Nashville Statement Aftermath?

[fieldmarshaldj]

1 hour ago, ruraljuror said:

I guess you're right.  If you'd prefer to judge Barry's values than show compassion for her loss, it's all the same to me.  And you're also right that it was a mistake to imply that Christ wouldn't be judgmental.  I suppose that's where Judgement Day comes from after all.  In fact, some Christians would say that Christ is the only one who is supposed to be doing the judging (who casts the first stone?) but it's possible I've misinterpreted this too.  You are also right that I'm no expert on the matter.

And I'm glad that you got to take pride in the Nashville Statement.  It may not represent the majority opinion of Nashvillian's, but I've gathered that over the years you have often felt that Nashville  (especially the city govt.) has failed to represent you fairly or accurately one way or another, so it's nice for you to get  a Nashville statement you can support for a change.  There's nothing wrong with celebrating that on your part and proudly saying you support the Nashville statement to anyone willing to listen.  And given that, I can even understand your frustration with Barry for undercutting that Nashville pride that you got to experience finally for a reason unrelated to cool new skyscrapers.

Also, you obviously have a lot of confidence in your beliefs and that must be a great feeling.  In many ways I'm jealous.  I think most people live their lives with a greater degree of uncertainty about everything than you seem to have about anything.  That honestly sounds like fun to me, and must be a really secure and purpose-filled way to live. 

That said, even if you're right and our mayor's tragedy is a direct divine retribution for her wayward values--isn't that punishment enough?  Does she really require further condemnation on a public forum? 

 

You confuse my comments for being mutually exclusive. I do find it very sad that she lost her child, it was a terrible waste of life. To raise up a child and send them out into the world for them to meet such a fate is awful. But it was also preventable had he been raised with good values, the kind mocked by present-day society as so passé, because he'd have been able to make the kinds of personal decisions that didn't lead to an untimely death.

It's one thing if he had been killed by no fault of his own, but quite another when it was poor choices that drove the tragedy. A preventable death is far worse in my estimation. My reaction when I heard the Mayor's response to the "Nashville Statement" only served to undergird my belief that she just doesn't get it and prefers the adulation of the elites and the disordered politically correct values du jour to the timeless values and beliefs that help to instill in individuals a discerning judgment and reasoning to prevent such tragedies from happening in the first place.

As for my political opinion of Nashville's choices for local office of the past 4-5 decades, that's well known. I had only a marginally fair opinion of the first Metro Mayor, Beverly Briley, who was in office when I was born, and have had an ever-increasingly negative to abhorrant opinion of his successors to the present. I supported the present Mayor's opponent in 2015 on fiscal grounds (certainly not social, as he differed little from her, unfortunately).

Of course, she could champion the cause of building bright, shiny new buildings and the like, but there's more to a city, state or nation than such superficial things. If it doesn't follow and champion the timeless values, ethics and morals in opposition to the present selfish "if it feels good, do it" values and disordered secular humanistic ones (which ironically do nothing to "lift" humanity), all of which comes from a much darker source, it will ultimately be an exercise in futility. Present day mankind isn't the first to think it knows better than God, but they are arrogant enough to continuously cling to the false belief that there will be no consequences for defying Him. It's sad to see so many today believing in this and attempting to force those of us who reject such vile values to live under their system, and those that refuse will be destroyed, their reputations, by loss of jobs, by being sued into bankruptcy or other coercive methods to punish "wrong (anti-PC/"intolerant") thinking. The same groups that exclaimed, "Don't force YOUR (God's) values on me !" will not hesitate, once in power, to force theirs on everyone else and woe be to those who stand up against it.

It doesn't take a rocket scientist or Talmudic or Bibilical scholar to see where this all is headed. Yes, I was blessed at a young age to see so much of what has been going on for the past several decades, the spiritual warfare and existential threat to Western Civilization, but it's also been a curse, because while you might be able to reach some folks to wake them up to what's going on, it's more like watching a train crash in slow motion and you feel utterly helpless to stop it. No, it's not fun at all. Fun would be just ignoring it all and wallowing in the morass of self-gratification and hedonistic values of our era. Pay no attention to tomorrow and live just for today. Don't worry about religion (even better if none) or God or any of that, can't you imagine ? (As the song goes).

