Amazon HQ2

[joenc]

It may have some sort of side-effect for Software and IT related employment in this area. Charlotte is already a back-office hub for banks, but once Amazon drops into NYC and hires 10,000 software engineers, it's going to put upward pressure on wages there. Google is also doing a massive expansion. Bringing Silicon Valley level wages and RSUs for engineers in NYC may impact things here.

[krazeeboi]

On 11/8/2018 at 2:00 PM, SydneyCarton said:

Charlotte is doing fine as is.   I think that managed growth is the way to go.  Atlanta grew so fast that it's actually becoming undesirable for relocations at this point.  Who wants to deal with all of that traffic?  

I'd like to see underdeveloped parts of Charlotte, like the west and east sides and the area around Pineville develop more.   

I don't think that Charlotte was ready to absorb an employer with 25,000 jobs like Amazon, nor do I think that would have been good for the city.

Charlotte is doing very well at not repeating Atlanta's mistakes.

"Atlanta is actually becoming undesirable for relocations at this point."

That is simply not true; Norfolk Southern is relocating its HQ to Atlanta and there have also been major corporate expansions announced in Atlanta lately with most of them locating to Midtown near MARTA stations. However, it's clear that other cities in the Southeast have grown to become corporate magnets in their own right and this has been the case for the past 25 years or so. 

[SydneyCarton]

21 minutes ago, krazeeboi said:

"Atlanta is actually becoming undesirable for relocations at this point."

That is simply not true; Norfolk Southern is relocating its HQ to Atlanta and there have also been major corporate expansions announced in Atlanta lately with most of them locating to Midtown near MARTA stations. However, it's clear that other cities in the Southeast have grown to become corporate magnets in their own right and this has been the case for the past 25 years or so. 

I disagree, but that's ok.  I think that Charlotte and Nashville are more preferable at the moment.

Anyway, downtown  Atlanta has been dead as an office market for years, as had Dallas.  Companies that relocate to those cities go to suburban office parks -- not downtown -- because no one wants to deal with traffic.  Then again, that's largely true for Charlotte as well.

Edited November 15, 2018 by SydneyCarton

[Dale]

29 minutes ago, SydneyCarton said:

I disagree, but that's ok.  I think that Charlotte and Nashville are more preferable at the moment.

Anyway, downtown  Atlanta has been dead as an office market for years, as had Dallas.  Companies that relocate to those cities go to suburban office parks -- not downtown -- because no one wants to deal with traffic.  Then again, that's largely true for Charlotte as well.

Meanwhile, downtown Nashville is killing it. It’s out-Austin-ing Austin.

[krazeeboi]

1 hour ago, SydneyCarton said:

I disagree, but that's ok.  I think that Charlotte and Nashville are more preferable at the moment.

Anyway, downtown  Atlanta has been dead as an office market for years, as had Dallas.  Companies that relocate to those cities go to suburban office parks -- not downtown -- because no one wants to deal with traffic.  Then again, that's largely true for Charlotte as well.

It's one thing to think Charlotte and Nashville are more preferable for corporate relocations at the moment; it's something else entirely to think that Atlanta is "completely undesirable" as a city for corporate relocations. Your statement simply is not factual; this is not in the realm of opinion.

And once again, you're making another inaccurate statement as many companies that to go Atlanta these days head to Midtown (that's where Norfolk Southern plans to build its new corporate headquarters), and there have even been companies that have moved from the suburbs to Midtown--including F500 company NCR that recently completed its new corporate headquarters in Tech Square. Certainly there are companies that still opt for the suburbs, such as Mercedes Benz and State Farm, but just as companies that head to Midtown, they tend to locate at or very near MARTA stations like those companies did. That tremendously helps in mitigating the traffic factor.

It seems that you're also unaware of all of the companies that have moved and are moving to the core of Charlotte where workers can take LYNX as well as the bus.

Your perspective is pretty outdated. Urban cores all across the nation are adding jobs at a pretty brisk pace, especially those with robust and improving transit systems.

