Inner Loop - CBD, Downtown, East Bank, Germantown, Gulch, Rutledge

[Baronakim]

3 hours ago, East Side Urbanite said:

T-Hog makes some great points. There are "tiers" (her word and I like it) in terms of level of usefulness/attractiveness with buildings. I would much rather see, for example, the Noel Block Garage toppled than the Customs House. Clearly. And if Noel is bulldozed and a striking, charcoal brick neo-art deco eight-story mixed-used (hotel and retail) building that nicely address Third, Church and PAlley replaces it ... I can live with that.

What bothers me, as a native Nashvillian is this: A project or acquisition is announced/reported that will involve or could involve the razing of a solid building. And then a poster (or multiple posters) on this board post about the future reinvention of the site with no mention of the value of the structure to hypothetically be lost. Mark did it with his first post regarding this building and I've seen others do it too (not picking on you, Mark, because you know I love ya and HUGELY respect your contributions to this board, the Post and our city).

I saw it with the Carmichael towers. With the Keeble building that was felled at Eighth and Demonbreun (for JWMarriott), with the Imperial House next to Saint Thomas Hospital Midtown, with the Midtown milk tanks at the Country Delite site (and that Shay referenced), etc.

There is almost an "Out with the old and in with the new" mindset some posters sometimes exhibit that somewhat diminishes the importance of these structures.

And that is my main criticism.

And on an unrelated note, Luvemtall offers a very positive karma. Thanks for your posting, L-Tall.

 

 

 

 

 

 

OK, I see a point there.  BUT.  As both an old native Nashvillian AND an architect, I want to pick the bones of the argument a bit.   The examples cited IMO are not very convincing to me at all for your argument.  One by one....     The Carmichael towers were dreadful from the gitgo, even in the opinion of the architectural firm that designed them.  I know because I was employed there at the time of those projects.  The designers wanted a much nicer design, but Vanderbilt was adament about bare bones student housing.  The same firm did the village student apartments over by Blair School of Music, as well as Blair itself and Sarattt) which shows they could design quality work.  One of the principals even drew a cartoon showing the kind of student 'cellblok" Vandy  seemed to want.  Bare concrete double tees on edge were sketched as walls, the stems serving as desk and a bunk bed above.  The Carmichael dorms were a scar on the face of campus  and West End  for over four decades.  No excuse about the uniqueness of them justified retaining them IMO.  Personally, I am not too terribly thrilled about the psuedo-historic  replacement dorms, but it is an improvement as an Ivy League image.  The Edward Durell Stone dorms demolished for the first new dorm was no great prize either regardless of his international architctural prestige.  The Keeble Methodist Publishing House was doomed from the inception of the new convention facility.  Certainly Keeble was a very fine architect, but not all of his work was of international significance.  The L&C Tower is his main work of significance.  The other main works well known here were his churches with his out of mainstream narrow, slender spires.  With the Methodist Publishing building. there was no way or justification to save it as virtually all of the surrounding sites are really vital to be built out as tall hotels to support the Center which has been IMO the principal driving force for Nashville's boom.  The Imperial House was one of the early landmark buildings by Earl Swensson and was a very striking design.  However NO residential building other than those with historical significance is going to last forever as the buildings were never designed to last both structurally or electric/mech systems.  Many of the big block residence buildings being built right now will be demolished in 50 years or so with folks then moaning about their loss.  NONE of these buildings are designed and built for great lifespans.  The Symphony buildings ESa has done ARE built to last for century + existances.  Likewise some of the early twentith centry buildings like the Louise Apartments over by Elliston Place lived on borrowed time as the could not possibly be brought up to any modern standards at all.   The Counry Delite milk tanks are a relic of mixed industrial uses that were on the perifery of the city when they were built.  The fine old residences on West End and Church WERE the suburbs of that era.  There is nothing architecturaly significant and if they somehow get saved in some arsty-fartsy fantasy part of a new complex...fine.  However they have NO real significance to Nashville history of industry comparable to the old Bessemer Steel plant complex preserved as a museum in Brimingham.   Now Neuhoff IS of significance and I am pleased to see reuse of one of my old workplaces.  The milk tanks are by scale toys IMO.  Nashville has never had a paticular regard for preserving a deal of its signifiant history.  For example, Fort Negley was totally rebuilt by the WPA but was allowed to rot to the ruin it is today.  Another example is the massive and complete destruction of the "urban renewal" blocks downtown and around Capitol Hill.  At any rate, I do not agree with an "Out with the old and in with the new" mindset but supported the demolitions of many of them.  I simply feel that revalence of many buildings both in the past and those currently existing should be judged on an individual basis, not because they are merely comfortable and familiar to some Nashvillians who demand their retention by their personal fait.  Finally, the importance of preserving the integrity of the Noel Block garage building is that, in Nashville, there still exists a clearly defined area of buildings that collectively create an image.  This is from 4th Avenue to the river and down to Commerce on the south.  This is vital to the concepts of the historic nature of the city including 2nd Avenue, the Arcade and other surviving blocks of period vintage up to and including the L&C tower in 1957.  They are just as important as the several blocks on Lower Broad around the Ryman is to the tourist industry here.  There is adequate wiggle room for reworking the existing and compatible additions, but demolition and replacement with a completly new faux replacement is just a poor option IMO.

