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Orlando Magic Entertainment Complex [Proposed]


Dale

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There is most certainly a common thread between them (both Mayors Glenda and Buddy were protégés of Mayor Bill).

Bill and Glenda both got how important the neighborhoods were. Buddy never has - he’s been pure Robert Moses without a hint of Jane Jacobs. That is clear when you remember he is the only one of the three to run the bulldozers without community input.

You’re correct we’ve been running the corporatist thread for decades now and it’s time to move beyond that, imho. 

Yes, there are many top tier cities that struggle as they change from one model to the other but there are others that have succeeded and we should learn from them (Minneapolis seems to be succeeding). Who knows? We may also create a new Orlando way. 

I do think it interesting that you seem to think it’s ok for a developer to essentially leave a prime city lot empty for 25 years or however long so the developer may maximize profit. 

That may be great for the developer but horrible for the city. That’s the Jacksonville model (we saw it here also at the duPont Centre II site).

Lord Keynes said it best: “In the long run we are all dead.” Our citizens deserve better than that.

I’m also prompted to note that organic growth begins to show results almost immediately (albeit block by block and incremental) whereas big projects implore us to wait for some huge payoff that may or may not ever happen. 

The former leads to hope and a decrease in things like crime, challenges with the homeless, etc. The latter tends to increase those problems because, as Jane Jacobs pointed out, there are no “eyes on the street.”

We see it most clearly here in Orlando with a comparison. Thornton Park/Lawsona/Eola Heights came back so successfully that many don’t remember when those neighborhoods seemed as doomed to failure as Parramore.

Meanwhile, west of I4 we’re still waiting.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited by spenser1058
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9 hours ago, AmIReal said:

If I was the developer I would purchase the land (done), get everyone out of it (soon to be done) while working on lining up tenants before I ever put a shovel in the ground. I'd rather have the $10M carrying costs of recently vacated property then building a $200M property that is set up to fail because there is no traffic. Remember a significant portion of this is supposed to be retail- which needs traffic. All those other projects built downtown had a built in need. They were not attempting to create need.

 

So can you explain why step 2, get everyone out of it, is necessary, to either do step 3, or to carry the land for 10 years?

If everything else you say is valid, and I don't doubt it, the successful developers will still try to milk the property for all its worth before they demolish it and have it sit as empty land. Synchronize all leases to a common end date, only offer shorter renewal periods/go month to month, etc. The existing retail spots were still somewhat valuable being right outside of the arena and soccer stadium. They had more, better/covered parking in the garage that was in a perfectly fine state that they could probably charge more for.

To me, the only reasons why they wouldn't do that are:

1) Defrauding the seller/government about the promises to redevelop this land and wanting to secure the property from lawsuits based on that fraud

2) Trying to create blight to create a need for tax incentives for their new project

What other reason is there?

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2 hours ago, aent said:

What other reason is there?

3) Poor planning

4) Ineptitude

5) Evolving scope

6) Changing realities on the ground

etc.

Maybe the Magic intended to break ground within a year of leveling everything. They partner with Foundry and develop a basic plan then go out to sell it. Foundry comes back and says "dudes, have you seen what's going on with I-4? People can't safely walk/ drive to our location and we just realized the community to our north, south and west is not our target market. Our potential customers won't return our calls so unless you want to fill this up with hair salons and vacant bars we need to rethink this thing". 

I haven't read the agreement the City has with the Magic for this project, but I'd assume it has a commencement clause. What is the trigger date and what factors can reset the clock. Was it tied to possession of the property? If so, the clock starts now- not as jrs2 says back in 2013 when the project idea was "floated". 

Pretty much everything related to this project could/ should have been handled better, I just don't necessarily see anything nefarious here.

4 hours ago, spenser1058 said:

I do think it interesting that you seem to think it’s ok for a developer to essentially leave a prime city lot empty for 25 years or however long so the developer may maximize profit

I'm not sure who mentioned 25 years and I never said I thought it was ok, but I recognize many valid reasons we could be where we are with this project.

From the very beginning I've heard the completion date was expected to be in 6-7 years (starting at 2015), putting it at 2022ish. They've obviously blown the start date, but completion is possible within that broad window. Yes, there was talk of doing it in phases and having part of it ready for the 2018 all star game, but that talk came from sports writers- I don't recall the Magic camp mentioning being ready that soon.

 

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I don't know.  We already saw how they used tourist tax for DPAC, Amway, and The Citrus Bowl.  It set a precedent of sorts.  Why should the MEC be any different complexion-wise?  So, if I was the developer I would argue there is a public benefit from this- especially since Buddy requested that the hotel have adequate ballroom space for the benefit of tourism and meetings downtown.

The OBJ loves to have news stories and hot topics even when the toilet has already been flushed, so they'll run with the hype machine because hype sells subscriptions.

Apartments are hot, right?  Build the apartment tower and get things rolling. They won't.

I won't blame Buddy if he caves to any proposals made by them, because at the end of the day his goal is filling hotel rooms, restaurant seats, store aisles, and office space downtown, and if it can be justified, he'll agree to it because it's a win-win.

I don't buy the I-4 construction impediment argument.  I get it; I just don't believe a tourist cares about roadwork issues.  

