Orlando Magic Entertainment Complex [Proposed]

[spenser1058]

They had convention space at Expo Centre and it was a bust (amazing how conventions prefer to be where the convention infrastructure is and where the bowl teams prefer to headquarter).

Meanwhile, they refuse to offer incentives for retail for the people (including students) who, you know, live here.

I’m glad their priorities are in order.

[jrs2]

59 minutes ago, AmIReal said:

The OBJ is today reporting the City wants convention/ conference space in downtown and they are willing to provide incentives to get it. Supposedly the City will offer to exclude convention space from FAR calculation which allows developers to increase density by that amount of space. I thought this was being done specifically for the Magic S+ED- I mentioned this back in mid-December when it looked like it was targeted to their unique zoning.

Now it looks like the City expands the credit to include the entire CRA, per the article. I would assume any and all hotel proposals will now include significant meeting spaces.

https://www.bizjournals.com/orlando/news/2020/01/06/downtown-wants-slice-of-75b-tourism-industry-and.html?iana=hpmvp_orl_news_headline

 

 

 

Ah ha!

There ya go.  The City of Daytona Beach allows restricted beach access for the Protogroup project so then they have to allow it for the Desert Inn/Westin/Hard Rock which had already been denied it two years earlier.

Of course the City would have to expand this credit to the entire CRA knowing that nobody in their right mid is gonna build convention space except for...The MEC...

That's at least one thing that they've been waiting for.  I'm sure the other or an other will hit the ether soon.

55 minutes ago, spenser1058 said:

They had convention space at Expo Centre and it was a bust (amazing how conventions prefer to be where the convention infrastructure is and where the bowl teams prefer to headquarter).

Meanwhile, they refuse to offer incentives for retail for the people (including students) who, you know, live here.

I’m glad their priorities are in order.

it's solely for the benefit of The Magic, but it's shrouded...see above...

[spenser1058]

3 minutes ago, jrs2 said:

Ah ha!

There ya go.  The City of Daytona Beach allows restricted beach access for the Protogroup project so then they have to allow it for the Desert Inn/Westin/Hard Rock which had already been denied it two years earlier.

Of course the City would have to expand this credit to the entire CRA knowing that nobody in their right mid is gonna build convention space except for...The MEC...

That's at least one thing that they've been waiting for.  I'm sure the other or an other will hit the ether soon.

it's solely for the benefit of The Magic, but it's shrouded...see above...

Thanks for this - as I read it, that’s the first thing I thought. A sweetheart deal is much more palatable if it doesn’t appear to be targeted to one firm even if it really is.

it’s just like baseball - everyone knows that dog won’t hunt in Florida but if government is paying for it, they take the hit and when you sell the team you sell it for an inflated price and make billions.

Meanwhile, you can let the city take the hit for a convention facility that experience shows is not what the industry wants.

OTOH - both retail outfits you invested in are not only providing a valuable service to your residents and actually paying taxes. We can’t have that, can we?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited January 6, 2020 by spenser1058

[AmIReal]

8 minutes ago, jrs2 said:

Of course the City would have to expand this credit to the entire CRA knowing that nobody in their right mid is gonna build convention space except for...The MEC...

I guess I came to a different conclusion and think future hotels will likely add this to their plans if it now means they will not need to give up offset space for rooms. Conference business is very lucrative and most larger hotels prefer to have them.

57 minutes ago, spenser1058 said:

They had convention space at Expo Centre and it was a bust (amazing how conventions prefer to be where the convention infrastructure is and where the bowl teams prefer to headquarter).

Meanwhile, they refuse to offer incentives for retail for the people (including students) who, you know, live here.

I’m glad their priorities are in order.

Except that space was nasty and unusable and is now long gone. Downtown didn't need conference space back then- especially in that location.  The linked article, as well as several others have quoted commercial realtors saying downtown meeting space is a must have- I think I'll side with their opinion.

Also, as previously mentioned in the Orlando Retail thread there are numerous incentives for downtown retail, there just seems to be little appetite for them.

https://www.orlando.gov/Building-Development/Business-Incentives/Business-Incentive-Programs

[JFW657]

1 hour ago, spenser1058 said:

They had convention space at Expo Centre and it was a bust (amazing how conventions prefer to be where the convention infrastructure is and where the bowl teams prefer to headquarter).

Meanwhile, they refuse to offer incentives for retail for the people (including students) who, you know, live here.

I’m glad their priorities are in order.

I don't know how much of a "bust" it was, as it was in operation for a good number of years. I actually attended a few events there and of course, when they built the (Omni International back then) hotel next door, they connected it via a passageway from the hotel kitchen and food service area to the Expo Center.

I always figured it closed because it lost so much business to all the other convention space on I-Drive that it just wasn't profitable anymore.

59 minutes ago, AmIReal said:

I guess I came to a different conclusion and think future hotels will likely add this to their plans if it now means they will not need to give up offset space for rooms. Conference business is very lucrative and most larger hotels prefer to have them.

