Political Digression Thread -- Save UP! Move the politically focused stuff here

[Dale]

Check out the sign the woman in the photo is holding ...

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/posteverything/wp/2017/08/16/heather-heyer-is-part-of-a-long-tradition-of-white-anti-racism-activists/?utm_term=.831d0b1a8d00

 

[kermit]

2 hours ago, Dale said:

Check out the sign the woman in the photo is holding ...

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/posteverything/wp/2017/08/16/heather-heyer-is-part-of-a-long-tradition-of-white-anti-racism-activists/?utm_term=.831d0b1a8d00

not seeing how it connects the left to previous genocide...

EDIT: This sign?

Edited August 16, 2017 by kermit

[caterpillar2]

1 hour ago, kermit said:

I was being hyperbolic in response to Dale's statement that there were not 17 white supremacists in the entire country. I think the photographic evidence presented here and elsewhere from Charlottesville shows how silly that claim is.

If two white supremacists in the white house are not enough to satisfy you that something is wrong then I can't be of further assistance.

 

Who are the two white supremacists in the White House? 

[asthasr]

Have you read Breitbart lately? That's Bannon. Trump himself has a long history of saying racist things and then claiming he didn't. Jeff Sessions failed to be nominated as a federal judge in the 1980s because of his racial comments.

[ah59396]

On 8/14/2017 at 7:23 PM, Dale said:

Oh, for more 1940's Republicans. They opposed the fascism and cult-of-personality of FDR and his catastrophic war.

Whatever languishing credibility you ever had is gone.  This is the dumbest thing I've ever read.  Congrats.  

 

Take a stroll down to the VA and let the remaining WW2 vets know your thoughts on this catastrophic war.  I'm sure they'll give you a warm welcome.

[Dale]

3 hours ago, kermit said:

not seeing how it connects the left to previous genocide...

EDIT: This sign?

Point: when you start calling everyone a Nazi, you'n've run out of verbal ammunition when the actual Nazis show up. Then it won't matter if you assure them that you're a fellow leftist.

[kermit]

11 minutes ago, Dale said:

Point: when you start calling everyone a Nazi, you'n've run out of verbal ammunition when the actual Nazis show up. Then it won't matter if you assure them that you're a fellow leftist.

so these guys are just playing dressup?

and about that evidence...

Edited August 17, 2017 by kermit

[Dale]

1 minute ago, kermit said:

These guys are just playing dressup?

and about that evidence...

Yes, the people who killed nine-million people clashed with the people who killed 90-million people in Charlottesville.

I'm beginning to get why people are saying these moral equivalence arguments are nuts.

[kermit]

20 minutes ago, Dale said:

Yes, the people who killed nine-million people clashed with the people who killed 90-million people in Charlottesville.

so now I am stuck in a sarcasm loop. I thought you were saying the leftists in Charlottesville wanted to make us all communists and put everybody in work camps (although you never shared your evidence for that). Now it sounds like you think they are just playing make believe. Which is it?

[Dale]

19 minutes ago, kermit said:

so now I am stuck in a sarcasm loop. I thought you were saying the leftists in Charlottesville wanted to make us all communists and put everybody in work camps (although you never shared your evidence for that). Now it sounds like you think they are just playing make believe. Which is it?

I'm just pointing out that those two white guys are nine-million killers in precisely the same way that the people they clashed with are 90-million killers.

[kermit]

Just now, Dale said:

I'm just pointing out that those two white guys are nine-million killers in precisely the same way that the people they clashed with are 90-million killers.

so the left doesn't want to murder us all?

[cltbwimob]

Man, this thread is becoming like the comments section in the Observer.  I can't wait for the first person to hurl a "your mom" insult.  

[15895]

14 minutes ago, cltbwimob said:

Man, this thread is becoming like the comments section in the Observer.  I can't wait for the first person to hurl a "your mom" insult.  

It's the Nazi version of HB2

[asthasr]

I just can't believe there are people who can hear these guys chanting "blood and soil," see them flying the swastika, see them making the Hitler salute, hear them say "hail  victory!", see them murder a woman, and then pretend everything is a-ok.

Actually, I can believe it. It just fills me with despair.