[Dale]

Seems a little arcane, but Atlanta is profoundly height-challenged at present. The new Norfolk-Southern headquarters is probably going to be squat twin-towers.

 

[SydneyCarton]

39 minutes ago, krazeeboi said:

It's one thing to think Charlotte and Nashville are more preferable for corporate relocations at the moment; it's something else entirely to think that Atlanta is "completely undesirable" as a city for corporate relocations. Your statement simply is not factual; this is not in the realm of opinion.

And once again, you're making another inaccurate statement as many companies that to go Atlanta these days head to Midtown (that's where Norfolk Southern plans to build its new corporate headquarters), and there have even been companies that have moved from the suburbs to Midtown--including F500 company NCR that recently completed its new corporate headquarters in Tech Square. Certainly there are companies that still opt for the suburbs, such as Mercedes Benz and State Farm, but just as companies that head to Midtown, they tend to locate at or very near MARTA stations like those companies did. That tremendously helps in mitigating the traffic factor.

It seems that you're also unaware of all of the companies that have moved and are moving to the core of Charlotte where workers can take LYNX as well as the bus.

Your perspective is pretty outdated. Urban cores all across the nation are adding jobs at a pretty brisk pace, especially those with robust and improving transit systems.

Ok.

[krazeeboi]

1 hour ago, Dale said:

Seems a little arcane, but Atlanta is profoundly height-challenged at present. The new Norfolk-Southern headquarters is probably going to be squat twin-towers.

 

I'd consider that a good thing. I think more structural density with active street-level uses is preferable over height.

[15895]

1 hour ago, krazeeboi said:

I'd consider that a good thing. I think more structural density with active street-level uses is preferable over height.

While I agree, I wouldn’t say Charlotte or Atlanta are really shining examples of structural density development patterns. 

[Ingram]

On 11/13/2018 at 12:55 PM, CarolinaDaydreamin said:

Atlanta is certainly better from a logistical aspect. Biggest Airport in the world, Delta's HQ, UPS HQ, Norfolk Southern's HQ (along with a huge tract of land in the center of DT next to 4 subway lines), and recent announcement of Amazon's logistics hub. I think Amazon felt slighted with the outgoing GA LT Gov's slap on the wrist of Delta's policial stance on gun control. 

I think at the end of the day Tennessee was more shrewd in its negotiations and incentive packages. Nashville over Austin, Dallas, and Atlanta is suprising in multiple ways. 

 

That's not the reason they chose Nashville.

"We realized that it would make a lot of sense for us to have an Eastern United States regional hub for our operations business, and Nashville just really impressed us in the HQ2 process," Carney said. "It’s a city pointing toward the future. It made itself very appealing for investment. It's a place where, if people don’t already live there, they are excited about moving there. That's always an important issue for us."

 

They came, they saw, they liked. 

 

 

 

[deleted]

57 minutes ago, Ingram said:

It's a place where, if people don’t already live there, they are excited about moving there.

Anecdotally, this appears to be true (I know a lot of people moving there, including several from San Diego).  Also true, a lot of long-time residents are opposed to the growth (during business trips, I heard this repeatedly).  "We don't want to be Charlotte or Atlanta" was said to me several times.  Guess what?  They are heading in that direction but without the transit.  I like Nashville.  Pretty city, love the hills and the river.  My impression is that Charlotte residents are more accepting of the rapid growth.  I totally get what Amazon sees there though.  Aside from transit, it checked all the boxes.  Vanderbilt is a huge asset.    

[Dale]

I think it came down to the 'feels.' Lack of transit options clearly weren't a factor. And as far as education, other cities had outstanding institutions.

For NYC and DC they probably just wanted worker drones slavishly dedicated to getting you those dry mouth lozenges 10 seconds sooner. Priority on public education ? Please. Cross the river into Manhattan and nearly 75% attend private schools there.

Edited November 16, 2018 by Dale

[elrodvt]

^This post makes no sense on many levels.

Many of the other posts seem to reflect hard feelings / charlotte boosterism or an inability to recognize the significant shortcomings of the southeast in general. Other than Atlanta and maybe someday Nashville I can't see much of a draw. Lower cost of living doesn't cut it. Someone can always outrace you to the bottom.

