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Political Digression Thread -- Save UP! Move the politically focused stuff here

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1 hour ago, kermit said:

Yea, this makes me uncomfortable as well. However the right to free speech does not mean that people are forced to listen. While I generally* find it abhorrent when any group shouts down another, ultimately that action is just another form of free speech. Given the inability of the state to force people to listen (or remain quiet) it seems like when one group gets shouted over, they have no other option but to go and find another forum.

*I am certainly willing to fight to maintain free speech as a right in every context. However I don't personally feel that the right extends to the ability to make threats (this includes (IMO) holding up the third reich as a model society). When a group is making threats then I have no problem with limiting it by any means necessary.

#justonedudesopinion

I agree with you here.  I like how that KKK site is being chased from provider to provider.  I like how people are getting fired for going to those protests.  

Freedom of Speech, Not Freedom From Consequences.

 

What I am concerned about is people using the accusation of a racist or zealot to try and suppress an opinion that's on the other side of their belief structure.  This was done in this thread a bit...or at least attempted to by some.  It's wrong and it causes problems.

 

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7 hours ago, cjd5050 said:

I agree with you here.  I like how that KKK site is being chased from provider to provider.  I like how people are getting fired for going to those protests.  

Freedom of Speech, Not Freedom From Consequences.

 

What I am concerned about is people using the accusation of a racist or zealot to try and suppress an opinion that's on the other side of their belief structure.  This was done in this thread a bit...or at least attempted to by some.  It's wrong and it causes problems.

 

 

Agreed. But the best way to combat those that think BLM is bad or that those who support the heritage of the confederate flag is not to turn it into GOP vs. DEM.

 

If we could all just say those who fly the nazi flag and use the confederate flag as a symbol of white supremacist are deplorable and those who go to BLM to loot and vandalize are deplorable also, then I feel like confederate monuments would not be an issue right now. But we are so busy turning it into a GOP vs. DEM conflict when we should just condemn the fringe parties.

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15 hours ago, cjd5050 said:

If you actually think this then you are ignorant.  

We can agree that I'm ignorant of a lot of things.  But don't just tell me I'm ignorant--show me.  Give me a link or two that shows the Antifa anti-free speech marches and help me see the light.  If this is happening I would very much like to know about it. 

 

15 hours ago, cjd5050 said:

So?    Let them chant.  Calmly take pictures of who they are and out them one by one.  Track them as a terror group and find a way to lock up any person who takes any action.  

We agree again!  Of course, we've been tracking these groups and individuals for years so this is not exactly a new idea and hasn't been especially effective thus far based on the trend I"m seeing. 

Even still, why then are we not holding the Nazis to the same standard? Couldn't they just calmly take pictures of all these radical leftists that are supposedly equally responsible for this mess?  Why not publicly out them instead of hitting them with tiki torches and, you know, running them over with cars?  

 

15 hours ago, cjd5050 said:

Slate.  LOL.  Almost as bad as CNN....   Instead of taking the word of a slate blogger I like video.  

If you'd clicked the link of the article instead of (again without providing any support) discrediting the source, you wouldn't have found the 'word of a slate blogger' but the direct words of Charlottesville residents themselves.  Here's a little sample: "I am a pastor in Charlottesville, and antifa saved my life twice on Saturday." 

Why don't you send that pastor an email and tell him about how wrong he is to embrace such a hateful, violent group just because they happen to also oppose the '(alt) right enemies.'

 

15 hours ago, cjd5050 said:

I despise the KKK but I want to live in a country where they are free to demonstrate and free to hold rallies.  The reason is that right is protected.  I like free speech because sunshine is the best disinfectant.   I have no problem with people losing employment, social status or any other result of their participation of free speech.

We both also despise the KKK and want to live in a country where they are free to demonstrate and free to hold rallies.  Lucky for us, WE DO!!!  Nazis and the KKK hold rallies all the time.  On Friday night of the most recent episode, however, beyond simply marching and gathering in the park, those Nazis felt entitled to stand at a particular place in the park by the statue where Charlottesville residents and other law abiding counter protesters were already standing, in accordance with their own free speech and assembly rights.  What right did the Nazis have to be there that the town's own citizens and those supporting them didn't?  I would argue that this is an equally important component to free speech which you seem to be neglecting.