As for the last, I cannot say if it is "Divine" (ha) retribution on Mayor Barry and her son. I said it's a combo of bad values he was instilled with and that he couldn't do something simple that Nancy Reagan was mercilessly mocked for in the 1980s by these same cultural elites, "Just Say No." That one little thing would've stopped a tragedy.

I think of the popular line trying to figure out how people turn "right wing": "A Conservative is a liberal who was mugged." What would that do to a left-wing mother who lost her child due to utterly preventable reasons ? You'd think it would cause her to perhaps reevaluate her belief system and ponder that she was in error in what she instructed her child in. Apparently not in this case, and she doubles-down on her trendy, hedonistic belief system and condemns those who don't believe what she does. It's sad in its willfully blind ignorance. It's this I choose to condemn her on, not the loss of her child.

Anyway, I've said more than I intended to speak on this subject, presuming it even survives being allowed to stay up. The last time I spoke on "God's values" openly on UP, I was condemned by a certain moderator who didn't agree with Him with a permanent warning point on my account. I guess if you're not mocked and condemned by "the world", you're not doing it right.

[bigeasy]

I think you kinda dig your own grave when it comes to being "condemned" by moderators for certain topics. How you deliver a message can completely change the response and direction of the conversation. I think sometimes you can attack due to your strong stance on topics. Sure this thread is political, but it never really reached that point until you lead it there.  I tend to stay away from stuff like that but just thought I would give my two cents. As a Christian I probably agree with you on many things, but sometimes I do wonder if you enjoy stirring the pot some.

 

Anywho, since I live in Nashville I only see local news on the topic, but has this story actually made it out nationally? I wasn't aware it had gotten that big. I personally don't see it making an impact outside of maybe locals getting upset with either side. I feel like this is just one of those generic stories that news use to fill time and will be quickly replaced by some non-story about a celebrity.

[Pdt2f]

1 hour ago, bigeasy said:

I think you kinda dig your own grave when it comes to being "condemned" by moderators for certain topics. How you deliver a message can completely change the response and direction of the conversation. I think sometimes you can attack due to your strong stance on topics. Sure this thread is political, but it never really reached that point until you lead it there.  I tend to stay away from stuff like that but just thought I would give my two cents. As a Christian I probably agree with you on many things, but sometimes I do wonder if you enjoy stirring the pot some.

 

Anywho, since I live in Nashville I only see local news on the topic, but has this story actually made it out nationally? I wasn't aware it had gotten that big. I personally don't see it making an impact outside of maybe locals getting upset with either side. I feel like this is just one of those generic stories that news use to fill time and will be quickly replaced by some non-story about a celebrity.

I mean, it went national as far as trending on Twitter and a few news stories on the MSN, but most of the coverage was just celebrities and mainline Protestant pastors taking turns to express how outraged they were. The statement was meant to clarify the confusing issue of sexuality to evangelical churches, where the statement will presumably stay. Typically statements, creeds, and councils happen when there is confusion about a subject that wasn't there until recently. Many of the early Church councils were in response to heresies like Manichaeism, Arianism, and Nestorianism; because these were confusing controversial topics at the time. So I think after a short time your average person will think and know as much about the Nashville Statement as they do the Council of Chalcedon. Honestly there would probably be very little controversy at all if the mayor had just kept her mouth shut. 

[samsonh]

Its nice that FM knows so much about the values Mayor Berry raised her child with. I am not sure how he knows so much about her family but good for him!

 

Anyone who has met Mayor Berry will know that whether or not you agree with her politics she cares about people and treats everyone with respect and empathy, more than I can say for your posts in this thread FM.

 

Maybe the reason most disagree with your posting is how condescending you can be. Remember that as much as you may believe faith that there are others who believe their faith just as much. 

[Pdt2f]

5 minutes ago, samsonh said:

Its nice that FM knows so much about the values Mayor Berry raised her child with. I am not sure how he knows so much about her family but good for him!

 

Anyone who has met Mayor Berry will know that whether or not you agree with her politics she cares about people and treats everyone with respect and empathy, more than I can say for your posts in this thread FM.

 

Maybe the reason most disagree with your posting is how condescending you can be. Remember that as much as you may believe faith that there are others who believe their faith just as much. 

She treats people with respect and empathy, unless they have different social beliefs. 