Instead we need to become known for being the best at something which appeals to young people: Best recreational pot district in east ;-0  and/or concentrate all these breweries into a walkable district with great music and housing options OR a couple world class universities OR build up a world class health care infrastructure etc.... The first two are relatively possible (other than politics) the rest are hard.  No matter which choice were made we need a transit tax and concrete plans for more lines and faster damn trains. 

Instead our leaders will vaguely complain about the process and move on pretty much aimlessly. BAU.

That's my <2c worth. 

[Dale]

24 minutes ago, elrodvt said:

^This post makes no sense on many levels.

Many of the other posts seem to reflect hard feelings / charlotte boosterism or an inability to recognize the significant shortcomings of the southeast in general. Other than Atlanta and maybe someday Nashville I can't see much of a draw. Lower cost of living doesn't cut it. Someone can always outrace you to the bottom.

Instead we need to become known for being the best at something which appeals to young people: Best recreational pot district in east ;-0  and/or concentrate all these breweries into a walkable district with great music and housing options OR a couple world class universities OR build up a world class health care infrastructure etc.... The first two are relatively possible (other than politics) the rest are hard.  No matter which choice were made we need a transit tax and concrete plans for more lines and faster damn trains. 

Instead our leaders will vaguely complain about the process and move on pretty much aimlessly. BAU.

That's my <2c worth. 

Which post makes no sense ?

 

[Matthew.Brendan]

Most of what you post? /shrugs 

[Durhamite]

40 minutes ago, elrodvt said:

^This post makes no sense on many levels.

Many of the other posts seem to reflect hard feelings / charlotte boosterism or an inability to recognize the significant shortcomings of the southeast in general. Other than Atlanta and maybe someday Nashville I can't see much of a draw. Lower cost of living doesn't cut it. Someone can always outrace you to the bottom.

Instead we need to become known for being the best at something which appeals to young people: Best recreational pot district in east ;-0  and/or concentrate all these breweries into a walkable district with great music and housing options OR a couple world class universities OR build up a world class health care infrastructure etc.... The first two are relatively possible (other than politics) the rest are hard.  No matter which choice were made we need a transit tax and concrete plans for more lines and faster damn trains. 

Instead our leaders will vaguely complain about the process and move on pretty much aimlessly. BAU.

That's my <2c worth. 

Do tell these shortcomings.   The Amazon bid was a ruse from the beginning to leverage incentives.   And I guess Nashville went after the low hanging fruit in a pitch, good for them.  The south is the south, God forbid we try to be anything else cause I wouldn't want to live anywhere else.   I've lived many other places yet the south is still my choice.  We move at a different pace.  We win some, we lose some and do think we'll be ok moving forward.   I guess Indianapolis, Columbus and Chicago should go back to square one as well.

Edited November 16, 2018 by Durhamite

[elrodvt]

^Yours. Although re-reading maybe I missed some intended humor. 

-These aren't "slavish drone" sites

-You dismissed transit and education yet both locations have that in spades. As far as MHT private schools go I think most very affluent areas send their kids to private schools while complaining about taxes and poor schools.  I don't know this but bet if you looked up Meyers park or other ritzy areas of charlotte you would see the same. What's the point? If you're in an area investing heavily in public education you can make more diversity hires which most tech companies struggle with.  

Maybe you're making the point it came down to who gave them the best  deal while meeting their parameters? I haven't seen much of an analysis on that yet and we need to get more bids exposed. I do think that whole process is despicable though and guess we agree on that at least.

[elrodvt]

5 minutes ago, Durhamite said:

Do tell these shortcomings.   The Amazon bid was a ruse from the beginning to leverage incentives.   And I guess Nashville went after the low hanging fruit in a pitch, good for them.  The south is the south, God forbid we try to be anything else cause I wouldn't want to live anywhere else.   I've lived many other places yet the south is still my choice.  We move at a different pace.  We win some, we lose some and do think we'll be ok moving forward.   I guess Indianapolis, Columbus and Chicago should go back to square one as well.

