Orlando Museum of Art Downtown property?

[dcluley98]

It's a leverage ploy.  Saying that now for the humdrum and backlash when everybody says "no, you can't move out to the boonies, nobody will go there" and lot's of press coverage. Then say, well, why doesn't somebody donate the land or donate a lot of money so we can buy the land and build there. Classic press stunt to get the community activated. It is absurd that they would not be able to find a suitable location. There are tons of them. What he is really saying is "we can't afford a suitable location" and hoping the press drives public outcry drives donation/action by the city/county, local politicians and donors to try to create momentum to put it somewhere downtown or expand their existing location. 

[spenser1058]

18 minutes ago, dcluley98 said:

It's a leverage ploy.  Saying that now for the humdrum and backlash when everybody says "no, you can't move out to the boonies, nobody will go there" and lot's of press coverage. Then say, well, why doesn't somebody donate the land or donate a lot of money so we can buy the land and build there. Classic press stunt to get the community activated. It is absurd that they would not be able to find a suitable location. There are tons of them. What he is really saying is "we can't afford a suitable location" and hoping the press drives public outcry drives donation/action by the city/county, local politicians and donors to try to create momentum to put it somewhere downtown or expand their existing location. 

A great point. Current exec Glen Gentele came in a few years back to replace Marena Grant Morissey, who retired after running OMA since God was a child.

Not unlike Ron Zook replacing Steve Spurrier, it was a hard act to follow.Almost immediately, Glen decided to make a splash by currying favor with the Downtown Crowd (I was once a card-carrying member so I harbor no ill will toward them) and dangling a downtown location in front of them.

Well, here we are several years later and we’re still waiting. To borrow another football analogy, this seems like a Hail Mary to once again claim relevance for OMA and its CEO.

dcluley is likely right on the money here.

Edited January 16, 2019 by spenser1058

[JFW657]

27 minutes ago, spenser1058 said:

It interests me this fascination with downtown.

Imagine a building even larger than the current OMA on the priciest real estate in the area for an organization that’s already acknowledged funding challenges and it’s understandable why this has dragged out for several years now.

Loch Haven has long been the arts and sciences center of the community and is becoming more and more urban every day. It too has rail right there.

A visit to OMA at Loch Haven can also incorporate visits to the science museum, the ballet, several theater groups plus nearby Leu Gardens.

in fact, the visual arts are clustered in downtown Winter Park and Loch Haven is just a short SunRail  (if we are doomed not to have light rail) or Lynx trip away or, God forbid, just a hop, skip and a jump away for those evil cretins with cars.

Best of all, Orlando owns the land already. I’m interested why there seems to be no offer on the table for expansion there.

One of our most successful arts events, the Orlando Fringe Festival, left downtown for Loch Haven several years back and has been growing ever since.

For those who think other cities wouldn’t do such a thing, please see the High Museum of Art in Atlanta. It’s not downtown but in Midtown, several miles north.

No one is more committed to downtown Orlando than I am (having lived downtown for the better part of 30 years). In this case, however, what was known for years as the Loch Haven Art Center is right where it belongs.

Couldn't agree more. Loch Haven is the perfect spot.

And that business about having no room to expand is hogwash.

All they need to do is step out their back door and take a few steps south.

[dcluley98]

Us marketing people aren't as stoopid as we look. 

[spenser1058]

BTW, if you’ve been wondering how Loch Haven Park came to be, you can thank The Great Depression.

Looking for a way to boost Orlando in the midst of a horrible economy, local leaders came upon the idea of an exposition (a lower-budget version of a world’s fair). After procuring the land (which may have belonged to Dr. Phillips - he once ran a facility at Princeton and Orange), they set to work but for whatever reason couldn’t make it work. The land ended up with the City.

Ironically, the High Museum in Atlanta and the Parthenon in Nashville (which houses a gallery of its own), are both located nearby or at sites of similar expositions that actually took place. 

The Cotton States Exposition in Atlanta gave way to Piedmont Park and the Tennessee Centennial Exposition in Nashville became today’s Centennial Park.

So you see, we’re In good company...

Edited January 16, 2019 by spenser1058

[orlandouprise]

I would love next to DPAC or Lake Eola somehow, but replacing Bob Carr with a brand new state of the art OMA is not a bad option. As much as I love LN, this belongs in the city center.

