Orlando Magic Entertainment Complex [Proposed]

[prahaboheme]

1 hour ago, codypet said:

Isn't Church St on its way with that?  Lion's Pride, Harry Buffalo, and Fergs (RIP) were all sports-ish bars.  I guess the point you're making in there is that Ceviche and Hamburger Mary's are sprinkled in there.

The irony being that while several of these concepts on Church Street have failed and have become rotating doors, the stalemate of CS for over a decade, Hamburger Marys, is actively being pushed out of their location. 

All hail the food hall trend!

[Dale]

I expect urban purists to sniff at this, but I do miss the Olive Garden on the sky bridge. 

[spenser1058]

5 minutes ago, Dale said:

I expect urban purists to sniff at this, but I do miss the Olive Garden on the sky bridge. 

I thought it was a great concept to have it stretch over the road and was readily accessible to everyone. The fact OG is a hometown company made it even better.

Because of the location, I know very few snobs who didn’t at least do lunch there.

Losing it is imho one of the biggest mistakes downtown has made.

[codypet]

14 minutes ago, spenser1058 said:

I thought it was a great concept to have it stretch over the road and was readily accessible to everyone. The fact OG is a hometown company made it even better.

Because of the location, I know very few snobs who didn’t at least do lunch there.

Losing it is imho one of the biggest mistakes downtown has made.

I never was there, but it sounded awesome.  Chains (particularly Olive Garden) have their place.  Someone earlier this week mentioned there not being enough 6-9pm places to eat mid range (where a chain like OG would shine).   I always kinda wished to Red Lobster test kitchen to morph into a full restaurant eventually.

1 hour ago, prahaboheme said:

The irony being that while several of these concepts on Church Street have failed and have become rotating doors, the stalemate of CS for over a decade, Hamburger Marys, is actively being pushed out of their location. 

All hail the food hall trend!

I feel Hamburger Marys would have been great at the old Spice location at Eola if they're truly being pushed out.   

Edited December 18, 2019 by codypet

[AmIReal]

4 minutes ago, codypet said:

I feel Hamburger Marys would have been great at the old Spice location at Eola if they're truly being pushed out.

I think that space is spoken for (at least for now), but Cheela appears to be on the way out and Brandon mentioned the Wahlburger spot is available. If Mary's wants to keep going downtown there are several sizable restaurant spaces available. I suspect they will not pursue them.

[spenser1058]

Personally, I wish the rumor about GJ also closing at TP is true and Mary would move there.

I’m hearing, however, over by PH or I-Drive is more likely (take it as an OBJ fluff piece - nothing solid). Once again, anything unique downtown that works is on borrowed time.

Edited December 18, 2019 by spenser1058

[Jerry95]

1 hour ago, AmIReal said:

I think that space is spoken for (at least for now), but Cheela appears to be on the way out and Brandon mentioned the Wahlburger spot is available. If Mary's wants to keep going downtown there are several sizable restaurant spaces available. I suspect they will not pursue them.

Is Wahlburgers on the way out?

[Dale]

3 hours ago, spenser1058 said:

I thought it was a great concept to have it stretch over the road and was readily accessible to everyone. The fact OG is a hometown company made it even better.

Because of the location, I know very few snobs who didn’t at least do lunch there.

Losing it is imho one of the biggest mistakes downtown has made.

It was mid-90’s, I think, when my wife and I hosted some Indian businessmen, Church Street was in full flower. One of the gentlemen exclaimed, “This is very, very unique!”

[AmIReal]

3 hours ago, Jerry95 said:

Is Wahlburgers on the way out?

Not sure. I asked about them recently and Brandon said their space was available. That would indicate they either have not yet, or will not, sign a new lease.

[IAmFloridaBorn]

So two phases now again? 

[AmIReal]

11 hours ago, IAmFloridaBorn said:

So two phases now again? 

Yes, but they call them "sub-phases" now.

"the residential and office towers and the parking garage first, followed by the hotel and conference center."

https://www.growthspotter.com/news/downtown-orlando-developments/gs-news-sed-mpb-20191217-kj27hkpnabgivlsqw4j2e4zvpi-story.html

[AmIReal]

Did I mention the residential tower is now at 23 stories?

