Political Digression Thread -- Save UP! Move the politically focused stuff here

[kermit]

56 minutes ago, cjd5050 said:

For example, do you consider a police officer being killed in an ambush domestic terrorism from the radical left?  Just where do you assign the 49 dead in Orlando?  What about the 15,000+ other murders in the US?   Do you consider gangs domestic terrorists?  

I am asking these questions not to deflect but to better understand your position.  

My perspective on terrorism is that it is violence driven by a desire to make a political or religious statement.  

I can't believe I am debating with people who think that the kkk and nazis deserve to be part of contemporary public discourse. 

Edited August 14, 2017 by kermit

[nonillogical]

1 hour ago, Dale said:

What happened in Charlottesville is lamentable. Larger view: identity liberals are shocked and outraged that a few angry white males are demanding a place at the table.

Ignoring the attempt at making liberal a shameful word, yes, I am shocked and outraged that a violent white supremacist gathering of this scale occurred in 2017, took a life, assaulted others, appears to have the tacit support of a surprisingly significant chunk of the population, and our president had to be dragged out by the ear after 2 days to look at his shoes and half-heartedly condemn a homegrown terrorist attack. 

Those "few angry white males" are actually a collection of organized and semi-organized hate groups whose very mission statements clearly state they don't "want a seat at the table", they want the table. 

 

 

[cjd5050]

50 minutes ago, kermit said:

My perspective on terrorism is that it is violence driven by a desire to make a political or religious statement.  

I can't believe I am debating with people who think that the kkk and nazis deserve to be part of contemporary public discourse. 

2

Who are you debating that think the KKK and Nazis deserve to be a part of the public discourse?  Not everything to the right of your perspective is the KKK and Nazis.  I know it is common to claim that position ground but it's pathetic to do so.  I thought we were talking about the dangerous extremists and murders.  

I am glad we can agree that violence driven by politics and religion is wrong and those deaths are horrible.  It would also be nice to talk about the other 98% or 14,700 people who are killed each year but sadly talking about those issues is racist.  I guess those lives don't matter.  

[kermit]

17 minutes ago, cjd5050 said:

Who are you debating that think the KKK and Nazis deserve to be a part of the public discourse?

you and Dale who have been saying all day ignoring the historical baggage attached to this symbology and insisting that the homicidal behavior of these guys is no worse than the actions of those on the left.

I really don't think these guys are "just asking for a seat at the table."

 

Edited August 14, 2017 by kermit

[cjd5050]

40 minutes ago, kermit said:

you and Dale who have been saying all day ignoring the historical baggage attached to this symbology and insisting that the homicidal behavior of these guys is no worse than the actions of those on the left.

 

 

 

Don't put words into my mouth.   All I have been saying is there is evil on both sides.  You talk about 300 murders but ignore the 14,700.  You don't have the courage to show condemnation outside of a small faction of the problem.  I want to talk about and solve the problems behind all 15,000.

Those people in the picture need to be eradicated.  I have no problem saying that.  I also don't have a problem saying we would be better off exterminating every gang member.  I don't also don't have an issue in talking about the elimination of Antifa and BLM.  I don't have a problem in saying that all religion is an issue.  All religion from those waging a jihad to the bible thumper next door.  It's all connected and it's all a problem.  

But some of these groups and the issues they have are uncomfortable for many to discuss at best and not allowed to even mention by many.  You can't even try to discuss these issues now without being called a racist or a nazi or whatever buzz term small minds lean on to try and shut down conversations that they can't keep up with.  They only have the spine to talk about just enough to make them feel like they are making a difference and just enough to get that oh so sweet self-righteous condemnation buzz.  

But you're right, those scumbags are not just asking for a seat at the table.  They are the extreme end of a spectrum.  Every group has that extreme end.  Every. Single. One.  

Why people can't talk about or accept this truth is beyond me but until we are able to talk about all evil....nothing is going to change.  