If this moves to Lake Nona, IMO, watch out.  Lake Nona will be in play to become the next St. Pete to Orlando's Tampa. I can see LN in 30 years having a very nice skyline and a direct rail line to MCO

[Kaz]

Option #1 of course should be to expand the existing location.  Not going to argue that point at all.  

 

It’s great to have the OMA in tandem with the science center. I recently visited the art museums in both Phoenix and Denver.  Both were high quality and much nicer than what we have here. Denver’s in particular had a very kid friendly feel with art supplies in every gallery.  I didn’t care for the modern exterior much but they made the most of their limited collection. 

[jliv]

What exactly does the City of Orlando plan to do with this plot of land then???  (And why is Joe Lewis so anti-urban?  He built his initial wealth in London, innit?)

[orlandouprise]

I just think a more visible "in your face" locations reminds the locals this still exists. Also a central location like the Bob Carr site could get visitors from out of town. Loch Haven is great, but its tucked away and not seen.

[spenser1058]

18 minutes ago, jliv said:

What exactly does the City of Orlando plan to do with this plot of land then???  (And why is Joe Lewis so anti-urban?  He built his initial wealth in London, innit?)

I don’t think he’s anti-urban, he’s just part of Tavistock, and to their credit, they’re all in about what they’re doing out there.

In a very real sense (albeit on a much smaller scale), they’re doing the same type of thing Walt envisioned with EPCOT.

I don’t fault him for the offer, I just don’t think it’s right for the community.

Edited January 16, 2019 by spenser1058

[gibby]

It's 2.5 miles from downtown Atlanta to the High Museum.  It's 2.7 miles from downtown Orlando to Loch Haven Park.  I think Loch Haven is a good location, but the City needs to help encourage some complimentary uses nearby.

[orlandouprise]

Don't think the Atl comparisons match up since Midtown is WAY more urban and dense than LHP. Totally different feel. Much more accessible and visible to all in the city.

[spenser1058]

6 minutes ago, orlandouprise said:

Don't think the Atl comparisons match up since Midtown is WAY more urban and dense than LHP. Totally different feel. Much more accessible and visible to all in the city.

But it wasn’t when the High got there. Ivanhoe’s gonna look totally different 10 years from now.

In any event, an arts Park is a unique wonderful thing that sets us apart.

Granted, for years they just treated it as a drive-through, but that’s imminently fixable.

Edited January 16, 2019 by spenser1058

[spenser1058]

uprise, I think our difference in perspectives may come from the fact that I first visited Atlanta in 1970. In those days, Midtown was more like OBT than Midtown Manhattan. Lenox Square was more like Parkwood Plaza than Millenia on steroids (it didn’t become a mall until the late ‘70’s.)

It was my first city of any size to spend time in, and I adopted it as my own. Doing politics across the South, I made it my home base (the fact that in the ‘70’s and ‘80’s it had one of the few gayborhoods in the South certainly helped :-)

As a result, I know just how much Atlanta looked like us and how we’ve both changed over the years. Atlanta has the benefit of being THE city in Georgia, where we’re just one of several in Florida. Orlando’s major industries are also more spread out than Atlanta’s.

For the most part, we’re tracking a lot of the stuff they did but 25 years or so behind. Don’t worry, though, we’ll get there. By the same token, when we do, I want us to look like Orlando, not a poor copy of someplace else.

[dcluley98]

Bob Carr site would be fantastic!  Right in between Creative Village and Lynx Central/Sunrail (and maybe OBE or BRT System), right next to and visibility from I-4, Under-I park, and right on Livingston, the one with dedicated east/west bike lanes and soon to be anchor of HUGE new block of proposed apartments in Zoi House, X-Orlando, and Radius.  Fantastic location. Probably even better than next to DPAC or Lake Eola, IMO. 

Edited January 17, 2019 by dcluley98

[gibby]

1 hour ago, orlandouprise said:

Don't think the Atl comparisons match up since Midtown is WAY more urban and dense than LHP. Totally different feel. Much more accessible and visible to all in the city.

It's much more urban now but it wasn't much different than the LHP area (now) in the late 1970's and early 1980's.  The MARTA station really changed that area but it's really grown in the last few years, especially since they added the 17th Street overpass.  It's still only one block away from a single family neighborhood.