15 hours ago, cjd5050 said:

This view, however, is not shared by the left or Antifa.  They counter-protest and try to silence rather than expose.  These efforts are both through nonviolent and violent means by the way.  I just wish they would stop hiding their face when expressing themselves.  Sunshine and all....

To be fair, unlike fascism or racism (or conservatism or buddhism for that matter)--both free speech and 'the left" were both products of the Enlightenment, but I hear what you're saying and you're not entirely wrong.  Too often 'the left' does counter protest and try to silence rather than expose.  

Then again, given that this all started with a moral equivalency debate, isn't trying to diminish your opposition through protest considerably preferable to promoting the silencing your opposition through systematic oppression, eugenics, subordination, and genocide?  It's against the law to yell fire in crowded theater, but it's also against the law to actually ignite a fire in a crowded theater--that doesn't make these actions morally equivalent.  I too think it's a little stupid when college kids protest Ann Coulter or Milo Y. appearances instead of ridiculing their ideas, but then again it's those kids' right to free speech to do so, both as citizens and as payers of the tuition and dues that often cover the appearance fees of the speakers they're protesting.  

But can we also agree that those protests aren't anywhere near the same ballpark as suggesting that the people you oppose should be removed in some way or killed?  That's like yelling 'fire' in a crowded hospital burn ward and then standing in front of the door and playing the victim card when people shove you trying to get out. 

Edited by ruraljuror
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13 hours ago, AirNostrumMAD said:

If we could all just say those who fly the nazi flag and use the confederate flag as a symbol of white supremacist are deplorable and those who go to BLM to loot and vandalize are deplorable also, then I feel like confederate monuments would not be an issue right now. But we are so busy turning it into a GOP vs. DEM conflict when we should just condemn the fringe parties.

3

I wish we could but there is a reason this is done.

Calling someone who is middle right on the spectrum (fiscal conservative/social liberal) a racist because they find BLM to be a racist and generally a bad organization allows, at times, the ability to try and silence or suppress these people from participating in the process elsewhere.

Dishonest people will call anyone pointing this out as 'showing privilege' but in reality, it's a right, not a privilege.  Most of what the left wants to call 'white privilege' are basic rights in this country.  Instead of working to make sure everyone gets these, they have taken the course of trying to remove them.  A dishonest shortcut if you will.

Edited by cjd5050
Edit Words Due To Filters. Asshole allowed but GD not. LULZY

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3 hours ago, ruraljuror said:

We can agree that I'm ignorant of a lot of things.  But don't just tell me I'm ignorant--show me.  Give me a link or two that shows the Antifa anti-free speech marches and help me see the light.  If this is happening I would very much like to know about it. 

 

Here are a couple of items.

1- The first video is of a left-wing hack from the Southern Poverty Law Center.  The SPLC is held up by the left as this beacon of trust, when in reality they are a bias org.  By biased I mean they focus on the wrongs to those that they have an interest in and ignore the wrongs of others.  This video is a great example of that.

2 - The second is a link from The Atlantic

3 - The third is just a link to a google search.

 

I am not going to do more than that because for every nugget of honesty out there you find it's wrapped in a layer of BS from either the left or the right.  You have to almost daily digest everything and parse the BS. 

 

 

 

https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2017/09/the-rise-of-the-violent-left/534192/

 

Antifa Violence Berkley

 

 

 

 

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2 hours ago, cjd5050 said:

I wish we could but there is a reason this is done.

Calling someone who says middle right on the spectrum (fiscal conservative/social liberal) a racist because they find BLM to be a racist and generally a bad organization allows, at times, the ability to try and silence or suppress these people from participating in the process elsewhere.

Dishonest people will call anyone pointing this out as 'showing privilege' but in reality, it's a angel love right, not a privilege.  Most of what the left wants to call 'white privilege' are basic rights in this country.  Instead of working to make sure everyone gets these, they have taken the course of trying to remove them.  A dishonest shortcut if you will.

What in the world is an "angel love right"?  That's a new one for me.

What rights do you think BLM is trying to remove from you?  It's not like they're demanding that cops start shooting more unarmed white people in order to balance the statistics out.  That would obviously be crazy.  Which of your privileges and rights do you think BLM wants to take away instead of expanding those rights to everyone?

You can think BLM is racist and a bad organization without being a racist.  It gets harder not to sink below the racist threshold, however, if you deny that our justice system produces seriously disproportionate results for different races in this country--and that's been the case from slavery, to jim crow, to stop and frisk, to the likelihood of getting the death penalty, etc.  These are the injustices that BLM seeks to correct, but they certainly aren't trying to achieve these goals by jailing more white people to even it up.  That would be pretty silly and counter productive.  