[asthasr]

And here's the key difference between the "left" and these Nazis: yes, there have been great sins committed in the name of communism. Stalin and Mao were terrible. However, you owe a lot to the left: child labor laws, eight hour days, the five day work week, retirement. People fought and died for these things you take for granted. They fought and died right here in North Carolina.

You can call these people commies or socialists if you want to, but they were also great Americans.

There has never been a great Nazi.

[Dale]

Seattle police show Durham police how it's done ...

http://thefederalist.com/2017/08/16/durham-police-took-pictures-protesters-vandalized-seattle-police-think-thats-insane/

[RiverwoodCLT]

I had 4 uncles to fight Nazis during World War ll.  These NAZIS lover should read about the Nazis crimes during the War ll.

I have no love for these people, God will have to take care of these people.

[kermit]

4 hours ago, Dale said:

Seattle police show Durham police how it's done ...

http://thefederalist.com/2017/08/16/durham-police-took-pictures-protesters-vandalized-seattle-police-think-thats-insane/

According to this source the Federalist publishes with an extreme right bias (but they do get high marks for factual reporting).

https://mediabiasfactcheck.com/the-federalist/

So I ask again, how do you keep this bias from manipulating your perspective? Since you said the problem with UP was that "most" of us are being manipulated by the MSM it might be illuminating for us to know more about how you avoid being manipulated by the bias in sources like the Federalist.

Edited August 17, 2017 by kermit

[videtur quam contuor]

If the only personal pronoun allowed in this thread was "I" it would be succinct and concluded days ago..

[caterpillar2]

17 hours ago, kermit said:

so these guys are just playing dressup?

and about that evidence...

 

Edited August 17, 2017 by caterpillar2
Didn't wish to be suspended for not agreeing with the monitor.

[cjd5050]

This history is relevant today because of the depressingly idiotic argument about whether it’s OK to equate “antifa” — left-wing radicals — with the neo-Nazi and white supremacist rabble that recently descended on Charlottesville, Va. The president claims there were “very fine people” on both sides of the protest and that the “anti-fascist” radicals are equally blameworthy. He borrowed from Fox News’ Sean Hannity the bogus term “alt-left” to describe the antifa radicals.

The term is bogus because, unlike the alt-right, nobody calls themselves “the alt-left.” That’s too bad. One of the only nice things about the alt-right is that its leaders are honest about the fact that they want nothing to do with traditional American conservatism. Like the original Nazis, they seek to replace the traditional right with their racial hogwash.

The antifa crowd has a very similar agenda with regard to American liberalism. These goons and thugs oppose free speech, celebrate violence, despise dissent and have little use for anything else in the American political tradition. But many liberals, particularly in the media, are victims of the same kind of confusion that vexed so much of American liberalism in the 20th century. Because antifa suddenly has the (alt-)right enemies, they must be the good guys.

They’re not. And that’s why this debate is so toxically stupid. Fine, antifa isn’t as bad as the KKK. Who cares? Since when is being less bad than the Klan a major moral accomplishment?

In these tribal times, the impulse to support anyone who shares your enemies is powerful. But it’s a morally stunted reflex. This is America. You’re free to denounce totalitarians wherever you find them — even if they might hate the right people.

Source : Fighting Nazis doesn’t make ‘antifa’ the good guys

[kermit]

Just as being a conservative does not necessary make a person a supporter of nazis or white supremacists

being opposed to nazis or white supremacists does not make someone a member of the antifa. There is nothing wrong with opposing fascism. 

[I am intrigued by the right's frequent use of the term 'antifa' -- kinda seems like they are outing themselves as fascists by validating the label]

[ruraljuror]

3 hours ago, cjd5050 said:

The antifa crowd has a very similar agenda with regard to American liberalism. These goons and thugs oppose free speech, celebrate violence, despise dissent and have little use for anything else in the American political tradition.

Antifa doesn't plan marches all over the country chanting about ending free speech.  I see no members of Antifa saluting Mao, or Stalin's regime nor do I see any communist rallies invading American towns and terrorizing let alone killing the people there.  

Meanwhile the Nazis are waving swastika flags, chanting "Jews will not replace us" and saluting Hitler, who coincidentally 'opposed free speech, celebrated violence, despised dissent and had little use for anything else in the American political tradition' himself.