Would you prefer if he started and ended every sentence with "in my own opinion"? Or are we not supposed to have strongly held beliefs about the world because others also have strong beliefs? If his methods are blunt and confrontational it's because living as a social conservative in Nashville you learn to either defend your point of view against several angry, outraged people, or you keep silent. I'm happy that FM chooses the first option. He's very opinionated but I think it's good that Nashville's conservative minority has a voice on this board. 

[samsonh]

11 minutes ago, Pdt2f said:

She treats people with respect and empathy, unless they have different social beliefs. 

Would you prefer if he started and ended every sentence with "in my own opinion"? Or are we not supposed to have strongly held beliefs about the world because others also have strong beliefs? If his methods are blunt and confrontational it's because living as a social conservative in Nashville you learn to either defend your point of view against several angry, outraged people, or you keep silent. I'm happy that FM chooses the first option. He's very opinionated but I think it's good that Nashville's conservative minority has a voice on this board. 

Yeah we need some proof behind these accusations against Mayor Berry. Also who is angry and outraged on this board?

[dmillsphoto]

Hey, remember when I said, just last night, that threads specifically about religion and politics aren't tolerated by moderators? You're all making your bed right now in this thread. And frankly, it's kind of embarrassing that a newcomer posted this and has to read through this deluge of off-topic stuff.

[Pdt2f]

15 minutes ago, dmillsphoto said:

Hey, remember when I said, just last night, that threads specifically about religion and politics aren't tolerated by moderators? You're all making your bed right now in this thread. And frankly, it's kind of embarrassing that a newcomer posted this and has to read through this deluge of off-topic stuff.

You're right, I'll back off. 

[bigeasy]

This is also off topic, but welcome to the site Binbin98!! Not sure if you have been lurking on the site for awhile before officially joining or not, but I hope you enjoy it on here. Some great information about the city, especially for someone like you who isn't currently living in the states.

[fieldmarshaldj]

14 hours ago, bigeasy said:

I think you kinda dig your own grave when it comes to being "condemned" by moderators for certain topics. How you deliver a message can completely change the response and direction of the conversation. I think sometimes you can attack due to your strong stance on topics. Sure this thread is political, but it never really reached that point until you lead it there.  I tend to stay away from stuff like that but just thought I would give my two cents. As a Christian I probably agree with you on many things, but sometimes I do wonder if you enjoy stirring the pot some.

I'll disagree with that. The thread started off with a strongly-held political (and/or) religious position. Because it came from a certain direction, those that would tend to agree with it would not find it objectionable or condemnable, but as soon as one counters the point from the opposite direction, that is when some take issue with the response and the person making said response. I've raised the point on several occasions that were I to have started a thread or similar political/religious one with the comments I made earlier in the thread in being condemning of the Mayor, I don't believe that thread would've been applauded in the same manner the OP's post was for being supportive of her (or allowed to have stayed at all).

It's not a matter of enjoying stirring the pot for the sake of just pissing people off, it's a matter of seeing a point or comment being made that truly requires a response for a given reason, no matter what the subject may be (unless it's sports, I'm not a sports person, so you'll almost never see me say anything about it). History, culture, politics, those are generally my biggies.

[fieldmarshaldj]

12 hours ago, samsonh said:

Its nice that FM knows so much about the values Mayor Berry raised her child with. I am not sure how he knows so much about her family but good for him!

Anyone who has met Mayor Berry will know that whether or not you agree with her politics she cares about people and treats everyone with respect and empathy, more than I can say for your posts in this thread FM.

Maybe the reason most disagree with your posting is how condescending you can be. Remember that as much as you may believe faith that there are others who believe their faith just as much. 

D.J. can only surmise what values her child was raised by by judging the harvest. I would vigorously disagree on your assessment of Mayor Barry's treatment of others. Well before she became Mayor, her stances and activities I found to be singularly offensive and disrespectful on almost every issue. Is she a nice person ? She may be in your estimation, because you agree with her. I don't find what she stands for particularly nice. You may say she has a kind or nice demeanor, but to me, it's not particularly important, because it is everything behind a smiling façade to be so harmful and destructive.