 

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all this focus on the 'radical left' is simply misdirection. It allows the right-leaning media to ignore the fact that thousands (hundreds of thousands? millions?) of 'real' Americans are troubled enough with fascism to protest it. These conniptions about the antifa are simply the 'paid protestor' soundbite dujour. 

Why would the right want to vilify Americans who choose to protest fascism? I think we all already know the answer to that.

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2 hours ago, cjd5050 said:

Here are a couple of items.

1- The first video is of a left-wing hack from the Southern Poverty Law Center.  The SPLC is held up by the left as this beacon of trust, when in reality they are a bias org.  By biased I mean they focus on the wrongs to those that they have an interest in and ignore the wrongs of others.  This video is a great example of that.

2 - The second is a link from The Atlantic

3 - The third is just a link to a google search

I appreciate you taking the time to compile some sources, though I thought you were going to show me some of the marches of the anti-fascists all over the country where they're chanting about ending free speech, or some of the communists organizing and saluting the methods of Stalin and Mao.  Those are the things you said I was ignorant of, and there is nothing I see about any of that in these links you sent. 

Here instead we have:

1.  Chris Mathews badgering his guests about whether Antifa opposes anyone other than fascists.  He doesn't even make a statement about Anti-fa let alone provide any support--he just asks a bunch of questions. 

2.  A good article from the Atlantic about Antifa's roots in the U.S. (hard to blame punk bands for opposing the Nazis trying to recruit at their concerts). 

3. A google search about violence

 

I certainly wouldn't disagree with your premise that some anti-fascists are violent assholes, but there are some terrible assholes among any group of more than 50 people or so.  And I would also agree that any member of Anti-fa (or whoever) who initiates violence should face assault charges just like anyone else would.  

But lets not act like the Antifa baggage is the same as the Nazis and the KKK.  Everyone who marches with the Nazis knows exactly what they're signing up for on a philosophical level, while most people had never heard of Anti-fa until a couple years ago.  Hell, most people may not have even heard of them until last weekend. There are plenty of people who see the rise of the fascists in the U.S. and are happy to support Anti-fa simply because they're standing up to the Nazis.  Plenty of people have probably even joined Anti-fa exclusively for this reason without any other goals or agenda.  Of course, there are certainly some members/subsets of Anti-fa who do have larger goals than simply stemming the rise of the Nazi tide.  Some may be Anarchists, some are libertarian, some are communists, some are probably not very political at all, because you don't have to be an especially politically astute person to oppose the Nazis.  

Point being, there is no cohesive political goals underpinning all the disparate groups and individuals who make up anti-fa.  The only uniting belief is the opposition of fascism, which is why you don't see them marching all over the country--they just show up to oppose the Nazis when the Nazis plan a rally.  The Nazis, on the other hand, are vey much rallying for the same cause and the same goals.  That's why they're the ones organizing the marches.

 

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On ‎8‎/‎17‎/‎2017 at 10:47 AM, kermit said:

According to this source the Federalist publishes with an extreme right bias (but they do get high marks for factual reporting).

https://mediabiasfactcheck.com/the-federalist/

So I ask again, how do you keep this bias from manipulating your perspective? Since you said the problem with UP was that "most" of us are being manipulated by the MSM it might be illuminating for us to know more about how you avoid being manipulated by the bias in sources like the Federalist.

Dale: "There is plenty of fault to go around."

Kermit: "How do you know that's not a biased statement ? Why can't you accept that all we have is a white nationalist problem ?"

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10 minutes ago, Dale said:

Dale: "There is plenty of fault to go around."

and I think its BS to suggest the 'both sides' narrative is reasonable.

You are the one who said the problem with UP was that 'most' of us were manipulated by biased media. I think its fair to ask how balanced your media consumption is.

 

Edited by kermit

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1 hour ago, ruraljuror said:

What in the world is an "angel love right"?  That's a new one for me.

What rights do you think BLM is trying to remove from you?  It's not like they're demanding that cops start shooting more unarmed white people in order to balance the statistics out.  That would obviously be crazy.  Which of your privileges and rights do you think BLM wants to take away instead of expanding those rights to everyone?