[nite owℓ]

18 hours ago, AmIReal said:

Not sure. I asked about them recently and Brandon said their space was available. That would indicate they either have not yet, or will not, sign a new lease.

I'm not a chain-queen nor have I eaten there yet, but it is nice to have a visible franchise on the main drag. The landlord should work something out with them (if money is the issue).

Still waiting for McDonald's to come to the CBD...

[spenser1058]

6 minutes ago, nite owℓ said:

I'm not a chain-queen nor have I eaten there yet, but it is nice to have a visible franchise on the main drag. The landlord should work something out with them (if money is the issue).

Still waiting for McDonald's to come to the CBD...

The Taco Bell Cantina sure is taking its time. The interior is still nothing but bare drywall.

They’re doing some nice sprucing up to the exterior of the old Ivey’s building, though.

Ditching that cheesy plastic overhang and adding the corner sign is a major plus for the corner.

While we’re on Central, I also noticed we have pretty much a complete tree canopy from Rosalind to Magnolia now. It really makes the brutalism of the library seem more human.

Now, I’ll just wax nostalgic about the Royal Castle that used to be on Church St. and dream of taking home a half-gallon of Birch Beer.

 

Edited December 19, 2019 by spenser1058

[JFW657]

10 minutes ago, nite owℓ said:

I'm not a chain-queen nor have I eaten there yet, but it is nice to have a visible franchise on the main drag. The landlord should work something out with them (if money is the issue).

Still waiting for McDonald's to come to the CBD...

I've been saying that for years. 

[spenser1058]

13 minutes ago, JFW657 said:

I've been saying that for years. 

McD’s has just never done it for me (I really don’t like shoestring fries.)Wendy’s, please, if there’s no time for BEEFY.

[JFW657]

5 minutes ago, spenser1058 said:

McD’s has just never done it for me (I really don’t like shoestring fries.)Wendy’s, please, if there’s no time for BEEFY.

Oh, I don't want them there for their "food". I don't even like it much. Just once in awhile when I'm in the mood for some real junk.

I just want them there because without a downtown McD's, you don't really have a downtown.

Wendy's isn't that great either. Not what they used to be. Their burgers don't taste like they used to.

I do like me some Arbys , though.

[spenser1058]

15 minutes ago, JFW657 said:

Oh, I don't want them there for their "food". I don't even like it much. Just once in awhile when I'm in the mood for some real junk.

I just want them there because without a downtown McD's, you don't really have a downtown.

Wendy's isn't that great either. Not what they used to be. Their burgers don't taste like they used to.

I do like me some Arbys , though.

For the most part, once I was done with school, we went to Malcolm’s Hungry Bear for lunch at 50 and Westmoreland. The lunch buffet wasn’t much more than Wendy’s if you drank water. It was also the hangout for local TV folks (most of them weren’t paid that much better than state employees, I discovered).

Edited December 19, 2019 by spenser1058

[JFW657]

3 hours ago, spenser1058 said:

For the most part, once I was done with school, we went to  Hungry Bear for lunch at 50 and Westmoreland. The lunch buffet wasn’t much more than Wendy’s if you drank water. It was also the hangout for local TV folks (most of them weren’t paid that much better than state employees, I discovered).

I remember the place. I think I ate there once.

Wasn't very good as I recall, and I am a decidedly non-picky eater.

From late '84 to early '86 I worked at the venerable, notorious and former old Colony Plaza Hotel at the corner of 50 and Maguire in Ocoee.  Fun place to work, though the pay wasn't much. But they had a buffet breakfast, lunch and dinner that the employees got to eat for free.

The food was surprisingly good. 

I spent very little on food during that period.

[spenser1058]

35 minutes ago, JFW657 said:

I remember the place. I think I ate there once.

Wasn't very good as I recall, and I am a decidedly non-picky eater.

From late '84 to early '86 I worked at the venerable, notorious and former old Colony Plaza Hotel at the corner of 50 and Maguire in Ocoee.  Fun place to work, though the pay wasn't much. But they had a buffet breakfast, lunch and dinner that the employees got to eat for free.

The food was surprisingly good. 

I spent very little on food during that period.

You’re right -no one at at Malcolm’s for the quality; it was ayce and for twenty-something (mostly) males that was the draw. That plus the politics/news gossips among the up-and-comers who were perpetually underpaid.