 

Edited August 14, 2017 by cjd5050

[kermit]

5 minutes ago, cjd5050 said:

All I have been saying is there is evil on both sides. 

 and this is our fundamental point of disagreement. I believe there is a hell of a lot more evil on the side of the radical right. 

http://foreignpolicy.com/2017/08/14/fbi-and-dhs-warned-of-growing-threat-from-white-supremacists-months-ago/

[cjd5050]

12 minutes ago, kermit said:

 and this is our fundamental point of disagreement. I believe there is a hell of a lot more evil on the side of the radical right. 

http://foreignpolicy.com/2017/08/14/fbi-and-dhs-warned-of-growing-threat-from-white-supremacists-months-ago/

 

Ya.  It's where we disagree.  You want to blow up the 2% and ignore the 98%.  I have been to funerals for the other 98% so it's a little bit more than being a keyboard warrior and social media crusader for me.  

Maybe we could find some middle ground and come up with a hashtag?  That always does something, right?  Or how about we change or profile pictures?  Then we can all feel good.

 

[southslider]

#theyseemetrollin

 

 

[nonillogical]

1 hour ago, cjd5050 said:

 

Don't put words into my mouth.   All I have been saying is there is evil on both sides.  You talk about 300 murders but ignore the 14,700.  You don't have the courage to show condemnation outside of a small faction of the problem.  I want to talk about and solve the problems behind all 15,000.

Those people in the picture need to be eradicated.  I have no problem saying that.  I also don't have a problem saying we would be better off exterminating every gang member.  I don't also don't have an issue in talking about the elimination of Antifa and BLM.  I don't have a problem in saying that all religion is an issue.  All religion from those waging a jihad to the bible thumper next door.  It's all connected and it's all a problem.  

But some of these groups and the issues they have are uncomfortable for many to discuss at best and not allowed to even mention by many.  You can't even try to discuss these issues now without being called a racist or a nazi or whatever buzz term small minds lean on to try and shut down conversations that they can't keep up with.  They only have the spine to talk about just enough to make them feel like they are making a difference and just enough to get that oh so sweet self-righteous condemnation buzz.  

But you're right, those scumbags are not just asking for a seat at the table.  They are the extreme end of a spectrum.  Every group has that extreme end.  Every. Single. One.  

Why people can't talk about or accept this truth is beyond me but until we are able to talk about all evil....nothing is going to change.  

 

I get that you're trying to have a bigger discussion about violent crime in general, but when the rest of us are talking specifically about radicalization and the emboldened far-right groups representing a rising threat, it comes across as you trying to sweep its significance under the rug by burying it in bigger numbers. I don't think the violent actions of organized groups with a mission to establish racial supremacy have all that much to do with the violent actions of gang members killing for territory, junkies killing for money, spouses killing for jealousy, and the litany of other reasons murders occur (not to mention by talking about "sides" before going into those number differentials you seem to be making some heavy implications). It goes without saying we condemn all murder and should seek to address the all factors that lead to it, but when there is one specific facet, an organized one that has reared its head high in this political climate and made international headlines in the last few days, don't act like we're crazy or morally selective for focusing on it for a moment. Whataboutism is usually a diversion tactic, not an earnest plea to right more wrongs. 

[Dale]

2 hours ago, kermit said:

you and Dale who have been saying all day ignoring the historical baggage attached to this symbology and insisting that the homicidal behavior of these guys is no worse than the actions of those on the left.

I really don't think these guys are "just asking for a seat at the table."

 

Why would it be worse than the actions of the left ? Hell, the left pretty much invented violence.

[kermit]

3 minutes ago, Dale said:

Why would it be worse than the actions of the left ? Hell, the left pretty much invented violence.

was the left saluting a movement that was responsible for murdering 9 million people yesterday?

The day before that?

The day before that?

[Dale]

4 minutes ago, kermit said:

was the left saluting a movement that was responsible for murdering 9 million people yesterday?

The day before that?

The day before that?

Well, the movement that was responsible for murdering 9 million people was leftist. And it wasn't remotely close to being the most murderous leftist regime in history.

[15895]

16 minutes ago, Dale said:

Well, the movement that was responsible for murdering 9 million people was leftist. And it wasn't remotely close to being the most murderous leftist regime in history.

The Nazi's/fascist are far right. The Communist are far left. 