You can think BLM is racist and a bad organization without being a racist.  It gets harder not to sink below the racist threshold, however, if you deny that our justice system produces seriously disproportionate results for different races in this country--and that's been the case from slavery, to jim crow, to stop and frisk, to the likelihood of getting the death penalty, etc.  These are the injustices that BLM seeks to correct, but they certainly aren't trying to achieve these goals by jailing more white people to even it up.  That would be pretty silly and counter productive.  

 

2

angel love right is a filter replacement.  Asshole is allowed but G O D - D A M N is not.

BLM wants to suppress any voice from Whites in America.  That, and being anti-police, is the purpose of their org.  Fools may march with them for other reasons but that is why they exist.   I am excited to see the results of this lawsuit - http://www.reuters.com/article/us-louisiana-police-lawsuit-idUSKBN19S2TA

I also do not deny that the justice system is much harder on blacks than others.  What the Clinton admin did with sentencing laws has wreaked havoc on the black community and black families.  That said, those laws were actually requested by the black community because gangs and drug violence had taken over many neighborhoods.  

I think ending or drastically changing the war on drugs is a top 3 action item.  So many problems are down stream from our drug laws.  But I also refuse to ignore cold hard crime statistics.  There are lots of truths out there that people want to ignore.  

35 minutes ago, kermit said:

all this focus on the 'radical left' is simply misdirection. It allows the right-leaning media to ignore the fact that thousands (hundreds of thousands? millions?) of 'real' Americans are troubled enough with fascism to protest it. These conniptions about the antifa are simply the 'paid protestor' soundbite dujour. 

Why would the right want to vilify Americans who choose to protest fascism? I think we all already know the answer to that.

Because there are dumb people who think Antifa is really anti-fascism and there are smart people who know what Antifa is really about but don't care because it fits inside of their off center moral compass.  

32 minutes ago, ruraljuror said:

1.  Chris Mathews badgering his guests about whether Antifa opposes anyone other than fascists.  He doesn't even make a statement about Anti-fa let alone provide any support--he just asks a bunch of questions. 

2.  A good article from the Atlantic about Antifa's roots in the U.S. (hard to blame punk bands for opposing the Nazis trying to recruit at their concerts). 

3. A google search about violence

 

I don't care what Chris Matthews says.  Somewhat amusing you didn't even comment on what the person from the SPLC said.  Which is why I posed the video.

The link was to Antifa Violence.  

Edited by cjd5050

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^continuing to argue that Antifa is representative of everyone on the left who is protesting fascism is the logical equivalent of me saying that all republicans are nazis.

There is nothing inappropriate about protesting fascism. I would argue that it is a defining characteristic of Americanness. 

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22 hours ago, kermit said:

Yea, this makes me uncomfortable as well. However the right to free speech does not mean that people are forced to listen. While I generally* find it abhorrent when any group shouts down another, ultimately that action is just another form of free speech. Given the inability of the state to force people to listen (or remain quiet) it seems like when one group gets shouted over, they have no other option but to go and find another forum.

*I am certainly willing to fight to maintain free speech as a right in every context. However I don't personally feel that the right extends to the ability to make threats (this includes (IMO) holding up the third reich as a model society). When a group is making threats then I have no problem with silencing them by any means necessary.

#justonedudesopinion

They were marching for which they have a right. They were attacked by violent morons. The violent morons were the bad guys. They were the law breakers. Nothing else matters. People belonging to a hate groups are not exempted from freedoms.  I am sure that most that are appalled that the KKK and Nazis would say nothing negative nor react if they were Black Panthers or BLM thugs. It works both ways. I am defending nobody specifically just the right to demonstrate, a right that I fought for for many years serving my country. This double standard shows that intelligence and tolerance is lacking in this country. I lived in London for years. There are marches by crazy radical groups and anarchists regularly. The citizens go about their business and just let them do their thing. I wish we were that sophisticated. There will always be crazy people and as long as they don't harm or physically threaten, they should be ignored. 

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“Everyone believes in the atrocities of the enemy and disbelieves in those of his own side, without ever bothering to examine the evidence.”
― George Orwell

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2 hours ago, caterpillar2 said:

They were marching for which they have a right. They were attacked by violent morons. The violent morons were the bad guys. They were the law breakers. Nothing else matters. People belonging to a hate groups are not exempted from freedoms.  I am sure that most that are appalled that the KKK and Nazis would say nothing negative nor react if they were Black Panthers or BLM thugs. It works both ways. I am defending nobody specifically just the right to demonstrate, a right that I fought for for many years serving my country. This double standard shows that intelligence and tolerance is lacking in this country. I lived in London for years. There are marches by crazy radical groups and anarchists regularly. The citizens go about their business and just let them do their thing. I wish we were that sophisticated. There will always be crazy people and as long as they don't harm or physically threaten, they should be ignored. 