My mom worked front desk when the Colony Plaza was still a Ramada Inn for about two years after it opened.

 

[jrs2]

On 12/18/2019 at 9:57 AM, AmIReal said:

What would be their purpose of buying land, hiring attorneys, architects and engineers, contracting with commercial realtors to place on market, seek and receive entitlements, demo buildings and go forth to the public that they are going to build the project. Was their goal all along to have a big, dusty parking lot? What sort of a "payout" would they be seeking from the City- buy back the land...? Sorry, but that just doesn't make sense.

Will the Magic build here? Likely, but if not it will get built on. There is just no reason to seek these very specific variances and entitlements unless you have a very specific  plan. That indicates, at least to me, someone has intent to build. 

Also, the timeline on this project doesn't worry me- I don't think 3-5 years build time is unusual- and I think the stated delays, buyout and relocation of the homeless shelter and I4 construction, are normal.

And yes, Pat Williams is still a shmuck, but is a fairly affable fellow.

3-5 years...I think they announced this project before the One Daytona project was announced, by comparison- an entertainment complex built by a major sports franchise/entity.  One Daytona has been open for at least a couple of years, and the MEC was announced 6-7 years ago. The Magic announced the project before March 2013.  They bought the land in October 2013 and before the years was out the City approved the plan.  That was 6 years ago

It does not make sense, I agree, but here's what else doesn't make sense:  they have an office component yet they are waiting and allowing more office space to be built and leased before their office building gets built.    And, this is a residential apartment market right now, right?  Yet hundreds maybe thousands of units are being built and opening before they even get close to breaking ground on their apartment component.  The market will be flooded before they ever open their apartment component.

So, what's the verdict here?  I saw plenty of motels getting razed in Daytona before the bust and nothing ever got built.  Here, the Magic razed that parking deck with retail in it- very convincing as to their intent indeed.  They razed OPD after OPD was rebuilt on OBT.  Very convincing as well.  I believe the original plan was for the OPD plot to be part of phase 2, i.e., the hotel.  But they never did anything.  Then they started focusing on the refuge and how they wanted to wait to raze and/or relocate it to move forward in one phase.  Then the stated delay because of I-4 construction and how they felt I-4 would be a walking hindrance from Hughey to Garland. Now, it's back to two phases.  Why? 

They already extorted the City and County for the Amway Center.  Why stop there?  Dyer wanted a large convention space in the hotel, right?  Fox Sports broadcasting booth?  Tourist spot to attract tourists?  Tourist tax implications?  Or maybe they're trying to sell the project?

Either way, I'm not Scott Powers by any stretch; I just have tracked them for a while and I don't like what I see.  Unicorp proposed and built a very risky venture on the site of the failed Mercado and spent a lot of money and little turnaround time in doing so.  They did this knowing they had to compete with Pointe Orlando to the south. 

Whatever "delays" have been stated by the Magic, they have all been created by the Magic, and not by anyone else.  Changing their plan from a one phase to a two phase project and back again or vice versa- multiple times, was a convenient media play by them.  

Is this just my negative spin on objective facts? It seems like it on the surface, but if you look closely, I'm just calling it like it actually is. When I evaluate all of this I keep asking myself what is really going on here.  The easy answer is that they don't have the money.  If true, then they are looking for money.

 

[AmIReal]

12 hours ago, jrs2 said:

3-5 years...I think they announced this project before the One Daytona project was announced, by comparison- an entertainment complex built by a major sports franchise/entity.  One Daytona has been open for at least a couple of years, and the MEC was announced 6-7 years ago. The Magic announced the project before March 2013.  They bought the land in October 2013 and before the years was out the City approved the plan.  That was 6 years ago

It does not make sense, I agree, but here's what else doesn't make sense:  they have an office component yet they are waiting and allowing more office space to be built and leased before their office building gets built.    And, this is a residential apartment market right now, right?  Yet hundreds maybe thousands of units are being built and opening before they even get close to breaking ground on their apartment component.  The market will be flooded before they ever open their apartment component.