Edited August 26, 2022 by Baronakim

[CandyAisles]

18 hours ago, East Side Urbanite said:

Do many of you know the quirky Holiday Inn building in Raleigh is about to be razed? Take a look. Ugly in many respects. BUT ... it has value for its eye-catching form (despite its being in bad shape) and its history (was the tallest building in Raleigh from1969 to 1977).

 

 

 

 

 

 

Careful now.  Don't need anyone muddying the waters there with those fine folks in Raleigh.  If you want to see the Holiday Inn Trash Can design, you may travel to Charleston, SC to see it.  I don't need both Carolinas represented for that particular design...especially when it is so problematic in addressing active street frontages.

[East Side Urbanite]

1 hour ago, Baronakim said:

OK, I see a point there.  BUT.  As both an old native Nashvillian AND an architect, I want to pick the bones of the argument a bit.   The examples cited IMO are not very convincing to me at all for your argument.  One by one....     The Carmichael towers were dreadful from the gitgo, even in the opinion of the architectural firm that designed them.  I know because I was employed there at the time of those projects.  The designers wanted a much nicer design, but Vanderbilt was adament about bare bones student housing.  The same firm did the village student apartments over by Blair School of Music, as well as Blair itself and Sarattt) which shows they could design quality work.  One of the principals even drew a cartoon showing the kind of student 'cellblok" Vandy  seemed to want.  Bare concrete double tees on edge were sketched as walls, the stems serving as desk and a bunk bed above.  The Carmichael dorms were a scar on the face of campus  and West End  for over four decades.  No excuse about the uniqueness of them justified retaining them IMO.  Personally, I am not too terribly thrilled about the psuedo-historic  replacement dorms, but it is an improvement as an Ivy League image.  The Edward Durell Stone dorms demolished for the first new dorm was no great prize either regardless of his international architctural prestige.  The Keeble Methodist Publishing House was doomed from the inception of the new convention facility.  Certainly Keeble was a very fine architect, but not all of his work was of international significance.  The L&C Tower is his main work of significance.  The other main works well known here were his churches with his out of mainstream narrow, slender spires.  With the Methodist Publishing building. there was no way or justification to save it as virtually all of the surrounding sites are really vital to be built out as tall hotels to support the Center which has been IMO the principal driving force for Nashville's boom.  The Imperial House was one of the early landmark buildings by Earl Swensson and was a very striking design.  However NO residential building other than those with historical significance is going to last forever as the buildings were never designed to last both structurally or electric/mech systems.  Many of the big block residence buildings being built right now will be demolished in 50 years or so with folks then moaning about their loss.  NONE of these buildings are designed and built for great lifespans.  The Symphony buildings ESa has done ARE built to last for century + existances.  Likewise some of the early twentith centry buildings like the Louise Apartments over by Elliston Place lived on borrowed time as the could not possibly be brought up to any modern standards at all.   The Counry Delite milk tanks are a relic of mixed industrial uses that were on the perifery of the city when they were built.  The fine old residences on West End and Church WERE the suburbs of that era.  There is nothing architecturaly significant and if they somehow get saved in some arsty-fartsy fantasy part of a new complex...fine.  However they have NO real significance to Nashville history of industry comparable to the old Bessemer Steel plant complex preserved as a museum in Brimingham.   Now Neuhoff IS of significance and I am pleased to see reuse of one of my old workplaces.  The milk tanks are by scale toys IMO.  Nashville has never had a paticular regard for preserving a deal of its signifiant history.  For example, Fort Negley was totally rebuilt by the WPA but was allowed to rot to the ruin it is today.  Another example is the massive and complete destruction of the "urban renewal" blocks downtown and around Capitol Hill.  At any rate, I do not agree with an "Out with the old and in with the new" mindset but supported the demolitions of many of them.  I simply feel that revalence of many buildings both in the past and those currently existing should be judged on an individual basis, not because they are merely comfortable and familiar to some Nashvillians who demand their retention by their personal fait.  Finally, the importance of preserving the integrity of the Noel Block garage building is that, in Nashville, there still exists a clearly defined area of buildings that collectively create an image.  This is from 4th Avenue to the river and down to Commerce on the south.  This is vital to the concepts of the historic nature of the city including 2nd Avenue, the Arcade and other surviving blocks of period vintage up to and including the L&C tower in 1957.  They are just as important as the several blocks on Lower Broad around the Ryman is to the tourist industry here.  There is adequate wiggle room for reworking the existing and compatible additions, but demolition and replacement with a completly new faux replacement is just a poor option IMO.

