fran (76 million sq ft market) Silicon Valley and finally Washington DC (market of 327 million sq ft)   In terms of percentage of office space absorbed Raleigh Durham absorbed more than NYC as they absorbed .1%.    You can download the report here or look at their market recap on the webpage http://www.us.jll.com/united-states/en-us/research/property/office

The bottom line: new office towers and buildings will continue to be built in the Triangle more North Hills, downtown Glenwood South Raleigh, downtown Durham, RTP area, Cary etc. For NC to have two of the best performing office markets speaks to the strength of our state. 

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14 hours ago, KJHburg said:

I really hope this is coming downtown!

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44 minutes ago, Trent Y said:

I really hope this is coming downtown!

With all of the new towers planned for downtown, I think that it is inevitable that some of the announced (and to be announced) corporate moves will be to downtown.

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1 hour ago, KJHburg said:

Best high paying tech jobs those paying over $100k are concentrated in just 8 cities and including Raleigh and guess who has the lowest housing cost?  https://blogs.wsj.com/economics/2017/07/26/the-best-100000-tech-jobs-are-increasingly-concentrated-in-just-8-cities/

Here's the article if you don't have a subscription to WSJ:

http://www.cetusnews.com/business/The-Best-%24100-000%2B-Tech-Jobs-Are-Increasingly-Concentrated-in-Just-8-Cities.SkeEuAyI8Z.html

 

We should start referring to Seattle, San Francisco, San Jose, Austin, Raleigh, Washington, Baltimore and Boston as the "Big 8." If you take a deeper dive, you'll find that these cities are also typically found at the top of the "best cities" rankings which could also help explain why they are a draw for techies and millenials.

Edited by RALNATIVE

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More on the new Verizon independent retailer moving its HQ to Raleigh with 250 jobs.

https://www.bizjournals.com/triangle/news/2017/07/27/verizon-retailer-ceo-talks-decision-to-move-hq-to.html?ana=e_du_prem&s=article_du&ed=2017-07-27&u=oAaDx%2B74FoP4qOJ%2By4AU6dhJPpc&t=1501194835&j=78611421

Subscriber only article but below are highlights

"Sherman says he hopes to have a specific location announcement soon. He is evaluating options in north Raleigh, though no agreement has been signed. The goal is to move into a new space in November." and this "the jobs will have average salaries of $93,000."

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2 hours ago, KJHburg said:

More on the new Verizon independent retailer moving its HQ to Raleigh with 250 jobs.

https://www.bizjournals.com/triangle/news/2017/07/27/verizon-retailer-ceo-talks-decision-to-move-hq-to.html?ana=e_du_prem&s=article_du&ed=2017-07-27&u=oAaDx%2B74FoP4qOJ%2By4AU6dhJPpc&t=1501194835&j=78611421

Subscriber only article but below are highlights

"Sherman says he hopes to have a specific location announcement soon. He is evaluating options in north Raleigh, though no agreement has been signed. The goal is to move into a new space in November." and this "the jobs will have average salaries of $93,000."

North Raleigh as in Midtown? Besides North Hills where could he mean i wonder? And if they want to move in by November im not sure any of the office buildings in North Hills have space. Could be wrong. Tower 4 has a beautiful rendering and im sure is ready to break ground at the drop of a dime but it definitely won't be ready to accept tenants by November.

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14 hours ago, Trent Y said:

North Raleigh as in Midtown? Besides North Hills where could he mean i wonder? And if they want to move in by November im not sure any of the office buildings in North Hills have space. Could be wrong. Tower 4 has a beautiful rendering and im sure is ready to break ground at the drop of a dime but it definitely won't be ready to accept tenants by November.

I hope they don't go to these places, but Highwoods, the Forum on Six Forks and the whole stretch of Falls of Neuse from Wake Forest to Millbrook have some decent sized buildings that I would think rank as class A. 

Regarding affordability, certain neighborhoods are changing at record paces (I would imagine). The number of houses listed in east downtown (not Oakwood) over 400k is blowing my mind. I think the techies are driving this because A) those folks tend to prefer downtowns and B) I know some of them. Also the 4th Ward will be 100% gentrified in a year. The economic boom of the area being driven by an industry full of people of prefer downtown (or just a generation that prefers downtown) is/has fully enveloped ours. 

Edited by Jones_
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