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      WARNING!   07/26/16

      By reading or participating in the Coffee House forum, you are acknowledging that some topics may be highly controversial in nature. While we make every attempt to ensure that no one and no groups are offended as a result of discussions contained within, we unfortunately can make no guarantees. Participate in threads contained within this forum at your own risk.
kermit

Political Digression Thread -- Save UP! Move the politically focused stuff here

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2 minutes ago, Dale said:

Stop wrapping yourself in the flag. You sound like a John Bircher.

Stop dissembling the violent acts of fascists. You sound like a republican in 1940.

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4 minutes ago, kermit said:

Stop dissembling the violent acts of fascists. You sound like a republican in 1940.

Oh, for more 1940's Republicans. They opposed the fascism and cult-of-personality of FDR and his catastrophic war.

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11 hours ago, nonillogical said:

I get that you're trying to have a bigger discussion about violent crime in general, but when the rest of us are talking specifically about radicalization and the emboldened far-right groups representing a rising threat, it comes across as you trying to sweep its significance under the rug by burying it in bigger numbers.

 

 

It's just topical is my point.  3 months ago everyone was a die hard Transgender activist.  Last September everyone was a BLM supporter and anti-police.  The outrange de jour is Nazis.  It would be more important if it wasn't so predictable.  

It's pretty sad how people are manipulated.  Take for example the event in Durham last night where a Confederate soldier statue was torn down.  At face value that's one thing but the backing of the event was a bunch of socialist groups like the Workers World Party Durham, anchists like Antifa and racist groups like BLM.  What's really interesting is the group was chanting 'No Cops,  No KKK! No fascist USA!” and it was reported as such for a while but it's been changed to "No Trump! No fascist USA!” in the press while you can clearly hear No Cops.  

A reporter is making up lies.  When I read the Observer this moring around 6am the post by Virginia Bridges from Durham said 'No Cops,  No KKK! No fascist USA!” but it has since been changed to "No Trump! No fascist USA!”.  Even though you can clearly hear No Cops in the video.

This story was published on the http://www.heraldsun.com/, http://www.newsobserver.com/ and http://www.charlotteobserver.com/ and it's a lie. A complete fabrication.  The LA Times has the correct quote.  

So why is that?  Why would the media change No Cops to No Trump?   Why is this important?  

There is an undercurrent regardless if you want to see it or ignore it. But carry on with your meaningless and predictable conversation if it makes you feel better.   Some people need the comfort of a small box that they can reach the walls in the dark.

 

 

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screencapture-latimes-nation-la-na-charlottesville-causes-20170814-story-html-1502796785992.png

Edited by cjd5050
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The anti-cop language is being cleaned up because BLM is one of the more photogenic and less truly radical sides of the left. Anti-cop rhetoric is unpopular with most people. Class-oriented points like "incomes have stagnated for the middle class for forty years" and "Google probably pays a lower tax rate than you" are far more popular, but far less acceptable to the "mainstream" of political discourse (the Clinton left, "centrists").

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Here is a sourced fact check from the NYT comparing rates and types of violence from the far right and far left:

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/08/15/us/politics/trump-alt-left-fact-check.html?smid=tw-share

Quote

White nationalists; militia movements; anti-Muslim attackers; I.R.S. building and abortion clinic bombers; and other right-wing groups were responsible for 12 times as many fatalities and 36 times as many injuries as communists; socialists; animal rights and environmental activists; anti-white- and Black Lives Matter-inspired attackers; and other left-wing groups.

Of the nearly 1,500 individuals in a University of Maryland study of radicalization from 1948 to 2013, 43 percent espoused far-right ideologies, compared to 21 percent for the far left. Far-right individuals were more likely to commit violence against people, while those on the far left were more likely to commit property damage.

proclamations of the New York Times being fake news will commence in 3...2...1...

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8 hours ago, kermit said:

Here is a sourced fact check from the NYT comparing rates and types of violence from the far right and far left:

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/08/15/us/politics/trump-alt-left-fact-check.html?smid=tw-share

proclamations of the New York Times being fake news will commence in 3...2...1...

 

 

I am not sure who you are arguing with that there is not a violent faction of the right.  I can see lots of virtue signaling going on but I don't see anyone trying to counter that point.  

The original point I made was that a violent and radical faction exists on both sides of the political spectrum TODAY.  I have also made comments that the country is being torn apart at the seams by these two sides.  

You, on the other hand, have seemed to change your position.  It went from not even seeing any comparison between the two sides to now sourcing an article in the NYT that says they are comparable but the the 43% to 21% radicalization rate is a huge difference.  

I'll give you that a 43% to 21% swing is huge but here is there is a problem with the data.  I am not sure how you or reporters for the NYT like to 'science' but I like to use data that supports my conclusion.  

Did you by chance find it interesting that the 'sourced fact check' data as you put it ranged from 1948 to 2013 was used to determine the violence level of Black Lives Matter?  I did and the reason is Black Lives Matter was founded in the summer of 2013.  