To be clear, and as I noted, my main point is not that any of the structures I listed deserved to be saved at all costs. I admitted the Carmichael Towers were, in many respects, horrendous. I strongly like the replacements.

Rather, my concern is that there is sometimes on this board what I feel is a failure to acknowledge the value of buildings that are going to be demolished. And a failure to see that value is not always defined by quality materials and craftsmanship but, instead, by history of usage, context in relation to nearby buildings and distinctiveness/quirkiness.

For example, the milk tanks at Country Delite. Of course they were not noteworthy as are the Sloss Factory structures in BHam. But those tanks were perhaps the only truly industrial-esque structures left in Midtown. Now they are gone. I'm not arguing they deserved to be spared. Rather, I contend their value deserved to be noted before they were felled.

Another example: The old brick structure home to the International Market on Belmont Boulevard. That building — despite its many flaws — offered a personality of sorts. It was distinctive in that a chunk of it was "swallowed" by a hill. And the history with the Mynt family and their cafe-style Thai eatery cannot be denied. Memories were made in that little building and it pained me to see it go. But the new Belmont University Fisher Center for the Performing Arts building is stupendous. I am 100 percent fine with it being there instead of the former building. Still, and as I ask of everybody, it is important to note that restaurant building had value.

This is not about what is worth saving or not. It's not about what is attractive or ugly. It is simply about fairly acknowledging building/architectural value — even if that value is only modest.

 

 

 

 

 

1 hour ago, CandyAisles said:

Careful now.  Don't need anyone muddying the waters there with those fine folks in Raleigh.  If you want to see the Holiday Inn Trash Can design, you may travel to Charleston, SC to see it.  I don't need both Carolinas represented for that particular design...especially when it is so problematic in addressing active street frontages.

Seeing now. Did not know Raleigh Holiday Inn had a twin brother in Charleston!

Edited August 26, 2022 by East Side Urbanite

[Baronakim]

52 minutes ago, East Side Urbanite said:

To be clear, and as I noted, my main point is not that any of the structures I listed deserved to be saved at all costs. I admitted the Carmichael Towers were, in many respects, horrendous. I strongly like the replacements.

Rather, my concern is that there is sometimes on this board what I feel is a failure to acknowledge the value of buildings that are going to be demolished. And a failure to see that value is not always defined by quality materials and craftsmanship but, instead, by history of usage, context in relation to nearby buildings and distinctiveness/quirkiness.

For example, the milk tanks at Country Delite. Of course they were not noteworthy as are the Sloss Factory structures in BHam. But those tanks were perhaps the only truly industrial-esque structures left in Midtown. Now they are gone. I'm not arguing they deserved to be spared. Rather, I contend their value deserved to be noted before they were felled.

Another example: The old brick structure home to the International Market on Belmont Boulevard. That building — despite its many flaws — offered a personality of sorts. It was distinctive in that a chunk of it was "swallowed" by a hill. And the history with the Mynt family and their cafe-style Thai eatery cannot be denied. Memories were made in that little building and it pained me to see it go. But the new Belmont University Fisher Center for the Performing Arts building is stupendous. I am 100 percent fine with it being there instead of the former building. Still, and as I ask of everybody, it is important to note that restaurant building had value.