Except that space was nasty and unusable and is now long gone. Downtown didn't need conference space back then- especially in that location.  The linked article, as well as several others have quoted commercial realtors saying downtown meeting space is a must have- I think I'll side with their opinion.

Also, as previously mentioned in the Orlando Retail thread there are numerous incentives for downtown retail, there just seems to be little appetite for them.

https://www.orlando.gov/Building-Development/Business-Incentives/Business-Incentive-Programs

What was so nasty about it? I've been in there a number of times, attended events there and never found it to be nasty. A bit on the small side maybe, but OK for smaller events. I think the last event I attended there was a vintage guitar show. 

[Dale]

Does this mean they’ll have to rejig plans and push back another couple years ?

[spenser1058]

Dale is my hero.

[jrs2]

2 hours ago, AmIReal said:

I guess I came to a different conclusion and think future hotels will likely add this to their plans if it now means they will not need to give up offset space for rooms. Conference business is very lucrative and most larger hotels prefer to have them.

Except that space was nasty and unusable and is now long gone. Downtown didn't need conference space back then- especially in that location.  The linked article, as well as several others have quoted commercial realtors saying downtown meeting space is a must have- I think I'll side with their opinion.

Also, as previously mentioned in the Orlando Retail thread there are numerous incentives for downtown retail, there just seems to be little appetite for them.

https://www.orlando.gov/Building-Development/Business-Incentives/Business-Incentive-Programs

Yeah, I'd have to agree with JFW ala it being nasty even as recent as 2000; maybe considered ages ago now, but it was converted many years ago.  I also attended a couple black tie events in their or one of their ballrooms (oh boy, did Bon Scott hear that reference?)

But I see your point about the "need" for downtown space.  But consider this:  the two story Travelodge is getting replaced by the 8-9 story Hampton Inn.  The Residence Inn was the last hotel built prior to this construction.  And before that, OUC converted into the Aloft.  I don't think there's been another hotel built during this timeframe other than downtown losing the Holiday Inn and Harley, both of which were converted to condos during the boom.  Marriott is back, thank God!

My point here is that aside from that hotel proposed for Washington & Rosalind, I personally do not see any hotel being built here other than the one at the MEC, so, as Spenser concurs with my pessimism on this subject, I truly believe that I am right-but, I hope I'm wrong and that this will spurn some unanticipated hotel + ballroom space development downtown.

[spenser1058]

3 minutes ago, jrs2 said:

Yeah, I'd have to agree with JFW ala it being nasty even as recent as 2000; maybe considered ages ago now, but it was converted many years ago.  I also attended a couple black tie events in their or one of their ballrooms (oh boy, did Bon Scott hear that reference?)

But I see your point about the "need" for downtown space.  But consider this:  the two story Travelodge is getting replaced by the 8-9 story Hampton Inn.  The Residence Inn was the last hotel built prior to this construction.  And before that, OUC converted into the Aloft.  I don't think there's been another hotel built during this timeframe other than downtown losing the Holiday Inn and Harley, both of which were converted to condos during the boom.  Marriott is back, thank God!

My point here is that aside from that hotel proposed for Washington & Rosalind, I personally do not see any hotel being built here other than the one at the MEC, so, as Spenser concurs with my pessimism on this subject, I truly believe that I am right-but, I hope I'm wrong and that this will spurn some unanticipated hotel + ballroom space development downtown.

I first got into this issue when I was talking to downtown hoteliers during Buddy’s first run for mayor. I knew Expo hadn’t really panned out from the get-go and it was then I got an education about how conventions work and that downtown could never really compete (we’re not alone - downtown Las Vegas is in the same boat - Bob Snow tried and, as we know, is back in Orlando).

There’s this odd tendency here to be unhappy with anything in Orlando that’s not downtown. We’ve always been decentralized, beginning with Dr. Phillips’ groves on Sand Lake. Then, in 1957 our largest industrial employer chose to locate in BFE. It was confirmed when our university was founded in 1963 and decided to locate as close to NASA as it could and still be in Orange County. It became even more true in 1965 when Walt started our newest major industry, tourism, in a swamp 20 miles from town.  Local residents ratified that by rejecting downtown for I-Drive when it came time to build our convention center.

Downtown is the governmental and accounting/legal/professional center of the region. Everything else has been located elsewhere for 160 years. Good luck telling everyone to upend their infrastructure and move because those of us at Urban Planet have put on Jean-Luc’s comm badge and said, “make it so!”

[Dale]

32 minutes ago, spenser1058 said:

Dale is my hero.

Ha-Ha! I made a comeback for the ages!

[jrs2]

29 minutes ago, spenser1058 said:

I first got into this issue when I was talking to downtown hoteliers during Buddy’s first run for mayor. I knew Expo hadn’t really panned out from the get-go and it was then I got an education about how conventions work and that downtown could never really compete (we’re not alone - downtown Las Vegas is in the same boat - Bob Snow tried and, as we know, is back in Orlando).