 

I'm still confused why a small minority of Americans have trouble denouncing White supremacist at a Nazi rally with terrorist who drive cars into people.

Why does it matter what the Democrats do? That doesn't justify being pro-Nazi believing the extermination of "inferior" races. Next time a Jihadist plows a vehicle through a group of Americans, you'll be sympathetic towards them and say "well.... Liberals are worse! I expect Democrats also condemn antifa & BLM!" 

Edited August 15, 2017 by AirNostrumMAD

[Dale]

7 minutes ago, AirNostrumMAD said:

The Nazi's/fascist are far right. The Communist are far left. 

 

I'm still confused why a small minority of Americans have trouble denouncing White supremacist at a Nazi rally with terrorist who drive cars into people.

Why does it matter what the Democrats do? That doesn't justify being pro-Nazi believing the extermination of "inferior" races. Next time a Jihadist plows a vehicle through a group of Americans, you'll be sympathetic towards them and say "well.... Liberals are worse! I expect Democrats also condemn antifa & BLM!" 

Nazi is an acronym for National Socialist Worker's Party. Notice that you can't spell Nazi without socialist and workers.

[Dale]

5 minutes ago, Dale said:

Neo-Nazis, Antifa, BLM, all leftists. I detest them all.

 

[kermit]

37 minutes ago, Dale said:

Well, the movement that was responsible for murdering 9 million people was leftist. And it wasn't remotely close to being the most murderous leftist regime in history.

please tell us how this distinction makes it OK for these guys to reference genocide in a public protest? Does it somehow excuse the radical conservative terrorism from yesterday as well?

[Dale]

15 minutes ago, kermit said:

please tell us how this distinction makes it OK for these guys to reference genocide in a public protest? Does it somehow excuse the radical conservative terrorism from yesterday as well?

That's what I'm trying to tell you. There is no radical conservative terrorism. It's leftists needing a right-wing bad guy.

[kermit]

2 minutes ago, Dale said:

That's what I'm trying to tell you. There is no radical conservative terrorism. It's leftists needing a right-wing bad guy.

so the murder yesterday was fake news? All staged like the moon landing?

[Dale]

2 minutes ago, kermit said:

so the murder yesterday was fake news? All staged like the moon landing?

I'm saying that Naziism is leftist.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[kermit]

1 minute ago, Dale said:

I'm saying that Naziism is leftist.

I think these dudes would disagree with you

Edited August 15, 2017 by kermit

[Dale]

3 minutes ago, kermit said:

I think these dudes would disagree with you

Are you missing my posts ? Hitler was a leftist. Hitler, Stalin, Mao, Pol Pot, Marquis de Sade, peas in a pod.

[15895]

48 minutes ago, Dale said:

Nazi is an acronym for National Socialist Worker's Party. Notice that you can't spell Nazi without socialist and workers.

You're wrong. The Nazi party was a far right party.....

 

Fascism is far right... 

1 minute ago, Dale said:

Are you missing my posts ? Hitler was a leftist. Hitler, Stalin, Mao, Pol Pot, Marquis de Sade, peas in a pod.

Hitler was far right. Stalin was far left. 

 

[Dale]

1 minute ago, AirNostrumMAD said:

You're wrong. The Nazi party was a far right party.....

 

Fascism is far right... 

Hitler was far right. Stalin was far left. 

 

Based on the inane argument that because Hitler and Stalin were sworn enemies that one had to be left and the other right.

This is getting fishier by the minute. Jesse Kessler, organizer of the so-called Unite the Right was an Obama supporter and an Occupy Wall Street activist until Trump won the presidency.

[kermit]

Just now, Dale said:

Are you missing my posts ? Hitler was a leftist. Hitler, Stalin, Mao, Pol Pot, Marquis de Sade, peas in a pod.

are you missing mine? I don't give a crap what motivated the protestors in Charlottesville. These people are terrorists and thus should not be negotiated with.

[Dale]

17 minutes ago, kermit said:

are you missing mine? I don't give a crap what motivated the protestors in Charlottesville. These people are terrorists and thus should not be negotiated with.

Stop wrapping yourself in the flag. You sound like a John Bircher.