New Richmond Arena

[Brent114]

You guys are unbelievable. 

You proclaimed last week that Richmond was closed for business.   That NH was a once-in-a-lifetime opportunity. 
 

Since then a handful of large projects have been announced and green lighted. 
 

Now there’s this offer.  You’re claiming that it’s a lowball offer but it’s actually a higher offer than Navy Hill made (15 million for 14 acres versus 15.6 for 21).   It also comes with new housing, new office space, a hotel, buss transfer station and an arena.    The Coliseum can most definitely be updated.  Hampton Coliseum manages to stay relevant.  I imagine any renovation would leave the building unrecognizable anyway.  It will look new and be up to present day standards.   

I personally don’t trust Douglas.  He has disappointed in the past (though the company has accelerated their work in Richmond recently).  There’s also nothing here to really judge yet.  Like y’all, I think that $15 million is stupid low for that much land downtown. 

....but the recently scrapped plan was a dumpster fire.   Channel your inner Disney princesses  and let it go. 

 

Edited February 25, 2020 by Brent114

[DalWill]

3 minutes ago, Brent114 said:

You guys are unbelievable. 

You proclaimed last week that Richmond was closed for business.   That NH was a once-in-a-lifetime opportunity. 
 

Since then a handful of large projects have been announced and green lighted. 
 

Now there’s this offer.  You’re claiming that it’s a lowball offer but it’s actually a higher offer than Navy Hill made (15 million for 14 acres versus 15.6 for 21).   It also comes with new housing, new office space, a hotel and an arena.    The Coliseum can most definitely be updated.  Hampton Coliseum manages to stay relevant.  I imagine any renovation would leave the building unrecognizable anyway.  It will look new and be up to present day standards.   

I personally don’t trust Douglas.  He has disappointed in the past (though the company has accelerated their work in Richmond recently).  There’s also nothing here to really judge yet.  Like y’all, I think that $15 million is stupid low for that much land downtown. 

....but the recently scrapped plan was a dumpster fire.   Channel your inner Disney princesses  and let it go. 

 

I appreciate your stance, but it needs to be replaced. Renovations at this point is only a bandage solution for a situation like this.

Edited February 25, 2020 by DalWill

[DowntownCoruscant]

So there’s this episode of The Office where Dwight convinces Andy to accept a low-ball offer for his Xterra, then turns around and sells it for a magnificent sum....

[Brent114]

That’s kinda like Nay Hill buying the land for an even cheaper price then turning around and making Richmond residents finance it. 

[vaceltic]

A new Richmond arena is not getting built anytime soon unless anyone knows a billionaire benefactor who is going to pay for it themselves. Call your Board of Supervisors in Chesterfield and Henrico and ask them for one.

There are only two options. Renovate it and operate as the Scope and Hampton Coliseum do or demolish it and don't have one. With the second option, there's almost two extra parcels that can be activated onto the tax rolls - resolving arguments Stoney made about needing more taxable parcels downtown.  The second option IS in play here.

[Henrico Weather]

14 hours ago, vaceltic said:

And everyone here was convinced the business community would leave Richmond for dead. Yet only a few weeks later, here we are.

its still a low ball offer. I’d say no to this.

And this is the kind of garbage, K-Mart style proposals you're going to get, after rejecting the best offer you'll EVER get to make something of downtown Richmond. I sure as hell wouldn't call this progress. This is like rejecting a brand new Tesla and saying, "Oh, well, we'll get a nice fresh coat of paint on that '71 Pontiac, and thump our chests about it."

[wrldcoupe4]

2 hours ago, vaceltic said:

A new Richmond arena is not getting built anytime soon unless anyone knows a billionaire benefactor who is going to pay for it themselves. Call your Board of Supervisors in Chesterfield and Henrico and ask them for one.

There are only two options. Renovate it and operate as the Scope and Hampton Coliseum do or demolish it and don't have one. With the second option, there's almost two extra parcels that can be activated onto the tax rolls - resolving arguments Stoney made about needing more taxable parcels downtown.  The second option IS in play here.

I was curious about the research on large MSA's  that lack an arena.  I wasn't able to find much detail on it. Can you provide some examples of US cities where the absence of one has allowed the city/region to thrive? What was  the add-on benefit to employment, schools, etc?