Sure, to each his own regarding the south. But it's not a good match for the supposed criteria is what I mean to say. And it won't be for many companies that want to have a "hip" vibe. If you don't care that's fine. 

Indy and Columbus should go back to square 0. Chicago is a great city that cannot figure out how to deal with a terrible crime problem. They make progress on that and they're back in everyone's top lists.

Regarding the "ruse" I'm sure there is some truth to that within the scope of what they could tolerate. It'll make for some really interesting analysis once more numbers are in. I have not read PIttsburgh's bid and had expected them to win myself. Did anyone who read it consider it much less lucrative than the accepted bids?

[Dale]

6 minutes ago, elrodvt said:

^Yours. Although re-reading maybe I missed some intended humor. 

-These aren't "slavish drone" sites

-You dismissed transit and education yet both locations have that in spades. As far as MHT private schools go I think most very affluent areas send their kids to private schools while complaining about taxes and poor schools.  I don't know this but bet if you looked up Meyers park or other ritzy areas of charlotte you would see the same. What's the point? If you're in an area investing heavily in public education you can make more diversity hires which most tech companies struggle with.  

Maybe you're making the point it came down to who gave them the best  deal while meeting their parameters? I haven't seen much of an analysis on that yet and we need to get more bids exposed. I do think that whole process is despicable though and guess we agree on that at least.

I wish I was being funny. It sounds like Red Ventures on steroids ...

https://www.nytimes.com/2015/08/16/technology/inside-amazon-wrestling-big-ideas-in-a-bruising-workplace.html?mtrref=www.entrepreneur.com

I cited Manhattan as a scion of private education. You swing with Myers Park.

Now, of course NYC and DC have extensive public transit. Addendum: NYC's is falling apart. DC's is on. Fire. And the two cities have the first and second worst commutes in the nation.

Nope, I sticking with Nashville on the feels. Especially since that's pretty much what Amazon is saying.

[deleted]

1 hour ago, elrodvt said:

^This post makes no sense on many levels.

Many of the other posts seem to reflect hard feelings / charlotte boosterism or an inability to recognize the significant shortcomings of the southeast in general. Other than Atlanta and maybe someday Nashville I can't see much of a draw. Lower cost of living doesn't cut it. Someone can always outrace you to the bottom.

Instead we need to become known for being the best at something which appeals to young people: Best recreational pot district in east ;-0  and/or concentrate all these breweries into a walkable district with great music and housing options OR a couple world class universities OR build up a world class health care infrastructure etc.... The first two are relatively possible (other than politics) the rest are hard.  No matter which choice were made we need a transit tax and concrete plans for more lines and faster damn trains. 

Instead our leaders will vaguely complain about the process and move on pretty much aimlessly. BAU.

That's my <2c worth. 

I haven't seen many/any hard feelings or boosterism posts (maybe I missed them).  Most people seem to be happy Nashville was chosen.  The fact that Amazon chose Nashville (without much hope for transit in the foreseeable future) seems to contradict your post (even though I readily acknowledge that Nashville is much hipper than Charlotte and more comparable to Austin in that regard).  I think low cost of living/quality of life is meaningful (which is why I live here instead of hip and beautiful San Diego), as are low tax rates.  I support transit taxes and the "big bang" but, again, they went to Nashville (where the populace repeatedly votes transit down).  Also, Texas has been killing CA with corporate relocations.  Outside of Austin, is Texas really that hip?  They do have low taxes and less regulation (which is the opposite of what you propose).  Let's also remember that (presumably) the only reason NY was selected is because of the massive tax breaks Amazon received.  So for a typical company with less leverage, NY is much less attractive.  I think perhaps you are projecting your opinion of the Southeast and Charlotte on Amazon but I don't see a lot of evidence that it's accurate.  Not looking to argue though.  I like Charlotte and think it's fine that you don't.    

[KJHburg]

In response to several posts above,   most tech relocations from California do end up in Austin but most of the other relocations of other HQs and so forth from California end up in Dallas.  