Did you by chance find it interesting that when the reporter talked about the left and the right she breezed over the fact that in the last 25 years Islamist plots eclipsed both the far-left and far-right?  I did.   I am interested in ending the radical aspects of all sides.  This includes the far-right, far-left and jihadi groups.  Sadly, I think I am in the minority as many just want to focus on the far-right because that suits their political views and allows for a more comfortable perch to signal those oh so sweet virtues.  

Do you remember your unsourced comment that "the radical right kills around 300 Americans per year in domestic terrorist attacks"?  I do.  I actually went and looked for the source which was a  report from 2012.  I then went and read the entire report.  Did you read the report or did you just pull the stat from the PBS New Hour Article and run with it?  What I found interesting in the report was how they compared the violence rate of groups against who was in authority and the conclusion was a noticeable trend of an uptick when the opposite side of the political spectrum was in power.  Would be really interesting to look at current data...I could dig deeper here but I think you get the point.  Or maybe not.

Here is what makes me sad and you be the judge if this applies to you or not.  I am coming to the realization that people are not really in favor of ending violence, oppression or the wrongs against others.  At least beyond some empty comments online or on social media.  Instead, I find that they are in favor of using this sad reality as a tool to drive people further apart and to suppress an entire spectrum of people based on the actions of the small, radical and loosely associated factions of it, while at the same time, ignoring the destruction by factions closer to home.  I find this both sad and disgusting.  

I wish we could have a conversation that all radicals, FULL STOP, need to be ended.  To each their own.  

 

 

Edited by cjd5050
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18 hours ago, Neo said:

This is an open thread that is obviously optional to participate in. Having said that though, for anyone defending the KKK, Nazi's, white supremacy, etc you can get the hell out of here as I do not want you on this site. You be the judge if this applies to you or not, but to clarify, UP stands for diversity and equality for everyone...opposing those core values means that you need to find somewhere else to post.

You have every right to support a double standard. But, you should not eliminate differing view to those that don't violate board rules.  Do  you welcome, BLM, BLack Panthers, white anti-Trump anarchists and other anti-white and anti-Trump groups to participate with their views? It seems odd that you contend to  "stand for diversity and equality for everyone."  It so, it shouldn't matter what group one belongs to as long as they are civil.  Nobody should not be eliminated as long as their comments are civil and non-threatening regardless and as long as they pertain to the topic. If you are the monitor, I am shocked that you would dare tell others that if they don't make comments that suit you, "get the hell out of here as I don not want you on this site."  Perhaps, you should be turn your position over to someone that is mor open minded.  Sorry that you would stoop to this level. 

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4 minutes ago, caterpillar2 said:

You have every right to support a double standard. But, you should not eliminate differing view to those that don't violate board rules.  Do  you welcome, BLM, BLack Panthers, white anti-Trump anarchists and other anti-white and anti-Trump groups to participate with their views? It seems odd that you contend to  "stand for diversity and equality for everyone."  It so, it shouldn't matter what group one belongs to as long as they are civil.  Nobody should not be eliminated as long as their comments are civil and non-threatening regardless and as long as they pertain to the topic. If you are the monitor, I am shocked that you would dare tell others that if they don't make comments that suit you, "get the hell out of here as I don not want you on this site."  Perhaps, you should be turn your position over to someone that is mor open minded.  Sorry that you would stoop to this level. 

You did not misread my comments and there is no double standard. Being pro Trump (for example) is most definitely not the same as defending the KKK, Nazi's, white supremacy, etc. I quite literally and frankly mean what I said...if you support those ideals then you can get the hell off of this site as you are not welcome by me or other members of this diverse board.

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1 hour ago, Dale said:

I saw where Democrats pulled down statutes of Democrats in Durham.

True, because the parties changed. New England used to be as reliably Republican, as much as the Carolinas were Democratic.

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1 hour ago, cjd5050 said:

[a big wall of text]

One group is advocating for an "ethnically pure America" and views murdering people as a valid means of achieving this goal.

The other group is advocating for fewer people to be murdered.

I am done entertaining the notion that the two groups are somehow similar

Edited by kermit
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19 minutes ago, Neo said:

You did not misread my comments and there is no double standard. Being pro Trump (for example) is most definitely not the same as defending the KKK, Nazi's, white supremacy, etc. I quite literally and frankly mean what I said...if you support those ideals then you can get the hell off of this site as you are not welcome by me or other members of this diverse board.

Does this mean that if those with comments support the ideals for which you disapprove, they will be banned? My family is Jewish but do not hate people that are anti-Jewish. People often  have reasons for their prejudices. It is more beneficial to understand them than to work to resolve, not bannish. I believe that in the case of this demonstration the demonstration that included the KKK was in protest of the double standard that is quite obvious in the U.S. For example, your obvious hate for radical right wing whites. I don't understand why radical left wingers are not included in your statement. That is all I have to say except that you should take a more intellectual, mature attitude.  I am finished commenting on this topic and hope that you have the decency to not ban me for using my right to freedom of speech since I broke no rules. 