[Brent114]

2 hours ago, Henrico Weather said:

And this is the kind of garbage, K-Mart style proposals you're going to get, after rejecting the best offer you'll EVER get to make something of downtown Richmond. I sure as hell wouldn't call this progress. This is like rejecting a brand new Tesla and saying, "Oh, well, we'll get a nice fresh coat of paint on that '71 Pontiac, and thump our chests about it."

And how can you possibly know the details of this offer? 
 

Do you honestly think that putting all of downtown’s taxable real estate into a TIF to rebuild an existing structure is “the best offer you’ll EVER get”?   BTW, Tesla would fund their own development.  NH was no Tesla. 

 

 

[Icetera]

1 hour ago, wrldcoupe4 said:

I was curious about the research on large MSA's  that lack an arena.  I wasn't able to find much detail on it. Can you provide some examples of US cities where the absence of one has allowed the city/region to thrive? What was  the add-on benefit to employment, schools, etc?

Richmond is currently the only Top 50 MSA without a functional arena (since I was corrected on Dayton), or a significant one within its CSA, so we would be the first example.   Chattanooga (#100) is the only other within the Top 100.

As far as NH vs Jemal paying $15 mil.:
NH was paying for all of the properties other than the coliseum site and Blue's Armory as they were to be retained by the city.  The land they would have acquired is valued at $26 mil plus $39 mil in improvements.  Most of the improvements would require extensive demolition or rehab, plus the work that would have normally been done by the city laid on the developers.  Jemal would be getting a much better deal plus would now have full control of the arena and not have to worry about restoring the street grid or other city requests.  If it was anyone but Jemal I may still be excited about this and would love to see the potential of a heavy-retrofit to the coliseum.

Edited February 25, 2020 by Icetera

[wrldcoupe4]

4 minutes ago, Icetera said:

Richmond is currently the only Top 50 MSA without a functional arena (since I was corrected on Dayton), or a significant one within its CSA, so we would be the first example.   Chattanooga (#100) is the only other within the Top 100.
 

I understand, but am wondering if there is any precedent that could be provided that shows the benefits of not having one since that scenario is being floated above as an option for our city.

9 minutes ago, Brent114 said:

Do you honestly think that putting all of downtown’s taxable real estate into a TIF to rebuild an existing structure is “the best offer you’ll EVER get”?   
 

I liked the concept where the state diverted tax revenue to the city which shrunk the TIF to essentially the project area, particularly since the state sits on land that can't be taxed and relies on city services, but habitually under-contributes to the costs and burden.

[I miss RVA]

3 hours ago, vaceltic said:

A new Richmond arena is not getting built anytime soon unless anyone knows a billionaire benefactor who is going to pay for it themselves. Call your Board of Supervisors in Chesterfield and Henrico and ask them for one.

There are only two options. Renovate it and operate as the Scope and Hampton Coliseum do or demolish it and don't have one. With the second option, there's almost two extra parcels that can be activated onto the tax rolls - resolving arguments Stoney made about needing more taxable parcels downtown.  The second option IS in play here.

This is exactly why Richmond isn't taken seriously as a "major" city. The last time I was in Charlotte I was chit-chatting with some locals and mentioned I was from Richmond. They laughed and said something to the effect of what a "cute" town Richmond is and welcomed me to "the big time" (as in Charlotte). They shut up when i told them I live in Chicago and visited Charlotte to "get away from the big city".

celtic - please enlighten me on how other cities manage to build high-capacity, state-of-the-art arenas without a Daddy Warbucks great uncle to leave them a fortune and not pony up a penny of public money. What's their secret? VERY few (if any) cities have  a Jerry Jones or a late Jack Kent Cooke (peace be upon him) to personally finance large arena/stadium projects with their own money.

58 minutes ago, Brent114 said:

BTW, Tesla would fund their own development.  NH was no Tesla. 

 

 

And how many cities have major arenas or stadiums that are fully privately funded? The number of deep pockets like Jerry Jones or the late Jack Kent Cooke are extremely few and far between.

[I miss RVA]

1 hour ago, Icetera said:

If it was anyone but Jemal I may still be excited about this and would love to see the potential of a heavy-retrofit to the coliseum.

I would agree with you on the refit ONLY if whoever took on the project could somehow figure out how to magically add about 6,000 seats to the facility. The gutting that would be needed to make the Coliseum into a top-tier arena would cost almost as much as tearing it down and starting from scratch, which I still hold is what is needed.

Edited February 25, 2020 by I miss RVA

[I miss RVA]

4 hours ago, DowntownCoruscant said:

So there’s this episode of The Office where Dwight convinces Andy to accept a low-ball offer for his Xterra, then turns around and sells it for a magnificent sum....