So, what's the verdict here?  I saw plenty of motels getting razed in Daytona before the bust and nothing ever got built.  Here, the Magic razed that parking deck with retail in it- very convincing as to their intent indeed.  They razed OPD after OPD was rebuilt on OBT.  Very convincing as well.  I believe the original plan was for the OPD plot to be part of phase 2, i.e., the hotel.  But they never did anything.  Then they started focusing on the refuge and how they wanted to wait to raze and/or relocate it to move forward in one phase.  Then the stated delay because of I-4 construction and how they felt I-4 would be a walking hindrance from Hughey to Garland. Now, it's back to two phases.  Why? 

They already extorted the City and County for the Amway Center.  Why stop there?  Dyer wanted a large convention space in the hotel, right?  Fox Sports broadcasting booth?  Tourist spot to attract tourists?  Tourist tax implications?  Or maybe they're trying to sell the project?

Either way, I'm not Scott Powers by any stretch; I just have tracked them for a while and I don't like what I see.  Unicorp proposed and built a very risky venture on the site of the failed Mercado and spent a lot of money and little turnaround time in doing so.  They did this knowing they had to compete with Pointe Orlando to the south. 

Whatever "delays" have been stated by the Magic, they have all been created by the Magic, and not by anyone else.  Changing their plan from a one phase to a two phase project and back again or vice versa- multiple times, was a convenient media play by them.  

Is this just my negative spin on objective facts? It seems like it on the surface, but if you look closely, I'm just calling it like it actually is. When I evaluate all of this I keep asking myself what is really going on here.  The easy answer is that they don't have the money.  If true, then they are looking for money.

 

Some very good points and I agree with some of what you said, but disagree with the conclusion that it won't get done.

This project actually goes back even further. In 2003 the Mayor's Downtown Strategic Transition Team identified keep the Magic as the number 1 priority in their Cornerstone plan. The land in question was all rezoned- I think it was 2006- to allow for a sports and entertainment complex.  It was November 2013 before the framework for a deal and what the project would entail was put forth. This included purchase of OPD building which stated the City would be paid up front for the building and leased back at below market rates. The upfront money was used to build the new OPD. 

By the time the Magic got the OPD land it was 2017 and that was when they tore down the parking building and OPD. The homeless shelter agreed to sell in 2014, but did not have to vacate for 5 years.- a few months ago.

So, when does the timeline begin? I'm sure reasonable people can disagree, but I think the delay up until they took possession of the OPD land is easily understandable. So, late 2017?

OTOH, I think at that point they started revising the scope and scale- moved where some building would be and decided it was only 2 years until the shelter would leave and they could wait until then. So, 2019?

As someone who walks to a lot of games I assure I4 construction is a detriment to the experience. So I can see that weighing into their decision, but I don't think it is the overriding factor in their delay.

BTW, they will absolutely get TDT and CRA money for a conference center. That was already mentioned in the 2003 Cornerstone report.

I'm pretty sure they have the money and I don't think they'd have any problem raising more if they want it. Large scale development money is fairly easy to come by right now. There are numerous investors who would scoop this up if possible.

[IAmFloridaBorn]

On 12/19/2019 at 8:48 AM, AmIReal said:

Yes, but they call them "sub-phases" now.

"the residential and office towers and the parking garage first, followed by the hotel and conference center."

https://www.growthspotter.com/news/downtown-orlando-developments/gs-news-sed-mpb-20191217-kj27hkpnabgivlsqw4j2e4zvpi-story.html

Thanks. But links to paid websites so me no good. This is why I ask questions if I fail to find my answer via search. I trust you people lol

[AmIReal]

27 minutes ago, IAmFloridaBorn said:

Thanks. But links to paid websites so me no good. This is why I ask questions if I fail to find my answer via search. I trust you people lol

No problem. I almost always try to provide some synopsis when I post these links, while being mindful of the source.

[AmIReal]

The OBJ is today reporting the City wants convention/ conference space in downtown and they are willing to provide incentives to get it. Supposedly the City will offer to exclude convention space from FAR calculation which allows developers to increase density by that amount of space. I thought this was being done specifically for the Magic S+ED- I mentioned this back in mid-December when it looked like it was targeted to their unique zoning.

Now it looks like the City expands the credit to include the entire CRA, per the article. I would assume any and all hotel proposals will now include significant meeting spaces.

https://www.bizjournals.com/orlando/news/2020/01/06/downtown-wants-slice-of-75b-tourism-industry-and.html?iana=hpmvp_orl_news_headline

 

 

 

Edited January 6, 2020 by AmIReal