This is not about what is worth saving or not. It's not about what is attractive or ugly. It is simply about fairly acknowledging building/architectural value — even if that value is only modest.

Oh yes, I fully undersood what your point of view is and found it emmenitly reasonable.  I just wanted to give a more old fellow commentary on what many other old Nashvillians are horrified with their "loss".

[East Side Urbanite]

2 minutes ago, Baronakim said:

Oh yes, I fully undersood what your point of view is and found it emmenitly reasonable.  I just wanted to give a more old fellow commentary on what many other old Nashvillians are horrified with their "loss".

[MLBrumby]

I have nothing to add to all the points made here pro/con on the topic of saving what some argue is an historical building. 

My comment here is just a throw-in as I play "What if?" about some of the purchases like this and proposals that often follow.  This developer has not disclosed yet what their plans are. Left wondering what's possible, I keep coming back to a Honky Tonk.  This jives a bit with the conversation above about this building and let's not forget that many of the buildings on lower Broadway were candidates for demolition a couple of decades ago. As with Second Avenue, Third Avenue stands to pull many people further north; not to mention the presence of a revived Printers Alley adjacent to this garage.  In a perfect world, the parking lot across from Third Avenue and the one at Second/Church would be developed.  I personally like the smaller scale brick buildings that line Third and Second Avenues, especially in the context of how downtown grew from the river as the buildings got larger over the decades of the early 20th Century.  I've always enjoyed wandering cities and observing (or trying to guess) how and in what directions they grew. 

So as I contemplate the price paid here and the potential for a thriving bar (perhaps one with a celebrity partner), I think a great case could be made for investing in converting this building into a really cool honky tonk. OK... back to you guys. 

[markhollin]

Ballpark Village (7 & 8 stories,  356 units, 16,000 sq. ft. of retail, internal garage) update: tower crane up (I believe there will be two eventually); up to 2nd level on south end of project.

Looking north from intersection of Harrison St. and 4th Ave. North:

Looking NE from intersection of Harrison St. and 4th Ave. North:




Looking SW from 3rd Ave. North a North Capital Greenway:

[markhollin]

405 Broadway (5 stories, 30,000 sq. ft. restaurant, bar, venue) update:  more core drilling and depth.

Looking south from Broadway, 1/8 block west of 4th Ave:

[markhollin]

The U.S. Post Office  will be closing its outlet inside of The Arcade in the near future, and will relocate somewhere else (yet to be announced) within the inner loop. Their lease, which has been in effect since the 1920s, is not going to be renewed by Rob Lowe and Linfield Capital, who are completely renovating the 120 year old mall. 10 tenants remain active in the 2 level center, which has a lot of construction and infrastructure rebuilding underway.

More behind the Nashville Post paywall here:

https://www.nashvillepost.com/business/development/arcade-post-office-to-close-and-relocate/article_226a0642-2576-11ed-ab10-0b3d26400e15.html

[Bark At The Sun]

[DiddyMas]

3 hours ago, Bark At The Sun said:

Playing musical cranes down there?

[Bos2Nash]

There were issues with the previous crane where the ground was not stable enough to support the crane. Had to go to an alternative approach.

[bnacincy]

10 hours ago, markhollin said:

The U.S. Post Office  will be closing its outlet inside of The Arcade in the near future, and will relocate somewhere else (yet to be announced) within the inner loop. Their lease, which has been in effect since the 1920s, is not going to be renewed by Rob Lowe and Linfield Capital, who are completely renovating the 120 year old mall. 10 tenants remain active in the 2 level center, which has a lot of construction and infrastructure rebuilding underway.

More behind the Nashville Post paywall here:

https://www.nashvillepost.com/business/development/arcade-post-office-to-close-and-relocate/article_226a0642-2576-11ed-ab10-0b3d26400e15.html

In the immortal words of Reviewbrah "My disappointment is immeasurable and my day is ruined"

[markhollin]

Capitol Hotel expansion (5 stories, 29 rooms) update: signage up.

Looking NE from Polk Ave., 1/4 block south of Union St:

[smeagolsfree]

15 hours ago, Bos2Nash said:

There were issues with the previous crane where the ground was not stable enough to support the crane. Had to go to an alternative approach.

It's all your fault!

