Eola's "Evil?" Statue

[Boomer136]

The story so far:

http://m.orlandoweekly.com/Blogs/archives/2017/05/16/orlandos-confederate-statue-will-be-repaired-moved-from-lake-eola

[spenser1058]

I liked this approach suggested for Charlottesville by their mayor in the Washington Post. However, it looks like our ship has sailed and it seems a good compromise.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/posteverything/wp/2017/05/24/im-a-progressive-mayor-heres-why-i-voted-no-on-removing-my-citys-confederate-statue/?hpid=hp_no-name_opinion-card-c%3Ahomepage%2Fstory&utm_term=.37f4d33773f0

[bulldogger]

I work next the statue.  I have seen it for years and always wondered why it's there.  So much is made of the Confederate States when it only represented 6 years of history.  Should a 6 year span demand so much attention?  Especially when it went away.  Do we honor the history of the 18th Amendment with statues of broken kegs?  It lasted even longer.  If it truly was about history and not so much about white supremacy, then this blip in our radar wouldn't be so pronounced.  Move the thing next to the keg statue.</opinion>

[Dale]

Is it true that Mayor Buddy is going to make Winn-Dixie change its name ?

[JFW657]

1 hour ago, Dale said:

Is it true that Mayor Buddy is going to make Winn-Dixie change its name ?

Winn-Diversity... 

[spenser1058]

Whenever pondering issues like this, I always remember the words of one of our greatest Southern fictional heroes, Atticus Finch, in "To Kill A Mockingbird":

"You never really understand a person until you consider things from his point of view... Until you climb into his skin and walk around in it."

It was of course driven home to me as I made the journey from being a Southern WASP straight male (or so I wanted desperately to believe) to a gay one and the sometimes subtle, sometimes not differences in treatment as a result.

[jrs2]

On 5/11/2017 at 11:35 PM, nite owℓ said:

I have to disagree. It's not like the confederacy were fighting for a noble cause, despite many able bodied men being sent to fight a war in order to protect someone else's wealth under the guise of "state's rights". It's very easy to downplay beautiful relics of the past that affect the disenfranchised. As if Southern black descendants need a nice reminder when they go to Lake Eola park. Shall we leave the monument up at their expense? I wonder if people would make the same arguments if it were a memorial to honor the soldiers, sailors and statesmen of the SS? Maybe I don't want to know the answer...

Move it to a museum. Or the cemetery.

I totally disagree with you because what you are suggesting is a slippery slop.  If we get rid of relics and statues from our past for fear of reminding or offending people, then what's next, rewriting school history books and omitting that slaves existed in the US?

[Jernigan]

I don't get that perspective.   We have plenty of 9/11 memorials and i don't think any of them feature the hijackers 

[JFW657]

Good analogy.

[nite owℓ]

 

On 6/10/2017 at 2:07 PM, jrs2 said:

I totally disagree with you because what you are suggesting is a slippery slop.  If we get rid of relics and statues from our past for fear of reminding or offending people, then what's next, rewriting school history books and omitting that slaves existed in the US?

I'm not advocating the destruction of the statue, but I do support the Mayor's decision to move it to the cemetery. IMO, a musuem would be better suited as it would provide more of a clear context of the statue and it's symbolism without honoring Confederate soldiers. I would say that my immigration to this country gives me a different perspective as an outsider than most Americans, but that excuse does not explain your position.

 

On 6/10/2017 at 3:02 PM, Jernigan said:

I don't get that perspective.   We have plenty of 9/11 memorials and i don't think any of them feature the hijackers 

That's not even the same analogy. An equivalent would be a memorial dedicated to the honor the hijackers and the ideology that they died for - complete with sympathizers trying to rationalize the actions of the hijackers.

Even Germany has the decency to be sensitive about WWII memorials... and at the very least most people do not support or tolerate memorials dedicated to honor the men fighting in the Nazi SS. Understandably Jewish people (and most people in general, myself included) would speak out in opposition if that were to ever happen, and rightly so.