As for trying to analyze my persona, which has been a source of amusement for me since almost no one else on the Nashville forum has been psycho-analyzed as much as myself, you should equally note that the comments and replies from your side are read as condescending as you believe mine to be.  Oh, and I do fully comprehend that others believe in their own "faith" just as much, which is why I'm so critical of it when they continually bitterly cling to it long after the results of its beliefs have yielded such horrible results and refuse to see. That's what is so terribly sad.

12 hours ago, samsonh said:

Yeah we need some proof behind these accusations against Mayor Berry. Also who is angry and outraged on this board?

Judging from the steam coming off your post, I can't imagine.

[Dale]

Group of pastors affirms it's okay for Christians to believe what they've believed for two-thousand years. Neo-Pagan Left craps itself. 

[fieldmarshaldj]

25 minutes ago, Dale said:

Group of pastors affirms it's okay for Christians to believe what they've believed for two-thousand years. Neo-Pagan Left craps itself. 

...Film at 11.

[ruraljuror]

45 minutes ago, Dale said:

Group of pastors affirms it's okay for Christians to believe what they've believed for two-thousand years. Neo-Pagan Left craps itself. 

Nobody is surprised by the content of these evangelical leaders' statement.  Obviously, the far bigger surprise would be if they had joined the vast majority of the Christian community and voiced their support for gay marriage.  That would have been worthy of a big announcement.

But what's the point of the announcement if they're just rehashing old news?  Why name the statement as though it's the Council of Nicaea if you're just saying something you've said a thousand times before.  I feel quite confident that none of us would be having this discussion right now if they'd kept Nashville's name out of it and hadn't associated us with their cause, whether on purpose for branding reasons or inadvertently.

 

But here's the thing, even many Christians who support gay marriage probably still consider homosexuality a sin and may share almost all of the same beliefs on the matter that you do.  Because even if they think homosexuality is one of the worst sins a person can commit, they can still recognizes that other people and other religions/sects disagree with them, and most importantly, it's not the responsibility of the government to make these 'judgement' calls.  That's God's job, right?

You wouldn't be happy if our government started legislating in accordance with the rules of Scientology and suddenly it's illegal to interact with anyone the church has deemed a Suppressive Person.  That would make as much sense as outlawing the keeping of False Idols, or not honouring thy mother, etc.  It's hard to imagine a person standing before a judge in the U.S. defending themselves against the crime of taking the Lord's name in vain, because that's obviously not how it works in this country.

No one is going to stop you if you want to believe homosexuality is a sin, and you are totally free to disallow gay marriage in your church, but no one gets to make that choice for all churches, and I for one would've certainly preferred if they'd left Nashville out of it entirely. 

[Dale]

5 minutes ago, ruraljuror said:

Nobody is surprised by the content of these evangelical leaders' statement.  Obviously, the far bigger surprise would be if they had joined the vast majority of the Christian community and voiced their support for gay marriage.  That would have been worthy of a big announcement.

But what's the point of the announcement if they're just rehashing old news?  Why name the statement as though it's the Council of Nicaea if you're just saying something you've said a thousand times before.  I feel quite confident that none of us would be having this discussion right now if they'd kept Nashville's name out of it and hadn't associated us with their cause, whether on purpose for branding reasons or inadvertently.

 

But here's the thing, even many Christians who support gay marriage probably still consider homosexuality a sin and may share almost all of the same beliefs on the matter that you do.  Because even if they think homosexuality is one of the worst sins a person can commit, they can still recognizes that other people and other religions/sects disagree with them, and most importantly, it's not the responsibility of the government to make these 'judgement' calls.  That's God's job, right?

You wouldn't be happy if our government started legislating in accordance with the rules of Scientology and suddenly it's illegal to interact with anyone the church has deemed a Suppressive Person.  That would make as much sense as outlawing the keeping of False Idols, or not honouring thy mother, etc.  It's hard to imagine a person standing before a judge in the U.S. defending themselves against the crime of taking the Lord's name in vain, because that's obviously not how it works in this country.

No one is going to stop you if you want to believe homosexuality is a sin, and you are totally free to disallow gay marriage in your church, but no one gets to make that choice for all churches, and I for one would've certainly preferred if they'd left Nashville out of it entirely. 

Various Christian bakers, florists, wedding planners, et. al., would likely disagree with you.

[Dale]

Oh, and keep the state the hell out of the church!

[ruraljuror]

4 minutes ago, Dale said:

Various Christian bakers, florists, wedding planners, et. al., would likely disagree with you.