[smeagolsfree]

WW sent this to me. Looks as if CSX is pulling up tracks in the Gulch. Maybe a sale is in the works.

 

[titanhog]

He said $20 Million worth of land.  Looks like more than $20 Mil worth to me, unless being that close to the tracks diminishes the price. 

 

[UrbanWes03]

2 hours ago, smeagolsfree said:

WW sent this to me. Looks as if CSX is pulling up tracks in the Gulch. Maybe a sale is in the works.

 

They just did some removal of tracks near the Old City in Knoxville as well. 

[markhollin]

Modera Germantown (5 stories, 800 units, internal garage) update: core drilling and other equipment on site for possible start of Phase II.

Looking north from driveway to The Griff, 1/2 block east of Adams St. and Van Buren:

[markhollin]

21 hours ago, smeagolsfree said:

WW sent this to me. Looks as if CSX is pulling up tracks in the Gulch. Maybe a sale is in the works.

 

This section appears to be 5 or 6 sets of tracks with 4 left remaining for thru traffic.  It is about 800 feet in length (tapering off at both ends) and takes up approximately 3.5 acres. Could fetch a pretty penny. 

[rookzie]

On 8/30/2022 at 11:08 AM, smeagolsfree said:

WW sent this to me. Looks as if CSX is pulling up tracks in the Gulch. Maybe a sale is in the works.

 

Looks as if the city is yet again about to miss another big opportunity to pre-empt what could be a potentially huge asset for regional/commuter rail.

My apology for this digression being in the wrong thread and perhaps not the most germane to the topic.   True, it would take much-much more outlay to work with CSX for access into and out of this as a facility, which is central to all the proposed corridors.  But that's how other regions built their start-ups and and expansions for the late 20th and early 21 centuries ─ acquisitions chunk by chunk.  That's how it has worked in Florida; that's how it worked in Colorado, and that's' how it's been in the process of working in Virginia.

While regional rail would bring more activity into the gulch, and therefore more noise, it also would give strength to the argument of electrification over diesel-electric, whether as EMUs or loco-hauled push-pulls.  Track noise is far less annoying to a dense residential community than noise from large internal-combustion engines under load ─ even more noise from the same diesels throttled up for starting movements.  Nonetheless, this might be the final mass-opportunity in all our lifetimes to reserve central-core property for transit purposes.  As an aside, Chicago's Millennium Station and Union Station have demonstrated all too well the use of air-rights for high-rise structures over busy commuter tracks.  But the tracks ─ in some form and fashion optimized for commuter-rail ops ─ have had to remain in place for the new pilings built to accommodate them.

Another appropriate and potentially favorable chance to work with big-corporate redev for future commuter-rail was forgone with the Lifeway property deal, when the corporate chess board still contained a few active pawns and rooks.  Even with no funding source earmarked for such acquisitions, at the very least some resolution should have been proposed and made visible with an open forum of discussion.  No one seems to be thinking out of the box, and willing to toss up such a concept, even if it ultimately becomes a clay pigeon for trapshooting.

Edited August 31, 2022 by rookzie

[Rick Dalton]

Is there a plan to cleanup the homeless situation in the Pie Town / Gulch / SoBro area? It’s like night of the living dead out there, and it should be a great part of town. Terribly unfortunate.

[smeagolsfree]

Metro is all about missed opportunities, not cleaning up eyesores , etc.

Don’t look for anything special regarding mass transit from this mayor. He is a bus kind of guy. He thinks that is the way to get around.

[rookzie]

44 minutes ago, smeagolsfree said:

Metro is all about missed opportunities, not cleaning up eyesores , etc.

Don’t look for anything special regarding mass transit from this mayor. He is a bus kind of guy. He thinks that is the way to get around.

No doubt Freddie (O'C) would and likely even vocally agree with you....

Edited August 31, 2022 by rookzie

[Nashvillain]

3 hours ago, smeagolsfree said:

Metro is all about missed opportunities, not cleaning up eyesores , etc.

Don’t look for anything special regarding mass transit from this mayor. He is a bus kind of guy. He thinks that is the way to get around.

Buses ARE a good way to get around when service is frequent and they're not stuck in vehicle traffic. Also, when not all routes lead downtown.

Riding the bus is great. It's a great way to see the city. It's fun to people watch. There's WiFi. They have bike racks. They can get you home safely when you've been out drinking.