Amazon HQ2

[Guest]

Game over Fellas and Ladies.

[DMann]

LOL!

I would think that part of the equation for Amazon is a growing city vs a dying city.  Have we seen any migration statistics for the potential frontrunners?

[jednc]

Just an article...

Future Tech Cities

[KJHburg]

^^^ Why is it so hard to spell PittsburgH right?  That really annoys me I see this all the time too.   Charlotte is an up and coming tech city maybe never as big or important as others but a tech center in its own right. Just look around  AvidXchange, Healthgram, Passport, Lendingtree.com, etc etc.  

[cjd5050]

1 hour ago, KJHburg said:

^^^ Why is it so hard to spell PittsburgH right? 

1

Because pretty much everyone under 40 has grown up with spell check (myself included) and Pittsburg is actually the more popular spelling of the city name and would not trigger an error.    

[QCxpat]

New York Times, "5 Lessons Seattle Can Teach Other Cities About Amazon,"  by Kirk Johnson, November 16, 2017.

Link:  https://www.nytimes.com/2017/11/16/us/amazon-seattle-headquarters.html

Amazon employees spend time with their dogs in a 17th-floor dog park on the company’s campus in Seattle.CreditRuth Fremson/The New York Times

5 Lessons:

(1) History and Geography matter.  "For Seattle, Amazon has become far more than a big employer and taxpayer; it reshaped how the city sees itself and, in turn, is seen by the world." ... "Seattle hit a sweet spot with the company's rise, Professor Fred H. Smith (a professor of urban economic history at Davidson College in N.C.) said, as Amazon tapped into an existing rich pool of talent and resources, from the University of Washington's strengths in computer science to cheap electricity from the Pacific Northwest's connections to hydro-power dams in the Columbia River basin."

(2) Amazon will not be a predictable engine of change.  "What you get now will probably not be what Amazon becomes."   Josh Simms, chief exec. of H5 Data Centers said, "Amazon brought a lot of young, smart people into Seattle so now all the big tech companies feel they need to be there as well."  ...  "One of the companies  new office buildings will have a shelter for 200 homeless women, children and families built into the tower itself - the first such design in the world, company officials said."

 (3) Amazon will magnify a city's charms and its warts.  "Amazon is simultaneously one of the most loved and most hated of organizations." ... "In Seattle, the company's growth became the catalyst for forces of anti-growth as housing prices soared and traffic worsened." ... "Defenders of the company's impact said the huge and expensive expansion of mass transit that is underway now might not have happened if a sudden worsening of traffic had not underscored the need."

(4) New employees will not be like the old ones.  "Here in Seattle ... about 8,000 new apartments are under construction within walking distance of the Amazon campus and are expected to be taken mostly by employees.  About 20 % of the company's 40,000 workers already do not take any motorized transportation at all -- they walk or bike.  And more than one in six live and work in the same ZIP code."

(5) New problems won't be like the old ones, either.  "Seattle has outpaced every other big city in the nation in the rate of wage increases over the last decade, according to figures from Payscale.  But thousands of people have also come seeking opportunity, with many falling through the cracks.  Over 11,000 people were homeless in King County on a one-night count this year.  Home prices continued their dizzying upward spiral in 2017, nearly twice as fast as the second fastest appreciating big city."

N.B.:  I know, TL;DR 

 

Edited November 17, 2017 by QCxpat

[cjd5050]

6 hours ago, QCxpat said:

(4) New employees will not be like the old ones.  "Here in Seattle ... about 8,000 new apartments are under construction within walking distance of the Amazon campus and are expected to be taken mostly by employees.  About 20 % of the company's 40,000 workers already do not take any motorized transportation at all -- they walk or bike.  And more than one in six live and work in the same ZIP code."

 

I think this has more to do with the geography of Seattle than anything.  It's boxed in by water to the east and west.  

[QCxpat]

13 hours ago, cjd5050 said:

I think this has more to do with the geography of Seattle than anything.  It's boxed in by water to the east and west.  