Antifa stood with the people of Charlottesville.  Here's a bunch an article with statements from a bunch of Charlottesville residents who credit Antifa for saving them from serious harm:  http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/politics/2017/08/what_the_alt_left_was_actually_doing_in_charlottesville.html

 

3 hours ago, cjd5050 said:

In these tribal times, the impulse to support anyone who shares your enemies is powerful. But it’s a morally stunted reflex. This is America. You’re free to denounce totalitarians wherever you find them — even if they might hate the right people.

And yes, everyone is free to and in fact should denounce totalitarianism wherever they find it.  If/When Antifa (or whoever) comes to Charlotte rallying and promoting totalitarianism, then I highly recommend that you take to the streets to oppose and denounce them as loudly as possible.  But in the meantime, what's the point of denouncing them from the comfort of an internet forum when they're the ones actually out there in the streets exercising their free speech and opposing the torch carrying totalitarians?  Yes, the impulse to support anyone who shares your enemies is powerful indeed, even if that support is tacit, but it's a morally stunted reflex and we can all be guilty of it from time to time. 

Edited August 18, 2017 by ruraljuror

[cjd5050]

2 hours ago, ruraljuror said:

Antifa doesn't plan marches all over the country chanting about ending free speech.

 

If you actually think this then you are ignorant.  

I despise the KKK but I want to live in a country where they are free to demonstrate and free to hold rallies.  The reason is that right is protected.  I like free speech because sunshine is the best disinfectant.   I have no problem with people losing employment, social status or any other result of their participation of free speech.

This view, however, is not shared by the left or Antifa.  They counter-protest and try to silence rather than expose.  These efforts are both through nonviolent and violent means by the way.  I just wish they would stop hiding their face when expressing themselves.  Sunshine and all....

2 hours ago, ruraljuror said:

Meanwhile the Nazis are waving swastika flags, chanting "Jews will not replace us" and saluting Hitler, who coincidentally 'opposed free speech, celebrated violence, despised dissent and had little use for anything else in the American political tradition' himself.

 

So?    Let them chant.  Calmly take pictures of who they are and out them one by one.  Track them as a terror group and find a way to lock up any person who takes any action.  

2 hours ago, ruraljuror said:

Antifa stood with the people of Charlottesville.  Here's a bunch an article with statements from a bunch of Charlottesville residents who credit Antifa for saving them from serious harm:  http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/politics/2017/08/what_the_alt_left_was_actually_doing_in_charlottesville.html

1

Slate.  LOL.  Almost as bad as CNN....   Instead of taking the word of a slate blogger I like video.  

Everyone in this video, besides the media, is an asshole.

 

2 hours ago, ruraljuror said:

And yes, everyone is free to and in fact should denounce totalitarianism wherever they find it.  If/When Antifa (or whoever) comes to Charlotte rallying and promoting totalitarianism, then I highly recommend that you take to the streets to oppose and denounce them as loudly as possible.  But in the meantime, what's the point of denouncing them from the comfort of an internet forum when they're the ones actually out there in the streets exercising their free speech and opposing the torch carrying totalitarians?  Yes, the impulse to support anyone who shares your enemies is powerful indeed, even if that support is tacit, but it's a morally stunted reflex and we can all be guilty of it from time to time. 

 

I have no problem with Antifa promoting their ideas.  They are all anti police assholes but they have a right to a voice of thier own.  

What I do have a problem is when they try to suppress other voices.  Simple and small minds need to try and control things.  To try and crush what they can't control.  I have a problem with the removal of free speech. 

[kermit]

18 hours ago, cjd5050 said:

What I do have a problem is when they try to suppress other voices. 

Yea, this makes me uncomfortable as well. However the right to free speech does not mean that people are forced to listen. While I generally* find it abhorrent when any group shouts down another, ultimately that action is just another form of free speech. Given the inability of the state to force people to listen (or remain quiet) it seems like when one group gets shouted over, they have no other option but to go and find another forum.

*I am certainly willing to fight to maintain free speech as a right in every context. However I don't personally feel that the right extends to the ability to make threats (this includes (IMO) holding up the third reich as a model society). When a group is making threats then I have no problem with silencing them by any means necessary.

#justonedudesopinion

Edited August 19, 2017 by kermit