Honestly, if Douglas were to buy up all the land and then sell it off to a consortium of deep-pocket developers -- at a handy profit -- and said developers then ratcheted up some huge, high-density, high-impact projects (office towers, a high-capacity premium hotel, high-density residential towers, mass-transit-hub, retail, entertainment, etc.) - I honestly wouldn't mind. The sticking point is obviously the arena. Seems like how to get that developed is about as easy as splitting the sea or finding the holy grail.

Maybe the old Richmond Arena should have been renovated 50 years ago and never torn down. 

[Henrico Weather]

1 hour ago, Brent114 said:

And how can you possibly know the details of this offer? 

I don't know the details. But a LOT can be extrapolated by the low-ball offer and the laughable idea that the undersized, hulking bucket of rust can somehow be "renovated" to modern standards  and capacity. Lipstick on a dying pig.

[DalWill]

55 minutes ago, I miss RVA said:

Honestly, if Douglas were to buy up all the land and then sell it off to a consortium of deep-pocket developers -- at a handy profit -- and said developers then ratcheted up some huge, high-density, high-impact projects (office towers, a high-capacity premium hotel, high-density residential towers, mass-transit-hub, retail, entertainment, etc.) - I honestly wouldn't mind. The sticking point is obviously the arena. Seems like how to get that developed is about as easy as splitting the sea or finding the holy grail.

Maybe the old Richmond Arena should have been renovated 50 years ago and never torn down. 

That's only iIf you can get council members and citizens on the same page to realize it takes MONEY  that the city GENERATES to upgrade the maintenance of the facilities. Pretty much the equivalent of "It's your property, take care of it".  Remember the Richmond Braves situation in 2008?? 

[vaceltic]

3 hours ago, Icetera said:

Richmond is currently the only Top 50 MSA without a functional arena (since I was corrected on Dayton), or a significant one within its CSA, so we would be the first example.   Chattanooga (#100) is the only other within the Top 100.

Richmond is also probably the only MSA with FOUR functioning ones of all sizes within a 100-mile radius. A fifth WOULD BE functioning if the idiot Stoney didn’t unilaterally decide to close the one we had! 

[Icetera]

9 minutes ago, vaceltic said:

Richmond is also probably the only MSA with FOUR functioning ones of all sizes within a 100-mile radius. A fifth WOULD BE functioning if the idiot Stoney didn’t unilaterally decide to close the one we had! 

Good point.  Given their proximity, we can get rid of the Diamond, theaters, and museums as well.

[vaceltic]

39 minutes ago, Icetera said:

Good point.  Given their proximity, we can get rid of the Diamond, theaters, and museums as well.

Um, pretty sure the State of Virginia, by way of VCU, will be helping pay for the majority of the Diamond's replacement in partnership with the Flying Squirrels.

And where are these city-funded $300 million theaters and museums  you are talking about?  A new $126 million expansion of the VMFA is about to create two football fields worth of space and is mostly state and privately funded. 

Oh yeah, theres this too: Richmond only contributed 20% of the total renovation costs for the last Altria Theater renovation.

Edited February 25, 2020 by vaceltic

[Icetera]

14 minutes ago, vaceltic said:

Um, pretty sure the State of Virginia, by way of VCU, will be helping pay for the majority of the Diamond's replacement in partnership with the Flying Squirrels.

And where are these city-funded $300 million theaters and museums  you are talking about?  A new $126 million expansion of the VMFA is about to create two football fields worth of space and is mostly state and privately funded. 

Oh yeah, theres this too: Richmond only contributed 20% of the total renovation costs for the last Altria Theater renovation.

State tax money is still our tax money.  Tax money should only be used for schools and roads!

We especially should not be raising "temporary" taxes for entertainment venues, such as arenas and performing arts centers.

[Icetera]

In seriousness though, looking into the Altria renovation, it used $31 mil (50%) from historic tax credits, $16 mil from the city (including tax forgiveness), and $14 mil from investors.  The theater also switched to tax-exempt that is another $600k out of city coffers per year.  I wonder if Jemal is hoping to try for historic tax credits and keep the property tax-exempt as well?  If the Altria cost $60 mil to renovate then the coliseum must be closer to $100-150 mil.