In addition to Seattle's location on a narrow isthmus between Puget Sound and Lake Washington, Seattle is much denser than Charlotte. 

Seattle covers a land area of 83.87 sq. mi. / 217.2 sq. km; had a BOC est. pop. of 704,362 as of 07/01/16; and has a pop. density of 8,398 sq. mi. / 3,242 sq. km.

Charlotte covers a land area of 305.1 sq. mi. / 790.2 sq. km.; had a BOC est. pop. of 842.051 as of 07/01/16; and has a pop. density of 2,761 sq. mi. / 1,092 sq. km.

As the NY Times story notes, "For Seattle, Amazon has become far more than a big employer and taxpayer.  It reshaped how the city sees itself and, in turn, is seen by the world." 

It has been said that "Charlotte's greatest struggle is with its own identity.  The city remains tied to its roots as a giant of finance and transportation, but has diversified as it has grown. The rapid growth of the late-20th century led to the unfortunate demolition of much of the city's historical infrastructure, giving Uptown a glittering feeling of newness despite its 250-year history.   ...   Heavy growth in the past 20 years has made Charlotte one of the South's largest and most successful cities. In many ways,  the city is still trying to catch up to its own growth.  Visitors often comment that it seems understated in terms of culture and development.  However, it is changing at a breathtaking speed."  See link at: https://en.wikivoyage.org/wiki/Charlotte#Q16565

If Charlotte wins the competition for HQ2, the breathtaking changes over the past quarter century will probably accelerate to warp speed and the evolution of Charlotte's identity along with it.

    

Edited November 18, 2017 by QCxpat
Add link to wikivoyage

[SydneyCarton]

Unless NC gives $8b, Charlotte has zero chance of getting this.

Just Within the region, Atlanta is vastly preferable.   However, Boston is the perfect candidate and should get this unless its incentives are absurdly low.  It's a gorgeous, cultured city where young people want to be,  It has great  mass transit and airport service.  Most importantly, it has Harvard and MIT, and Yale, Dartmouth, and Brown are all close by.

Edited November 18, 2017 by SydneyCarton

[QCxpat]

On 11/18/2017 at 9:19 AM, SydneyCarton said:

Unless NC gives $8b, Charlotte has zero chance of getting this.

Just Within the region, Atlanta is vastly preferable.   However, Boston is the perfect candidate and should get this unless its incentives are absurdly low.  It's a gorgeous, cultured city where young people want to be,  It has great  mass transit and airport service.  Most importantly, it has Harvard and MIT, and Yale, Dartmouth, and Brown are all close by.

I wouldn't put my bet on Boston for HQ2.   Boston fumbled its bid for the 2024 summer Olympics.  There are many social justice organizations in Boston that definitely don't want Amazon's HQ2 to come to the Boston area, thereby contributing to (i) the exorbitant price of housing, (ii) income inequality, (iii) more displacement / gentrification, and (iv) burdening an aging and decrepit mass transit system that completely broke down 2 winters ago (Feb. 2015) during epic snow and ice storms.  Charlotte will do just fine whether or not she lands HQ2.

Edited November 19, 2017 by QCxpat
date of ice storm 02/2015

[SydneyCarton]

If you think that Charlotte is better than NY  and Boston, you must be on illegal narcotics.  Anyway, enjoy your delusion.

[cltheel.sdl]

Hello all,

 

It's been quite a while for me since I've last been active (don't you worry, I've been lurking), but want to get back in the conversation and this topic is of particular interest to me.  I moved from Charlotte to Seattle in 2010, right before Amazon moved into their fledgling South Lake Union campus.  The transformation I've seen over the past 7 years in Seattle has been nothing short of monumental.  40-story apartment after 40-story apartment have risen over the past several years, and more and more keep coming.   It's been awesome to see the urban development, but as many of you have already stated, it comes with issues.  