Confederate memorials are meant to honor those who died fighting for the Confederacy. I'm not sure why there's any confusion push-back or "gray areas" about what the confederacy stood for. The Confederate Vice President Alexander Stephens delivered the Cornerstone Speech which pretty much spells out the beliefs of the Confederacy and is worth reading for anyone with a fuzzy memory. A snippet from the speech:

"Our new government is founded upon exactly [this] idea; its foundations are laid, its corner-stone rests, upon the great truth that the negro is not equal to the white man; that slavery subordination to the superior race, is his natural and normal condition. This, our new government, is the first, in the history of the world, based upon this great physical, philosophical, and moral truth."

The statue should be moved to a location that provides context (e.g. a museum). As it stands, the statue and it's location are intended to honor Confederate soldiers who were not fighting for a noble cause which is IMO a complete disregard for the feelings of Southern blacks who are direct descendants of those who experienced slavery, Jim Crow, segregation and racism. Again, most people don't try to justify offensive memorials to Jewish people and they shouldn't do it to black people either.

 

[jrs2]

2 hours ago, nite owℓ said:

I'm not advocating the destruction of the statue, but I do support the Mayor's decision to move it to the cemetery. IMO, a musuem would be better suited as it would provide more of a clear context of the statue and it's symbolism without honoring Confederate soldiers. I would say that my immigration to this country gives me a different perspective as an outsider than most Americans, but that excuse does not explain your position.

What does you being an immigrant have to do with my position?  Museum? Fine.  

[John Hargrove]

17 minutes ago, jrs2 said:

What does you being an immigrant have to do with my position?  Museum? Fine.  

That's not what was said. He/she was explaining his/her own perspective and possible biases, while pointing out that those biases aren't the sole explanation for their beliefs. In other words, you needn't be an immigrant to believe those things, and that they should be self-evident to anyone who thinks about it plenty.

3 hours ago, nite owℓ said:

This, our new government, is the first, in the history of the world, based upon this great physical, philosophical, and moral truth.

Amusing that they thought this was an original idea. Absolute willful ignorance to the whole of human history. 

[aent]

3 hours ago, nite owℓ said:

 

I'm not advocating the destruction of the statue, but I do support the Mayor's decision to move it to the cemetery. IMO, a musuem would be better suited as it would provide more of a clear context of the statue and it's symbolism without honoring Confederate soldiers. I would say that my immigration to this country gives me a different perspective as an outsider than most Americans, but that excuse does not explain your position.

 

That's not even the same analogy. An equivalent would be a memorial dedicated to the honor the hijackers and the ideology that they died for - complete with sympathizers trying to rationalize the actions of the hijackers.

Even Germany has the decency to be sensitive about WWII memorials... and at the very least most people do not support or tolerate memorials dedicated to honor the men fighting in the Nazi SS. Understandably Jewish people (and most people in general, myself included) would speak out in opposition if that were to ever happen, and rightly so.

Confederate memorials are meant to honor those who died fighting for the Confederacy. I'm not sure why there's any confusion push-back or "gray areas" about what the confederacy stood for. The Confederate Vice President Alexander Stephens delivered the Cornerstone Speech which pretty much spells out the beliefs of the Confederacy and is worth reading for anyone with a fuzzy memory. A snippet from the speech:

"Our new government is founded upon exactly [this] idea; its foundations are laid, its corner-stone rests, upon the great truth that the negro is not equal to the white man; that slavery subordination to the superior race, is his natural and normal condition. This, our new government, is the first, in the history of the world, based upon this great physical, philosophical, and moral truth."

The statue should be moved to a location that provides context (e.g. a museum). As it stands, the statue and it's location are intended to honor Confederate soldiers who were not fighting for a noble cause which is IMO a complete disregard for the feelings of Southern blacks who are direct descendants of those who experienced slavery, Jim Crow, segregation and racism. Again, most people don't try to justify offensive memorials to Jewish people and they shouldn't do it to black people either.