[vaceltic]

25 minutes ago, Icetera said:

In seriousness though, looking into the Altria renovation, it used $31 mil (50%) from historic tax credits, $16 mil from the city (including tax forgiveness), and $14 mil from investors.  The theater also switched to tax-exempt that is another $600k out of city coffers per year.  I wonder if Jemal is hoping to try for historic tax credits and keep the property tax-exempt as well?  If the Altria cost $60 mil to renovate then the coliseum must be closer to $100-150 mil.

Navy Hill is a federally designated Opportunity Zone, which means any developer who acquires the land can potentially do this (from the Tax Policy Center):

"Permanent exclusion of taxable income on new gains. For investments held for at least 10 years, investors pay no taxes on any capital gains produced through their investment in Opportunity Funds (the investment vehicle that invests in Opportunity Zones)."

Any developer attempting to swindle the city out of this land (as NHDC and Jemal have been trying to do) I think is largely due to the above. City leaders better not be stupid and give away the land like Stoney almost did.

It IS valuable and it WILL garner serious interest with SERIOUS offers.

"State tax money is still our tax money.  Tax money should only be used for schools and roads!" - This opinion doesn't reflect the majority of Virginians. Amazon HQ anyone?

Edited February 25, 2020 by vaceltic

[I miss RVA]

3 hours ago, Icetera said:

Good point.  Given their proximity, we can get rid of the Diamond, theaters, and museums as well.

EXACTLY!!! We don't need the Virginia Museum or the Science Museum with the Smithsonian just up the road apiece. Shut 'em down and save some huge cash!

[I miss RVA]

8 hours ago, vaceltic said:

Richmond is also probably the only MSA with FOUR functioning ones of all sizes within a 100-mile radius. A fifth WOULD BE functioning if the idiot Stoney didn’t unilaterally decide to close the one we had! 

This reminds me of a modified version of an old Richmond joke:

How many Richmonders does it take to change a light bulb?

100.

1 to actually try to change the bulb

7  to vote against the new bulb (too expensive, "but the _______!!!")

2 to vote in favor of the new bulb

20 to advocate for changing the bulb (progress!!!)

20 to kvetch about the newness/brightness of the bulb (NIMHY - Not In My House, Y'all!)

20 to protest replacing the bulb on general principle ("but the ________!!!")

30 to argue that we should keep the old  bulb we have (even though it's burned out) and to kibbitz about how great it was.

9 hours ago, DalWill said:

That's only iIf you can get council members and citizens on the same page to realize it takes MONEY  that the city GENERATES to upgrade the maintenance of the facilities. Pretty much the equivalent of "It's your property, take care of it".  Remember the Richmond Braves situation in 2008?? 

Yes - I cried about the Braves leaving town. I started going to see the Braves at PARKER FIELD. I remember the time I tripped over something, hit the deck and skinned my knee. OMG that old rust-bucket and splintery wood - thought I'd end up having to go get a tetanus shot!

Edited February 26, 2020 by I miss RVA

[I miss RVA]

2 hours ago, vaceltic said:

Um, pretty sure the State of Virginia, by way of VCU, will be helping pay for the majority of the Diamond's replacement in partnership with the Flying Squirrels.

And where are these city-funded $300 million theaters and museums  you are talking about?  A new $126 million expansion of the VMFA is about to create two football fields worth of space and is mostly state and privately funded. 

Oh yeah, theres this too: Richmond only contributed 20% of the total renovation costs for the last Altria Theater renovation.

WHY is there even ONE PENNY of state or city tax money going to these venues?  Have they no memberships? Have they no private sources of revenue?

BUT THE SCHOOLS!!!!

Not only that - how many FUNCTIONING museums and I-MAX theaters are there within a 100-mile radius? Isn't what's in D.C. or Norfolk good enough? If Richmonders want to enjoy these forms of entertainment, they should be good soldiers and DRIVE 90 or 100 miles to venues in cities that have a justifiable reason for having these kinds of places. Obviously, Richmond no longer qualifies.

[DalWill]

21 minutes ago, I miss RVA said:

Yes - I cried about the Braves leaving town. I started going to see the Braves at PARKER FIELD. I remember the time I tripped over something, hit the deck and skinned my knee. OMG that old rust-bucket and splintery wood - thought I'd end up having to go get a tetanus shot!

You cried about it? Whoa I didn't know it was that deep for you. Anyway, I think we can both agree that there's a sense of entitlement coming from the influence of constituents  when these decisions are made (on the flip-side, the same could be said about developers too) . I find that to be reckless and unacceptable.