[JFW657]

43 minutes ago, dcluley98 said:

Bob Carr site would be fantastic!  Right in between Creative Village and Lynx Central/Sunrail (and maybe OBE or BRT System), right next to and visibility from I-4, Under-I park, and right on Livingston, the one with dedicated east/west bike lanes and soon to be anchor of HUGE new block of proposed apartments in Zoi House, X-Orlando, and Radius.  Fantastic location. Probably even better than next to DPAC or Lake Eola, IMO. 

Too cramped and too surrounded by noise, traffic, concrete and asphalt IMO.

LHP by comparison is quiet, peaceful and serene. Surrounded by brick streets, shady oak trees and other similar attractions/amenities close by in a park-like atmosphere.

[spenser1058]

14 minutes ago, JFW657 said:

Too cramped and too surrounded by noise, traffic, concrete and asphalt IMO.

LHP by comparison is quiet, peaceful and serene. Surrounded by brick streets, shady oak trees and other similar attractions/amenities close by in a park-like atmosphere.

I know, it seems almost idyllic. I can’t say I understand the opposition.

It definitely needs to be updated to be more pedestrian-accessible but they’ve already done some work on that.

Total fantasy: building a small canal under 17-92 to Lake Formosa on the other side and have boat access to Leu Gardens with small craft like the ones on WP’s Scenic Boat Tour. Or something a tad larger that could store bikes and you could then ride to the Audubon Park Garden District.

For that matter, go west on the lake to Ivanhoe Village.

Oh my, a boy can dream!

Edited January 17, 2019 by spenser1058

[JFW657]

2 hours ago, spenser1058 said:

I know, it seems almost idyllic. I can’t say I understand the opposition.

It definitely needs to be updated to be more pedestrian-accessible but they’ve already done some work on that.

Total fantasy: building a small canal under 17-92 to Lake Formosa on the other side and have boat access to Leu Gardens with small craft like the ones on WP’s Scenic Boat Tour. Or something a tad larger that could store bikes and you could then ride to the Audubon Park Garden District.

For that matter, go west on the lake to Ivanhoe Village.

Oh my, a boy can dream!

Not sure if I'm understanding you correctly, but Lake Formosa is on the same side of 17-92 as OMA/LHP. Lake Rowena is the one on the other side and there's already small boat access from one to the other underneath the roadway.

I remember back around the early-mid 80's when  the walkway along the north side of the lake was a actually small dirt road you could drive on and park facing the water. Or launch a canoe, as my friend and I did, then paddled underneath 17-92 and did some fishing in Lake Rowena.

I also occasionally used to pull up in that same spot and eat lunch in my car.

[WAJAS]

I think the problem here is that LHP is to far removed from most of the pedestrian traffic near Orange.  Not to mention SunRail is a rather lengthy and confusing walk from the park for those not from DTO. I think the proposed Lymmo North line from a few years back would help out with that, but there’s zero funding for it.

The Bob Carr location, while good, removed the museum from the other cultural amenities in LHP. They’re close proximity encourages people to hang out and experience all of them, increasing the traffic to each, at least theoretically

[dcluley98]

I respectfully disagree. The majority of new traffic would be from non-residents. Honestly, residents only go a couple times, if at all. Sure, there are a small group of die-hard arts fans, but the main draw would be from tourists, visitors from out of town, and peripheral activity from other events. I think that a DT location right next to I-4 and SunRail would be ideal, and especially since it is closer to other amenities like local DT Hotels, Amway Center, Orlando City Stadium, Citrus Bowl, DPAC, Creative Village with the constant turnover of students that will be occurring as well as family and friends that may come to visit them, and of course easier to get to from I-Drive/Theme Parks/Convention Center. 

How many people visiting from out of town do you all think even know the museum complex at Lock Haven Park even exists? 

THIS IS THE PROBLEM.  There is not a lot of revenue or even recognition of the current museum of art because the location is so low profile. Moving it DT would instantly improve that, IMO.  

Put it at the Bob Carr site with a stylish architecture building and apparent signage and wayfinding from other local amenities and you instantly increase the awareness and traffic a TON.  

Edited January 17, 2019 by dcluley98

[spenser1058]

7 hours ago, JFW657 said:

Not sure if I'm understanding you correctly, but Lake Formosa is on the same side of 17-92 as OMA/LHP. Lake Rowena is the one on the other side and there's already small boat access from one to the other underneath the roadway.

I remember back around the early-mid 80's when  the walkway along the north side of the lake was a actually small dirt road you could drive on and park facing the water. Or launch a canoe, as my friend and I did, then paddled underneath 17-92 and did some fishing in Lake Rowena.