Was in Nashville for 2 days this week yes the music business adds to its hip vibe but I am here to tell you development is more orderly and looks better here in Charlotte.  Plus as much as the city is booming with new growth, I saw no new roads or expansions in the central core and of course no mass transit options in sight after their transit vote defeat. 

Atlanta as a has been?  Oh no.  Though the metro area came out of the Great Recession much slower than Charlotte Atlanta does have its stride back.   As mentioned the corporate headquarters of Norfolk Southern moving there from VA,  Starbucks adding 500 office jobs,  Salesforce adding 600 jobs,  BlackRock adding 1000 new jobs in new office and that is from just this year off the top of my head.  Plus State Farm is in the process of adding 8000 jobs to Atlanta  this has been going on for a a couple of years.

Photos from Atlanta today and construction is booming.  3rd photo is the new State Farm building one of several  planned at the Perimeter Mall MARTA stop. 

[elrodvt]

5 hours ago, JBS said:

I haven't seen many/any hard feelings or boosterism posts (maybe I missed them).  Most people seem to be happy Nashville was chosen.  The fact that Amazon chose Nashville (without much hope for transit in the foreseeable future) seems to contradict your post (even though I readily acknowledge that Nashville is much hipper than Charlotte and more comparable to Austin in that regard).  I think low cost of living/quality of life is meaningful (which is why I live here instead of hip and beautiful San Diego), as are low tax rates.  I support transit taxes and the "big bang" but, again, they went to Nashville (where the populace repeatedly votes transit down).  Also, Texas has been killing CA with corporate relocations.  Outside of Austin, is Texas really that hip?  They do have low taxes and less regulation (which is the opposite of what you propose).  Let's also remember that (presumably) the only reason NY was selected is because of the massive tax breaks Amazon received.  So for a typical company with less leverage, NY is much less attractive.  I think perhaps you are projecting your opinion of the Southeast and Charlotte on Amazon but I don't see a lot of evidence that it's accurate.  Not looking to argue though.  I like Charlotte and think it's fine that you don't.    

Just to clarify I wasn't talking about the Nashville deal I was thinking of the HQ sites.

Also it's not that I dislike Charlotte. There is a lot to like about it if comparing to Tampa or something.. Instead I perceive the Southeast, in general, to be quite far behind the West, Southwest and East. Since our leaders by and large probably don't agree with that sentiment we're stuck trying to keep up with cities like Nashville which also have a long way to go. I freely admit this may be a case of the same personal bias I accuse others of (in reverse).  It's a little hard to explain.

In almost any major thread if you talk about Charlotte needing improvement I feel at least 50% of the folks here have their blinders firmly on due to their pride in the city. I understand and respect that sentiment but it doesn't lead to a lot of progressive ideas. 

I also have no idea why anyone would move their business from CA to TX vs CO unless it's strictly a financial decision. Leaving CA I get.

[CarolinaDaydreamin]

4 hours ago, KJHburg said:

In response to several posts above,   most tech relocations from California do end up in Austin but most of the other relocations of other HQs and so forth from California end up in Dallas.  

Was in Nashville for 2 days this week yes the music business adds to its hip vibe but I am here to tell you development is more orderly and looks better here in Charlotte.  Plus as much as the city is booming with new growth, I saw no new roads or expansions in the central core and of course no mass transit options in sight after their transit vote defeat. 

Atlanta as a has been?  Oh no.  Though the metro area came out of the Great Recession much slower than Charlotte Atlanta does have its stride back.   As mentioned the corporate headquarters of Norfolk Southern moving there from VA,  Starbucks adding 500 office jobs,  Salesforce adding 600 jobs,  BlackRock adding 1000 new jobs in new office and that is from just this year off the top of my head.  Plus State Farm is in the process of adding 8000 jobs to Atlanta  this has been going on for a a couple of years.

Photos from Atlanta today and construction is booming.  3rd photo is the new State Farm building one of several  planned at the Perimeter Mall MARTA stop. 

