505 CST - 545 feet - 45 Floors

[Guest]

Not as outlandish as you might think. Look at Mobile, Alabama of all places. It managed to beat Nashville's then-tallest L&C in height in 1965 (breaking the 400-foot mark), and they outstripped our "Batman" Tower in 2007 with the RSA-Battle House Tower at 745 feet. Knoxville could just as easily pull off a surprise. We broke 400 over 45 years ago, Knoxville has as well. We can't even break 500 feet with occupied floors (excluding Batman's spires). Omaha, Tulsa, OK City, Little Rock, Louisville, et al, all have us beat. Consider we were set to jump to above 1,000 feet with the Signature and we're still stuck.

This isn't even the same financial planet that it was is 2007. RSA looks completely out of place in low slung Mobile. Costs of construction and requirements for equity now make speculative projects of that type nearly impossible.

What are Knoxville's lease rates for Class A space and is there any demand for more? It is a college town so apartment rates are depressed below any reasonable rate of return for a high rise.

[NashRugger]

I was going to say, all the cities mentioned earlier had their buildings built by corporate HQ at some time or another. Knoxville is hardly on the radar on any big time relocations or corporate expansions to justify a tower downtown and that likely won't change.

[Guest]

The minimum standard office plate has changed over the years. Office floors in excess of 18,000 SF used to be rare. Now we are pushing 30,000 with regularity. There are several reasons for this, but mostly because of the change from closed wall to open office.

Many older tall buildings in 2nd and 3rd tier cities were constructed by the big local bank or insurance companies, most of which are now gobbled up the big corporate conglomerates now. These buildings weren't about multi-tenanting, they were built by a single user. They were also built up vertically to get the number of closed walled offices they needed.

Every project has to be financially justified now with a lower threshold of risk. Don't hold your breath if you are in Mobile or Knoxville for another skyscraper in the distant future.

[titanhog]

So...will it be fairly easy for Tony to get the $90 Mil construction loan?

[samsonh]

No it won't be easy. Nothing is easy for him in terms of financing(for fairly obvious reasons).

The obsession with height is so strange to me. I want sustainable development, where everyone wins. If I wanted tall buildings I'd move to Chicago or New York.

[BnaBreaker]

No it won't be easy. Nothing is easy for him in terms of financing(for fairly obvious reasons).

The obsession with height is so strange to me. I want sustainable development, where everyone wins. If I wanted tall buildings I'd move to Chicago or New York.

 

Obsession, at least for me, is overstating it quite significantly.  If I had to choose between a nice skyline and a high quality pedestrian environment at street level, I'd take the latter 100 times out of 100.  That being said though, that doesn't mean I don't enjoy a pretty skyline.  Make no mistake about it, I'm of the opinion that good skylines are nothing but aesthetics.  But I'm still fond of them. 

[Skyscrapergeek]

200' from nothing leaves nothing...but a parking garage.

[Vrtigo]

Seriously, folks. I don't think any of us are legitimately upset/angry/heartbroken/ashes-and-sackcloth-mourning that this thing just got a haircut. It's just a case of having to change our expectations. Kind of like what you had to do two weeks ago when your NCAA bracket got trashed two days in.

 

Sure, we're all disappointed that it won't be as tall as it could have been. Sure, we've had to adjust from a seriously grand proposal to several stages of decreasing moderation. But are we all equally thrilled that we will at least get something on this site? Absolutely.

 

Can we quit painting those of the group that actually voice their opinions as emotional, over-reactive, unreasonable zealots? This should be a place where it's okay for someone to say "I wish it was different" without getting called out as an unrealistic daydreamer. Believe it or not, it's possible to be happy for the way things are while still hoping for something better.

[Nashville Cliff]

There's opinion and then there's height fetish. I'm cool with both, but I'm not going to pretend I understand the intensity of emotion about the latter.

[nashmoney]

Seriously, folks. I don't think any of us are legitimately upset/angry/heartbroken/ashes-and-sackcloth-mourning that this thing just got a haircut. It's just a case of having to change our expectations. Kind of like what you had to do two weeks ago when your NCAA bracket got trashed two days in.

Sure, we're all disappointed that it won't be as tall as it could have been. Sure, we've had to adjust from a seriously grand proposal to several stages of decreasing moderation. But are we all equally thrilled that we will at least get something on this site? Absolutely.

Can we quit painting those of the group that actually voice their opinions as emotional, over-reactive, unreasonable zealots? This should be a place where it's okay for someone to say "I wish it was different" without getting called out as an unrealistic daydreamer. Believe it or not, it's possible to be happy for the way things are while still hoping for something better.