I also occasionally used to pull up in that same spot and eat lunch in my car.

Thank you, I was trying to remember the name of the lake on the east side and on Google maps it seemed to indicate both sides were Formosa. I thought that sounded wrong but who am I to question Google?

Anyway, what I meant was a passage large enough for regular commercial use. The approach to the Andrews Causeway along there seems sort of low for regular use.

[spenser1058]

6 hours ago, dcluley98 said:

I respectfully disagree. The majority of new traffic would be from non-residents. Honestly, residents only go a couple times, if at all. Sure, there are a small group of die-hard arts fans, but the main draw would be from tourists, visitors from out of town, and peripheral activity from other events. I think that a DT location right next to I-4 and SunRail would be ideal, and especially since it is closer to other amenities like local DT Hotels, Amway Center, Orlando City Stadium, Citrus Bowl, DPAC, Creative Village with the constant turnover of students that will be occurring as well as family and friends that may come to visit them, and of course easier to get to from I-Drive/Theme Parks/Convention Center. 

How many people visiting from out of town do you all think even know the museum complex at Lock Haven Park even exists? 

THIS IS THE PROBLEM.  There is not a lot of revenue or even recognition of the current museum of art because the location is so low profile. Moving it DT would instantly improve that, IMO.  

Put it at the Bob Carr site with a stylish architecture building and apparent signage and wayfinding from other local amenities and you instantly increase the awareness and traffic a TON.  

If we had a huge hue and cry from visitors to go downtown we’d have a lot more hotels and much higher occupancy.

Our downtown is splendid for residents and other locals but mostly ignored by the rest of the world. And if you marketed LHP to the folks who frequent most museums (who skew older), I have little doubt they’d prefer its park setting to the cacophony west of I4. (Just listen to the complaining of regular Orlando Phil patrons regarding Bob Carr.)

Heck, now that I’m 60 I guess I’m officially one of the geezers. I’d tell all you young whippersnappers to get off my lawn but living in an apartment it’s not mine *sigh*.

Edited January 17, 2019 by spenser1058

[orlandouprise]

8 hours ago, dcluley98 said:

I respectfully disagree. The majority of new traffic would be from non-residents. Honestly, residents only go a couple times, if at all. Sure, there are a small group of die-hard arts fans, but the main draw would be from tourists, visitors from out of town, and peripheral activity from other events. I think that a DT location right next to I-4 and SunRail would be ideal, and especially since it is closer to other amenities like local DT Hotels, Amway Center, Orlando City Stadium, Citrus Bowl, DPAC, Creative Village with the constant turnover of students that will be occurring as well as family and friends that may come to visit them, and of course easier to get to from I-Drive/Theme Parks/Convention Center. 

How many people visiting from out of town do you all think even know the museum complex at Lock Haven Park even exists? 

THIS IS THE PROBLEM.  There is not a lot of revenue or even recognition of the current museum of art because the location is so low profile. Moving it DT would instantly improve that, IMO.  

Put it at the Bob Carr site with a stylish architecture building and apparent signage and wayfinding from other local amenities and you instantly increase the awareness and traffic a TON.  

Completely agree. It is one more step towards creating a DT core that  gives tourists something to do. Imagine checking into a DT  hotel and asking a concierge if  there is anything to do or see DT?

Now the hotel can say yes! There is Lake Eola where you can paddle across the lake, there is the History Center, there is the DPAC for a show, there is the Magic Ent Complex for some shopping/ent. options, There is MUSEUM OF ART, there is a new HOLOCAUST MUSEUM, underI-4 park/food trucks , Creative Village Park/UCF Campus/ a HUGE MARKET. /FOOD HALL at old OUC building (praying), etc, etc  

Now we are creating a reason to come DT or at least giving the tourist something to  enjoy while here. Throw in carts on DT streets that sell iconic Orlando turkey legs, a streetcar system, and an observation tower west of I-4 and you have got one hell of a DT for (world cup, pro bowl, business travelers) visitors

[codypet]

15 hours ago, jliv said:

What exactly does the City of Orlando plan to do with this plot of land then???  (And why is Joe Lewis so anti-urban?  He built his initial wealth in London, innit?)

Huh.  I didn't realize that the property appraiser site showed the old Princeton Alignment still platted out.