 

Traffic has worsened dramatically.  Seattle's transportation infrastructure is lacking for a city of it's size and geographical constraints.  You have a ton of people funneled into a relatively narrow isthmus between Lake Washington and the Puget Sound.  Light rail is being expanded, but there isn't a stop that will directly serve South Lake Union or even Denny Triangle (where the current Amazon towers are being built).  The "Seattle Process", which is basically the definition of bureaucratic nightmare, has hindered the city's ability to keep up with the growth, and to be frank, quality of life for most residents has suffered as a result.  This is something every city bidding on HQ2 should keep in mind.  I think the City of Charlotte generally has a history of being able to "get stuff done", at least compared to the City of Seattle, but the growth would strain the city nonetheless.  

 

Additionally, Amazon has made everything much more expensive (housing, transportation, restaurants, bars, entertainment, etc.).  For people not earning tech salaries, this has put a strain on finances.   Your everyday person's buying power has decreased with the arrival of Amazon, and many people who have contributed to the art/music reputation of Seattle are no longer able to afford to live there.  Many of the cool, old  grungy dive bars that Seattle is famous for have been demolished to make way for apartments and offices.  This especially hit close to home when my favorite tiki dive bar got the wrecking ball this year.  I still haven't gotten over it!  It's been sad to see Seattle's history and cultural significance erode in the wake of the tech boom. 

 

On the other hand, the employers have to compete for employees, so the job market is really solid in Seattle.  Also, there have been a lot of great restaurants open up, and there is an energy and vibrancy in the city.  And lots of shiny, new skyscrapers :).  

 

In short, there is both good and bad that have come as a result of Amazon.  Charlotte will be just fine whether it gets HQ2 or not.  My parents still live in Charlotte, and I get back about twice per year.  I've loved seeing Charlotte's growth over the past few years as well - it's a great city and maybe someday I'll move back.  

 

Happy to be back on UP!

 

 - cltheel.sdl

[SydneyCarton]

I've been going to Seattle for the past twenty years, and it has totally transformed.  I think that outside of the old East Coast cities, LA, Miami, Chicago, and SF, it's the best city in America followed by Denver and Minneapolis.  Seattle is way more vibrant than Atlanta, for example.

Edited November 18, 2017 by SydneyCarton

[Dale]

23 hours ago, SydneyCarton said:

I've been going to Seattle for the past twenty years, and it has totally transformed.  I think that outside of the old East Coast cities, LA, Miami, Chicago, and SF, it's the best city in America followed by Denver and Minneapolis.  Seattle is way more vibrant than Atlanta, for example.

I've spent time in Atlanta and Seattle and " Seattle is way more vibrant than Atlanta" is a bit of an exaggeration.

[urbanlover568]

1 hour ago, Dale said:

I've spent time in Atlanta and Seattle and " Seattle is way more vibrant than Atlanta" is a bit of an exaggeration.

People in ATL are generally  not nice there and like to show off what they have.  Very little southern hospitality there.  CLT offerers more of that. 

[Miesian Corners]

On 11/18/2017 at 12:07 PM, SydneyCarton said:

I've been going to Seattle for the past twenty years, and it has totally transformed.  I think that outside of the old East Coast cities, LA, Miami, Chicago, and SF, it's the best city in America followed by Denver and Minneapolis.  Seattle is way more vibrant than Atlanta, for example.

I love Seattle, but its traffic is easily as hellish as Atlanta's (maybe more so--I spent an hour and a half driving  a mere 15 miles into downtown Seattle on I-5 several days in a row).  "Vibrant" is only appealing if you can actually get to where you want to be.

Having worked in both cities for weeks at the time this summer, the main difference (for me) is that Seattle is visually more appealing. Otherwise, spending hours in buses or cars is what residents of both do everyday getting to/from work, as the only affordable housing is in far-flung suburbs. 

[Dale]

2 hours ago, mpretori said:

People in ATL are generally  not nice there and like to show off what they have.  Very little southern hospitality there.  CLT offerers more of that. 

Oh, I get the people part. Spending time in LA and Atlanta, I get the impression that Atlantans are more pretentious, certainly better dressed.

[Cadi40]

You haven't seen people showing off what they have until you've lived in South Florida, God do those people think they are entitled. 