But, I do get the walk path argument under I-4 down Church St, but that shouldn't be an issue because how many times have we walked along Michigan Ave, Broadway, 5th Ave, etc, underneath temporary walkway covers because of overhead construction?  A lot.  It's expected and people still do it.  It's the panhandlers that are the impediment if at all.

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I cannot see a solid rationale for providing the Devos family any tourist tax support for building an entertainment complex.  Imagine if Universal demanded the same to build Citywalk or for Disney to build Disney Springs.  This is definitely an unnecessarily blighted plot of land that once housed some long time tenants who were pushed out with the promise, if my memory serves me, that they would actually be offered retail space and support from the developer to thrive in the complex.

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  • 2 weeks later...

Not sure if I should put it here, but, the development across the street (Corner of W Central and N Division) from MEC has started proposing to the MPB. No images of the project but specs are included in the report.

DXV Central - 17 floors (182’)

Parking (417 Spaces) - Floors 1-7

Office - Floors 8-10

Residential (189 Units) - Floors 11-17

 

https://orlando.novusagenda.com/AgendaWeb/AttachmentViewer.ashx?AttachmentID=87087&ItemID=48666

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1 hour ago, DreS0803 said:

Not sure if I should put it here, but, the development across the street (Corner of W Central and N Division) from MEC has started proposing to the MPB. No images of the project but specs are included in the report.

DXV Central - 17 floors (182’)

Parking (417 Spaces) - Floors 1-7

Office - Floors 8-10

Residential (189 Units) - Floors 11-17

 

https://orlando.novusagenda.com/AgendaWeb/AttachmentViewer.ashx?AttachmentID=87087&ItemID=48666

probably under the Downtown Orlando Project Discussion thread, until more definite info--- I guess...

I like the specs;   not the tallest, but, should be on par with the CV projects going up.

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52 minutes ago, jrs2 said:

probably under the Downtown Orlando Project Discussion thread, until more definite info--- I guess...

I like the specs;   not the tallest, but, should be on par with the CV projects going up.

Any vertical height is a welcome addition to that side of I-4.

If they'd just quit building everything so wide.

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4 hours ago, DreS0803 said:

Not sure if I should put it here, but, the development across the street (Corner of W Central and N Division) from MEC has started proposing to the MPB. No images of the project but specs are included in the report.

DXV Central - 17 floors (182’)

Parking (417 Spaces) - Floors 1-7

Office - Floors 8-10

Residential (189 Units) - Floors 11-17

 

https://orlando.novusagenda.com/AgendaWeb/AttachmentViewer.ashx?AttachmentID=87087&ItemID=48666

TDC has some renderings.

https://www.thedailycity.com/post/dxv-central-downtown-orlando

 

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O.U.R. Mission is ready to go but what of the historic neon sign atop the building? It might not survive the move to W. Colonial Drive:

https://www.orlandosentinel.com/news/orange-county/os-ne-moving-iconic-rescue-mission-cross-20190909-wbve5boeurde5jzbho33rz5waq-story.html

From the Sentinel 

Also interesting: the mission is ready to go but the article notes the Magic’s construction table is still “uncertain”. That’s somewhat the opposite from what we were recently told. More Fake News? *egad*

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  • 1 month later...

Hey, remember this thing... 

"The Orlando Magic has filed an updated master plan for the Sports + Entertainment District that’s expected to more than double the original $200 million project budget, executives told GrowthSpotter."

"will contain nearly 110,000 square feet of retail space, a conference center hotel with 80,000 square feet of event space, offices, apartments and a 2,500-space parking garage."

Its so happening...!!!

https://www.growthspotter.com/news/downtown-orlando-developments/gs-news-sed-update-20191025-v33lvbrjinanjgdduibus25dnm-story.html

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“With the relocation of the Orlando Union Rescue Mission to their new and improved facility, the next step in our process will be the demolition of the old Mission building, which we anticipate completing in the second quarter of 2020,” he said. "Our goal is now to complete the entire project in one phase, and as indicated in the PD Amendment application, to be complete by the end of 2022.”

 

I had hoped this would be close to done at some point next year. Hopefully there are no further major delays. Either way, 2023 should be a very exciting year for downtown Orlando!

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On 10/25/2019 at 10:22 PM, Uncommon said:

Either way, 2023 should be a very exciting year for downtown Orlando!

Very true. Just looking ahead at the defined area that will make up the new "Church Street Main Street Program" per https://bungalower.com/2019/10/27/church-street-main-street-moves-forward-with-expansion/ if everything falls into place:

2020- CSP 1 and 3 come online

2021 Terry Ave phase 1 and potential Westmoreland Trail

2022- CSP 2, Magic S+ED (aka MEC), EA building, DXV

2023 Terry Ave phase 2

2024- Under I4

Add to the above the continuous build out of CV over the next 5 years.

Sure, some of these dates may (will) move out, but I'd say I'm "very confident" that all of them (except DXV) eventually happen and I even give DXV a better than 50% chance.

 

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This will probably exceed the Plaza in largest development in downtown built at one point in time. Will have large impact on entire area.  I kinda like that Pine St doesn't cut through. It's all Pedestrian friendly. This has best chance to activate Downtown Retail.

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