 

I personally don't like this topic (as I feel much of this is a result of our current PC culture where people are just trying to be so sensitive to anything, we didn't have an issue with the same statues 10-20 years ago), but I will say comparing it to Nazi Germany isn't really comparable... the goals of either side were not to kill innocent civilians and make a "perfect race", and a huge argument by those who still want to honor the confederate soldiers is that it was not about slavery, it was about state's rights, and political control, as the entire south felt it lost all influence in the US government, and regardless of the outcome of the war, many do believe it helped states rights which is still very important to this country. Racism was rampant in the north as well, and the reasoning for the north being against slavery was that slaves eliminated white jobs (hey, now we have a fear of self driving cars and robots taking our jobs and many want them banned for that reason). Infact, they weren't so much against slavery as they were the expansion of slavery into new areas, as they wanted to make their jobs secure. The whole thing was, realistically, an economic issue of whats better, nothing to do with equality or morals. And both sides were, realistically, Americans who died, so with all that in mind, its apparent that the fact that someone doesn't want to remove our statutes commemorating that time period doesn't quite mean they're a racist... or Anti-American, or anything else.

[jrs2]

^^

My question is how many African Americans themselves are or were part of a movement to have that statue removed?

[spenser1058]

Bungalower takes a look at the area of Greenwood Cemetery where the statue will reside. It really is a fitting spot. Great story and photos, Brendan!

http://bungalower.com/2017/06/13/photo-tour-confederate-section-greenwood-cemetery/

[jack]

On 6/13/2017 at 11:58 AM, jrs2 said:

^^

My question is how many African Americans themselves are or were part of a movement to have that statue removed?

It is probably better to have white people fight this fight. The image of black people arguing with confederate sympathizers does not sit well with me. 

[jrs2]

3 hours ago, jack said:

It is probably better to have white people fight this fight. The image of black people arguing with confederate sympathizers does not sit well with me. 

Well, I just don't think there are many if any Confederate sympathizers in City Hall.  And I don't think many if any African Americans living in Orlando even care.  I just get weary of the typical, as Jeremy Piven stated in PCU, "cause-heads" who back causes that don't have anything to do with them directly.  It just gets old.  It's like going up to a beehive and shaking it; now everyone's pissed, but before that, no-one even cared... except for the cause-heads.  And it's all party-affiliated stuff too and that gets old.

[spenser1058]

While difficult to quantify (and I'm uncertain why it matters), I do know that Dave Porter, the former Sentinel columnist who led the most recent move for the change, is African-American.

[Dale]

For the sake of consistency, I can only imagine that City Hall refused to celebrate Memorial Day. It originated as a Confederate holiday.

[spenser1058]

Actually, Confederate Memorial Day in Florida is observed on the fourth Monday of April. While not much celebrated hereabouts (should we blame the League of the South for falling down on the job?), I remember it being noted when I worked for the Florida Senate.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confederate_Memorial_Day

 

[bulldogger]

And the statue is down and loaded on a flatbed.

[nite owℓ]

They are still dismantling the base - WFTV has been streaming live feed. A helicopter has been steadily hovering over downtown since 8AM - I knew something was up.

Sarabeth Ackerman @ WFTV reports a timecapsule was found inside of the Confederate statue. It has been transported to city hall.

While it's a little bittersweet to see the statue go (I'm a fan of historic things, but abhor the tenets of the Confederacy), I hope the removal and relocation is something that has appeased all sides. Whatever statue/public art takes it's place should symbolize unity. After everything Orlando has endured, it would be nice to see our city expand upon Orlando United theme so that everyone feels welcome.

[popsiclebrandon]

OPD seemed to think this was going to be some huge issue, they have like 20 cops out there bored out of their minds because no one cares.

I guess it is a better use of their time than getting local athletes out of DUIs though.

[spenser1058]

5 minutes ago, popsiclebrandon said:

OPD seemed to think this was going to be some huge issue, they have like 20 cops out there bored out of their minds because no one cares.

I guess it is a better use of their time than getting local athletes out of DUIs though.

I guess caution is the safer course, given N'awlins had to take their statues down late at night and the workers were wearing masks to cover their identities to prevent retaliation.  Truly sad and I'm glad we had a more peaceful response.

[Jernigan]

So long, farewell...any word on what will take its place?