Everybody marching had a right to march.

Who are you saying was breaking the law? There is no credible evidence that anyone other than a tiny fringe attacked the right (please share it if you have it), but there is plenty of evidence of mobs from the right beating people (e.g. Deandre Harris) and individuals from the right killing people.

There is nothing wrong with protesting against fascism, but it is certainly illegal and immoral to assault and kill people.

Edited by kermit

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41 minutes ago, kermit said:

Everybody marching had a right to march.

There is nothing wrong with protesting against fascism, but it is certainly illegal and immoral to assault and kill people.

Totally agree

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5 hours ago, kermit said:

^continuing to argue that Antifa is representative of everyone on the left who is protesting fascism is the logical equivalent of me saying that all republicans are nazis.

There is nothing inappropriate about protesting fascism. I would argue that it is a defining characteristic of Americanness. 

There was nothing inappropriate in rejecting communism but McCarthyism.....

There is nothing inappropriate about protesting fascism.  Too bad that's not what Antifa is about.....

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39 minutes ago, cjd5050 said:

Too bad that's not what Antifa is about.....

yea, whatever. Why are you so distracted by a fringe group that you are choosing to ignore  the motives of 30,000 anti-fascism protestors today in Boston?

 

Edited by kermit

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2 hours ago, kermit said:

yea, whatever. Why are you so distracted by a fringe group that you are choosing to ignore  the motives of 30,000 anti-fascism protestors today in Boston?

 

I'm not distracted.  I'm aware.  Sadly too many people out there with a 'yea, whatever' attitude.  

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12 hours ago, cjd5050 said:

I'm not distracted.  I'm aware.  Sadly too many people out there with a 'yea, whatever' attitude.  

On 8/19/2017 at 9:21 AM, cjd5050 said:

Calling someone who is middle right on the spectrum (fiscal conservative/social liberal) a racist because they find BLM to be a racist and generally a bad organization allows, at times, the ability to try and silence or suppress these people from participating in the process elsewhere.

You are distracted (or being duplicitous). You are calling people on the middle left of the spectrum part of the problem just because they are protesting the rise of American fascism in the same place as fringe groups like antifa. Your focus on the fringes of the movement and the suggestion that the mainstream left must get control of the fringe before they may protest appears to be designed to discredit the the left and discourage them exercising their rights. 

As you said above, this ain't kosher.

 

Edited by kermit
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10 hours ago, kermit said:

You are distracted (or being duplicitous). You are calling people on the middle left of the spectrum part of the problem just because they are protesting the rise of American fascism in the same place as fringe groups like antifa. Your focus on the fringes of the movement and the suggestion that the mainstream left must get control of the fringe before they may protest appears to be designed to discredit the the left and discourage them exercising their rights. 

As you said abovr, this ain't kosher.

 Selective American fascism is not a good thing.  Fascism is not just bad if it is seen in groups that are considered right like wing the Nazis. I have never heard or seen absolutely no Nazi activity in N.C. during my whole life. One has to go to Chicago or other places to see it.  I hope that anyone that protests hate groups are including BLM, Black Panthers, and other hate mongers that normally get a free ride and lots of support from snowflakes.  

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35 minutes ago, caterpillar2 said:

 I have never heard or seen absolutely no Nazi activity in N.C. during my whole life.

Well, this was last week: http://www.gastongazette.com/news/20170814/gaston-county-man-this-is-nazi-america

and this was in 1979 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greensboro_massacre 

And you have exempted the right from your declaration that 'selective fascism protests are bad' because...?

 

Edited by kermit

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10 hours ago, caterpillar2 said:

  I hope that anyone that protests hate groups are including BLM, Black Panthers, and other hate mongers that normally get a free ride and lots of support from snowflakes.  

Yea, super logic. Now that you have enlightened me I am going to stop payment on my donation to malaria prevention research because cancer, tuberculous, and fatal snake bites also kill people.  Since I can't afford to donate to all of these worthy causes I just wont do anything to help solve any of these problems, even the most deadly one.

/s/

Edited by kermit

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