Amen brother. Could not have said it better

[chris holman]

another thing that we're forgetting Tony would have loved to built that 70 stores tower but the money wasn't there so we had to redesign the building the new redesigned it again because of the recession but trust me if it was left up to him it will be the tallest building in the south

Edited April 3, 2015 by chris holman

[gannman]

I would rather him scale back than to start with an underwhelming design. We will end up with the best possible project given the circumstances. 

[smeagolsfree]

I am glad we are getting this built, but like many of you, I was hoping for a new tallest. But, as many of you have said, this is better than just a parking garage at the site.

[TNinVB]

I wonder now if we'll ever get a building that surpasses the Batman building and if so, I wonder if it would be a office building, hotel, or mixed use?

[Vrtigo]

I wonder now if we'll ever get a building that surpasses the Batman building and if so, I wonder if it would be a office building, hotel, or mixed use?

 

Certainly we will. It has just changed from "imminent construction" to "wishful thinking". Remember, we didn't even have a proposal with any real chance of success until this time last year(?) when 505 was first proposed. We'll just have to wait another year or two until some other bigwig comes along.

 

Or maybe even Tony has something else up his sleeve... Who knows?

[chris holman]

nashvill e's tallest doesn't technically have to be in the dead center of the city look at Chicago look at New York there tallest are not in the center of the city

I'm not sure when another proposal even this tall will be on the table again but that doesn't mean it Nashville can't get a superstar

[Guest]

Lots of opportunity going forward. Nashville's runway is very very long.

[Hey_Hey]

The best thing for a new tallest would be for 505CST to be a runaway success. It also needs to be totally unaffordable so that a future new tallest can be supported by an appropriate price per sq foot (which may not be ideal btw). As the price per sq foot rises bolder projects can become reality. Nashville is just beginning to scratch the surface with living in the CBD and height is inevitable.

Edited April 3, 2015 by Hey_Hey

[markhollin]

Certainly we will. It has just changed from "imminent construction" to "wishful thinking". Remember, we didn't even have a proposal with any real chance of success until this time last year(?) when 505 was first proposed. We'll just have to wait another year or two until some other bigwig comes along.

 

Or maybe even Tony has something else up his sleeve... Who knows?

When we met Tony a few months ago at our Saturday morning get-together, he said he still has the desire to build a large hotel…and that he still very much wants that property at 8th and Demonbreun that First Baptist holds.

[bigeasy]

So how long till the next rendering comes out? He seems to be pumping them out faster now. We only have to wait a few months between renderings when it used to take a year or so.

 

 

 

Just sitting here imagining what any city could look like if it had all of the past renderings built.

 

Edited April 5, 2015 by bigeasy

[Guest]

So how long till the next rendering comes out? He seems to be pumping them out faster now. We only have to wait a few months between renderings when it used to take a year or so.

Just sitting here imagining what any city could look like if it had all of the past renderings built.

He has only released new renderings as the building has changed.

[Hey_Hey]

We have people who complain when developers don't release updated renderings because they aren't being transparent enough (Virgin Hotel and Westin). Now people are complaining about a developer being too transparent by releasing updated images as the project evolves to face market and financing realities.

 

For anyone who has done work on even a single family renovation/investment the plans can change dramatically as time goes on and costs become more apparent. In fact, costs can't be fully calculated without a set of plans in front of a contractor.  Now multiply the complexity of a single family residence by about 1000 and you are in the ball park for a highrise residential tower.  Tony G simply chooses to inform the public about these changes because, in my opinion, he actually does care about Nashville and its residents and wants them to be informed.

[Paramount747]

I have been pondering this for a few days. I wanted to collect my thoughts.  I came to a conclusion many years ago that Nashville's prospect of getting a building over 600 feet WITHOUT SPIRES is something that would probably never happen. I cannot fully explain why cities like Oklahoma City, Mobile, Omaha, Louisville, Tulsa and a few others have an actual building taller than Nashville. The ATT Tower without spires is 527 feet, and the highest occupied floor is around the 430 foot mark.

 

With that being said there are many reasons that those aforementioned cities have NOT BEAT Nashville as FMJ contends. And, while I respect my friend Davy the following reasons are why he is wrong. Those cities do not come close to beating Nashville.

 

1) We have a national brand and have had one for decades. 2 Million visitors are year proves that.

 

2) The Nashville Cats were not the Omaha Cats, or the Louisville Cats. Bob Dylan recorded with the Nashville Cats.