There's no such thing as a gay wedding cake or a gay flower arrangement.  If you're in the business of baking cakes and arranging flowers, you don't get to pick a certain class of people that you're not going to sell them to.  Nothing about that business interaction forces the baker or the florist to change their beliefs on whether or not homosexuality is a sin.

Do you think a doctor should be allowed to refuse to operate on a patient because he's Native American and that doctor happens to hate Native Americans?  Do you think a tax accountant should be allowed to deny service to all women?  What about a hotel that won't rent a room to black people or Middle Eastern pilgrims, for example? 

I get that this stuff is messy, but nobody can force you to change your beliefs.  Are there conflicts between faith and capitalism, yes of course (film at 11), but nobody (including the government) can force you to operate a business that you feel compromises your faith either.  But if you're open to the public, then you're open to the public, it's not an a-la-carte scenario in this country.

7 minutes ago, Dale said:

Oh, and keep the state the hell out of the church!

Agreed!  And vice versa of course. 

[Dale]

2 minutes ago, ruraljuror said:

There's no such thing as a gay wedding cake or a gay flower arrangement.  If you're in the business of baking cakes and arranging flowers, you don't get to pick a certain class of people that you're not going to sell them to.  Nothing about that business interaction forces the baker or the florist to change their beliefs on whether or not homosexuality is a sin.

Do you think a doctor should be allowed to refuse to operate on a patient because he's Native American and that doctor happens to hate Native Americans?  Do you think a tax accountant should be allowed to deny service to all women?  What about a hotel that won't rent a room to black people or Middle Eastern pilgrims, for example? 

I get that this stuff is messy, but nobody can force you to change your beliefs.  Are there conflicts between faith and capitalism, yes of course (film at 11), but nobody (including the government) can force you to operate a business that you feel compromises your faith either.  But if you're open to the public, then you're open to the public, it's not an a-la-carte scenario in this country.

Agreed!  And vice versa of course. 

As soon as you move to conscript services, you've become an active  proponent of slavery.

[ruraljuror]

Well, as I mentioned, nobody can force you to operate your business and, if it's not your business, you can always quit your job.  Which is a pretty far cry from slavery, I think you'll agree.

That said, I sort of agree with your underlying point actually.  In some ways, I would prefer if every business were free to deny service to anyone that they want so long as they post big bold letters on all their signage and advertisements specifically outlining the classes of people they won't do business with.  In these days, i think that might be a more effective way of dealing with the issue, though that's probably naively optimistic on my part given that's obviously the way it used to be in the days of the "White's Only" signs we're all familiar with.  Coincidentally, it's those kinds of signs and the business practices they represent that made us change the laws to prevent businesses from singling out a certain class of people to deny service.

Importantly, you'll note that requiring hotels and lunch counters to accept black guests did not (and in fact could not) force the hotel and lunch counter owners/workers to abandon their racist beliefs.  They just had to give their black guests a room/sandwich and take their money, begrudgingly if need be.  That's all anybody's asking for, and take heart that bakers, and florists, and wedding planners who are outwardly hostile and obviously disapproving of their gay clientele won't have to deal with gay clientele for very long.  

[UTgrad09]

Even for a coffee house thread, this is bad.

Watch it on the personal stuff. You can do the political BS a little bit (because, coffee house), but if you start getting personal with the attacks, I will hammer you. Don't do it. This is your warning.

[fieldmarshaldj]

2 hours ago, UTgrad09 said:

Even for a coffee house thread, this is bad.

Watch it on the personal stuff. You can do the political BS a little bit (because, coffee house), but if you start getting personal with the attacks, I will hammer you. Don't do it. This is your warning.

Bad ? Gee whiz, I'd say it's about as strong as a garden snail death cage match.

[Binbin98]

I Feel bad, I didnt mean to bring a touchy subject to light, I just thought it would make a good discussion, but i was wrong. Sorry all

[Pdt2f]

3 hours ago, Binbin98 said:

I Feel bad, I didnt mean to bring a touchy subject to light, I just thought it would make a good discussion, but i was wrong. Sorry all

New guy:

 

[satalac]

Can't we all just blame this on Alex Palmer and move on like a real Nashvillian would do?

[grilled_cheese]

Another industry us Millennial's are killing......religion.

 

muahahahaha