Edited by caterpillar2

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2 minutes ago, caterpillar2 said:

Does this mean that if those with comments support the ideals for which you disapprove, they will be banned? My family is Jewish but do not hate people that are anti-Jewish. People often  have reasons for their prejudices. It is more beneficial to understand them than to work to resolve, not bannish. I believe that in the case of this demonstration the demonstration that included the KKK was in protest of the double standard that is quite obvious in the U.S. For example, your obvious hate for radical right wing whites. I don't understand why radical left wingers are not included in your statement. That is all I have to say except that you should take a more intellectual, mature attitude.  I am finished commenting on this topic and hope that you have the decency to not ban me for using my right to freedom of speech since I broke no rules. 

I think you are reading too much into this...if you support the KKK, Nazi's, and other white supremacist groups then I absolutely do not want you on this site. Having said that, it appears by your replies that this does apply to you unless you state otherwise. Are you saying that you are supporting and defending this? If so, then yes, I do want you off this site and any posts that back those groups will be removed. We absolutely do not promote that kind of hate on this site and I will not give you any vehicle to voice such hate. I don't care if you are jewish, a Trump supporter, or a Bernie supporter...if you come to this site to spew a white supremacist agenda then you are wasting your time as I will remove it.

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2 minutes ago, Neo said:

I think you are reading too much into this...if you support the KKK, Nazi's, and other white supremacist groups then I absolutely do not want you on this site. Having said that, it appears by your replies that this does apply to you unless you state otherwise. Are you saying that you are supporting and defending this? If so, then yes, I do want you off this site and any posts that back those groups will be removed. We absolutely do not promote that kind of hate on this site and I will not give you any vehicle to voice such hate. I don't care if you are jewish, a Trump supporter, or a Bernie supporter...if you come to this site to spew a white supremacist agenda then you are wasting your time as I will remove it.

I understand that having one on this board "spewing" white supremacy is not Kosher. It seems as if you would make a more general comment that if "anyone" (regardless of party or organizational  affiliations) spewing racial hatred towards any race (including white) will be removed. The aforementioned groups weren't the only violent, bad ones.  Best wishes. 

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1 minute ago, caterpillar2 said:

I understand that having one on this board "spewing" white supremacy is not Kosher. It seems as if you would make a more general comment that if "anyone" (regardless of party or organizational  affiliations) spewing racial hatred towards any race (including white) will be removed. The aforementioned groups weren't the only violent, bad ones.  Best wishes. 

I've made myself clear.

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I condemn hate groups like the KKK, Antifa and BLM equally. Not my circus, not my monkeys. The problem is that some, perhaps most on this board are shaped by the dominant media narrative which dictates that the hatred and violence of some groups must be whitewashed in order to maintain the focus on other groups. Case in point, from an article by Ben Shapiro on Charlottesville ...

Sheryl Gay Stolberg of The New York Times tweeted in the midst of the violence, "The hard left seemed as hate-filled as alt-right. I saw club-wielding 'antifa' beating white nationalists being led out of the park." After receiving blowback from the left, Stolberg then corrected herself. She said: "Rethinking this. Should have said violent, not hate-filled. They were standing up to hate."

 

 

 

 

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7 minutes ago, Dale said:

The problem is that some, perhaps most on this board are shaped by the dominant media narrative which dictates that ....

That is certainly a possibility.

But I gotta ask, what makes you confident that you are not being shaped and manipulated by an alternative media?

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Thanks CJD, dale, and pillar. Good to know there are still open mined people in the world. And I have yet to read one post where someone stated they support the Klan, or Natzis or any hate group...lol

All that talk is Fake News

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4 minutes ago, kermit said:

That is certainly a possibility.

But I gotta ask, what makes you confident that you are not being shaped and manipulated by an alternative media?

Do you think I am for condemning all as bad actors ? Am I being too hard on certain groups ?

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Just now, Dale said:

Do you think I am for condemning all as bad actors ? Am I being too hard on certain groups ?

You just condemned "most" of us as being puppets of the MSM.

how do you know you are not the one getting his strings pulled?

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4 minutes ago, kermit said:

You just condemned "most" of us as being puppets of the MSM.

how do you know you are not the one getting his strings pulled?

Again I ask you, is there something incongruous about my condemning KKK, Antifa and BLM across the board ?

BTW, I'm waiting for the statue of Lenin in Seattle to be torn down. Should I hold my breath ?

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1 minute ago, Dale said:

Again I ask you, is there something incongruous about my condemning KKK, Antifa and BLM across the board ?

Is there something incongruous about us condemning some more than others?

what gives you confidence that your perspective is the most reflective of reality?

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4 minutes ago, kermit said:

Is there something incongruous about us condemning some more than others?

what gives you confidence that your perspective is the most reflective of reality?

Well, here's the reality: to date, one murder is being attributed to the alt-right. As of a year ago (may have increased since) 11 cops murdered and 9 wounded were being attributed to BLM. Did I miss where you've open a can of whoop-ass on BLM ?

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