[PeytonC]

On 11/18/2017 at 12:01 PM, cltheel.sdl said:

 

Additionally, Amazon has made everything much more expensive (housing, transportation, restaurants, bars, entertainment, etc.).  For people not earning tech salaries, this has put a strain on finances.   Your everyday person's buying power has decreased with the arrival of Amazon, and many people who have contributed to the art/music reputation of Seattle are no longer able to afford to live there.  Many of the cool, old  grungy dive bars that Seattle is famous for have been demolished to make way for apartments and offices.  This especially hit close to home when my favorite tiki dive bar got the wrecking ball this year.  I still haven't gotten over it!  It's been sad to see Seattle's history and cultural significance erode in the wake of the tech boom. 

 

This one paragraph sums up my concerns. Very well said. It may make Charlotte super-urban someday and make it even more shiny and sterile, but the negatives outweigh the positives for practical, everyday family people such as myself. My kid will grow up in a beautiful, shiny, Southern city with it's own history and charm - with the added bonus of being an already-growing and evolving metro area that has great things for the future at a REASONABLE pace. We don't need to be Toronto or Hong Kong to produce happy, intelligent, successful humans. I hope that overpriced, over-taxed Boston or even Atlanta gets this and we stay humble with our local companies rapidly expanding and bringing more jobs and a sustainable growth rate.

 

 

 

Edited November 19, 2017 by PeytonC
Fixed it

[RALNATIVE]

39 minutes ago, Dale said:

Oh, I get the people part. Spending time in LA and Atlanta, I get the impression that Atlantans are more pretentious, certainly better dressed.

Change the word more to most...

[Cadi40]

I hate to break it to you guys but either way Charlotte is going to get a burden of traffic and a monumental amount of growth. (Charlotte is only going to grow faster and faster as it is predicted to be the fastest growing city in America by 2030). The only real difference between getting it or not is having charlotte be expensive or super expensive. Charlottes housing prices are going to rise, But with HQ2 they would skyrocket. But either way, Charlotte is going to experience most of the Pros and Cons of Amazon. 

[urbanlover568]

7 minutes ago, Cadi40 said:

I hate to break it to you guys but either way Charlotte is going to get a burden of traffic and a monumental amount of growth. (Charlotte is only going to grow faster and faster as it is predicted to be the fastest growing city in America by 2030). The only real difference between getting it or not is having charlotte be expensive or super expensive. Charlottes housing prices are going to rise, But with HQ2 they would skyrocket. But either way, Charlotte is going to experience most of the Pros and Cons of Amazon. 

I actually turned down a job in Atlanta because of rent and the high cost of living. If Atlanta is the pick, rent alone would break the bank within a year. North Carolina's rent is really affordable and the cost of goods is cheap also. I think we all sometimes take that for granted here. 

Edited November 20, 2017 by mpretori

[Cadi40]

25 minutes ago, mpretori said:

I actually turned down a job in Atlanta because of rent and the high cost of living. If Atlanta is the pick, rent alone would break the bank within a year. North Carolina's rent is really affordable and the cost of goods is cheap also. I think we all sometimes take that for granted here. 

I suppose you are right, For Charlotte being the size it is rent is really reasonable here. It's increasing a lot and it would even more if Amazon came, But even if it increased it would still be relatively low for the size and features Charlotte has.

[CriticalT]

2 hours ago, Cadi40 said:

I hate to break it to you guys but either way Charlotte is going to get a burden of traffic and a monumental amount of growth. (Charlotte is only going to grow faster and faster as it is predicted to be the fastest growing city in America by 2030). The only real difference between getting it or not is having charlotte be expensive or super expensive. Charlottes housing prices are going to rise, But with HQ2 they would skyrocket. But either way, Charlotte is going to experience most of the Pros and Cons of Amazon. 

So basically what you're saying is, 
Sometimes when you win, you really lose. And sometimes when you lose, you really win. And sometimes when you win or lose, you actually tie. And sometimes when you tie, you actually win or lose. Winning or losing is all one organic mechanism, from which one extracts what one needs.

[DMann]

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