 

3) ABC runs a show every week called Nashville. It's not called Louisville.

 

4) It's the  NFL Tennessee Titans, not the Mobile or Tulsa Titans.

 

5) It's the NHL Nashville Predators, not the Oklahoma City Predators.

 

6) Elvis came to Nashville, not Louisville, Omaha, Oklahoma City, Tulsa, or Mobile.

 

7) Jack White, The Black Keys, Robert Plant, and many others moved here, not those cities.

 

8) Nashville has 140 buildings over 10 stories, they don't. Not even close.

 

9) Nashville has 13 major colleges and universities including Vanderbilt who is ranked in the top 25 every year.

 

10)  Most of my friends and neighbors are artists, musicians, actors, dancers, models, photographers, film makers. They moved to Nashville, not Omaha.

 

The list could go on and on why Nashville is better. The only people who care about tall buildings are people like us. We have to remember what our population base is. We don't have the population or as Tony has discovered, enough people to buy a 5 million dollar condo on the 50th floor 650-700 feet up.

 

45 floors of apartments is more attractive to banks. Apartments are turnkey and cash flow is constant. There is always a demand for apartments over condos, and many people under 40 now are choosing to rent, so there are many economic and demographic factors at work here.

 

Am I disappointed? Yes. Am I upset, not in the least bit.

 

What do I see happening? I see Nashville following the Portland , Oregon model. Density. Density.Density over heigh for the sheer purpose of height.

 

Although I like tall buildings for the sculpture and artistic value of buildings like the Shard in London, or the Freedom Tower in NYC, Nashville's architectural masterpieces can come from civic buildings, parks, art. sculpture, and pedestrian bridges.

 

Final thought on this matter: The ATT Tower may be our tallest building for many years to come. Studies have shown that there is a limit to how high people want to reside, or stay in a hotel and residential buildings like condos, apartments and hotels have to be utilitarian in design to make them economically viable.

 

Keep in mind the majority of major tall structures in America housed insurance companies, banks, oil companies, telecommunications companies, defense contractors and the like, all of which do not have a major presence in Nashville.

 

So in conclusion, I would rather have the other aspects of Nashville and have a tallest building of 617 feet, rather than be like Omaha, Nebraska with a 600+ foot tower and nothing else. Who vacations in Omaha? Nobody!

 

Those are fine cities in their own right, but Nashville is something special. We don't need super tall structures to be special. America is not a country that shows economic strength by building skyscrapers anymore. In fact when I was last in NYC, what impressed me the most was not all of the new towers, but Smalls Jazz Club in the basement of a 3 story walk-up on West 10th in the Village.

 

Nashville is not a skyscraper city, and never will be. Breaking 600 is a pipe dream. Maybe it will happen, but I am enjoying the city as it is now, and I no longer worry about such things.

Edited April 5, 2015 by Paramount747

[rookzie]

nashvill e's tallest doesn't technically have to be in the dead center of the city look at Chicago look at New York there tallest are not in the center of the city

I'm not sure when another proposal even this tall will be on the table again but that doesn't mean it Nashville can't get a superstar

 

I get your point that a city's tallest or cluster of tallest (even if a tallest might be elsewhere, as in NYC), but in general, Chicago, just as most Lake cities (Great Lakes), tended to have grown historically with the tallest within the CBD, located next to a natural barrier, with Toledo being an exception.  Unlike inland cities like St. Louis, Louisv'l, Cincy, and Memphis, Nashville has been able to grow multilaterally, despite the presence of a commercially navigable waterway winding its way through it (even prior to the turn of the 19th c).

 

I would agree that no rule constrains the tallest as being within the CBD, and on that premise, perhaps the chances are even more favorable for of a significantly higher structure being built in mid-town or some other site of high-activity concentration, away from Nashville's DT, within the near reaches of the state house on Capitol Hill.  Palmer could have set the stage to start a precedent of clustered "tallish" structures away from DT with the stillborn WES, but effectively he did do it with Palmer Plaza, in an "un-trendy" manner.

-==-

[Hey_Hey]

I'm not bearish on the thought that Nashville will get a new tallest.  By many people's definitions this latest proposal from Tony G will actually be the tallest building in the city since it has the highest occupied floor. However, even if we we use the most common definition of height as including spires, I still think we can see a new tallest in the next few years.  All it takes is one developer  to propose a building with some combination of office, hotel, and residential in the same building and we'll see the 617 ft mark eclipsed.  505 will miss the mark by only 12%. That's in the ballpark and bodes well for taller towers in the future.