And not even including pictures of regular midtown or downtown. The Gulch project will be Hudson Yards size, and the Ga Tech Square area in growing very fast. Nashville> Atlanta makes 0 sense. 

[15895]

1 hour ago, elrodvt said:

Just to clarify I wasn't talking about the Nashville deal I was thinking of the HQ sites.

Also it's not that I dislike Charlotte. There is a lot to like about it if comparing to Tampa or something.. Instead I perceive the Southeast, in general, to be quite far behind the West, Southwest and East. Since our leaders by and large probably don't agree with that sentiment we're stuck trying to keep up with cities like Nashville which also have a long way to go. I freely admit this may be a case of the same personal bias I accuse others of (in reverse).  It's a little hard to explain.

In almost any major thread if you talk about Charlotte needing improvement I feel at least 50% of the folks here have their blinders firmly on due to their pride in the city. I understand and respect that sentiment but it doesn't lead to a lot of progressive ideas. 

I also have no idea why anyone would move their business from CA to TX vs CO unless it's strictly a financial decision. Leaving CA I get.

 

I think the entire USA falls wayyyy behind Europe in every way possible as far as the cities go. Charlotte is really no different than any city in the US except NYC.  To me, the US cities in general are pretty boring, devoid of any history - it’s short history. There’s no castles or anything. Only NYC has mass transit that is more than just a small token presence. DC’s mass transit is peanuts. No city except NYC is dense. Chicago I guess. The rest are predominately suburban. The DC region is mostly suburban. Some have a little bit bigger cores, but at the end of the day. It’s the same old suburbs. The vast majority living in the DC region are living in suburbs outside the District of Columbia. Then 1/2 of DC itself is a suburb. I could go to Denver and see what vs. say Lisbon?  Or really any European history that has thousands of years of history, more density, more urbanity, not many chains, lots of local places.

 

But Denver will never be Lisbon. Atlanta will never be Barcelona. Houston will never be Paris. And Southeastern cities will always be southeastern cities.  So while for you it may seem like blinders, for others, it may be accepting that Charlotte is a southeastern city and people want it to be the best southeastern city it can be. Could you imagine if I constantly compared Denver to a European city of a similar metropolitan size? Constantly complained Denver was beyond sterile, nothing but chains, beyond auto-oriented, a mini metro system with a laughable ridership? Claimed Denver had no history vs. a thousand year old city? They’re just different regions, different areas. They’ll always be different. 

Life is too short to be wishing Charlotte wasn’t a southeastern city. It’s doing great. It’s the 2nd largest banking center in the US. It’s a large metro. Fairly wealthy. Shiny, new, sparkly and pretty.  I love Charlotte for what it is. Living in DC (literally, I’m a 5 minute walk away from the US Capitol) and I have to say. Life here is not that different than CLT. I work in Tyson’s. By far most people are soccer moms and dads who live in homes in Fairfax, shop at Harris Teeters, take their kids to the soccer field, shop at Tyson’s mall and maybe visit DC once a year. 

Edited November 17, 2018 by AirNostrumMAD

[SydneyCarton]

I like Atlanta.  It has a nice climate, nice suburbs, and a very low cost of living.  However,  I prefer Charlotte and Nashville.   

Atlanta is doing well, and I think that's great.  It's building some nice little towers and is filling out.  However, I'm surprised by the shock that my friends from Alpharetta expressed by the fact that Atlanta wasn't picked.   There's one city in America that's building supertall towers like wildfire and that has scores of super luxury towers with apartments over $50m.  This City was selected, and Atlanta was not, for many reasons.  It's the same reason that this City is the HQ to over 80 Fortune Five Hundred Companies and is home to the richest people in the world.  It's the same reason why Ivy grads go there more than to any other city and why JP Morgan Chase is tearing down a 750' tower to build a 1,566' tower on the very same spot on Park Avenue.  Amazon wanted urban, and they got it.  Lastly, notwithstanding the unparalleled urbanity, as shown in the last photos, travel twenty miles to the north, and one finds mountains and tranquility in centuries old historic towns.

 

R. Silver Photography

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Edited November 17, 2018 by SydneyCarton