There’s this odd tendency here to be unhappy with anything in Orlando that’s not downtown. We’ve always been decentralized, beginning with Dr. Phillips’ groves on Sand Lake. Then, in 1957 our largest industrial employer chose to locate in BFE. It was confirmed when our university was founded in 1963 and decided to locate as close to NASA as it could and still be in Orange County. It became even more true in 1965 when Walt started our newest major industry, tourism, in a swamp 20 miles from town.  Local residents ratified that by rejecting downtown for I-Drive when it came time to build our convention center.

Downtown is the governmental and accounting/legal/professional center of the region. Everything else has been located elsewhere for 160 years. Good luck telling everyone to upend their infrastructure and move because those of us at Urban Planet have put on Jean-Luc’s comm badge and said, “make it so!”

yeah...ya know... it's the nature of the Orlando beast.

I wish it was different, like the way the GWCC is in downtown Atlanta.  But, that's ok.  the OCCC has created an epicenter on I-Drive that has attracted lots of types of developments and will be directly capitalizing on Epic Universe's functionality as it markets to future conventioneers.  Downtown has developed in a different manner sans the convention industry.  But, there are still business meetings here, without a doubt, predominantly at Grand Bohemian, Embassy Suites, Aloft,  the Marriott, and Radisson/Sonesta/Whatever it's called now up the road.  

I am always happy to see developments outside of downtown, because I like to see empty lots improved and/or developed.  Like that Hilton u/c off Westwood behind 528, for example, that's huge to me; it may or sill springboard other hotels nearby.  I love that stuff.

FYI, Star Trek: Picard begins 1-23-20 on CBS All Access.  Let's hope the resurrection of Jean Luc is more successful than the resurrection of Palpatine was for Kathleen Kennedy.

[JFW657]

22 minutes ago, spenser1058 said:

I first got into this issue when I was talking to downtown hoteliers during Buddy’s first run for mayor. I knew Expo hadn’t really panned out from the get-go and it was then I got an education about how conventions work and that downtown could never really compete (we’re not alone - downtown Las Vegas is in the same boat - Bob Snow tried and, as we know, is back in Orlando).

There’s this odd tendency here to be unhappy with anything in Orlando that’s not downtown. We’ve always been decentralized, beginning with Dr. Phillips’ groves on Sand Lake. Then, in 1957 our largest industrial employer chose to locate in BFE. It was confirmed when our university was founded in 1963 and decided to locate as close to NASA as it could and still be in Orange County. It became even more true in 1965 when Walt started our newest major industry, tourism, in a swamp 20 miles from town.  Local residents ratified that by rejecting downtown for I-Drive when it came time to build our convention center.

Downtown is the governmental and accounting/legal/professional center of the region. Everything else has been located elsewhere for 160 years. Good luck telling everyone to upend their infrastructure and move because those of us at Urban Planet have put on Jean-Luc’s comm badge and said, “make it so!”

I'm thinking that maybe there's a confusion or confluence of terms going here when talking about "convention" vs "conference" space.

I think convention is a term that tends to be used interchangeably with conference, even though there is a bit of a difference. Conferences tend to be smaller than full on conventions and more along the lines of what a downtown Orlando facility would attract. I think there is or could very well be, enough of a demand for downtown conference space to support a decent sized facility.

Not every business wants or needs to be in the middle of that mess down on I-Drive or can afford to pay the cost of renting space in the OCCC.  Plus, given how busy the convention business is getting (or has gotten) down there, scheduling issues and conflicts for smaller events could be getting more and more common, creating a market for the smaller downtown conference amenities.

[jrs2]

20 minutes ago, JFW657 said:

I'm thinking that maybe there's a confusion or confluence of terms going here when talking about "convention" vs "conference" space.

I think convention is a term that tends to be used interchangeably with conference, even though there is a bit of a difference. Conferences tend to be smaller than full on conventions and more along the lines of what a downtown Orlando facility would attract. I think there is or could very well be, enough of a demand for downtown conference space to support a decent sized facility.

Not every business wants or needs to be in the middle of that mess down on I-Drive or can afford to pay the cost of renting space in the OCCC.  Plus, given how busy the convention business is getting (or has gotten) down there, scheduling issues and conflicts for smaller events could be getting more and more common, creating a market for the smaller downtown conference amenities.

^^

what you said...

[spenser1058]

1 hour ago, jrs2 said:

^^

what you said...

Given that Embassy and DoubleTree have breakout space (a lot in the case of DT), as does the Marriott (does the Bohemian? I haven’t attended meetings there), I wonder how much additional space is required.

I’ll give you that we’re losing the Ballroom, but did I read they planned to make alternate meeting space available in the new hotel?

There seems to be quite a bit of space available already for smaller meetings so I’m curious what threshold would be served  by the Magic that won’t already work downtown that isn’t large enough for the hotels on I-Drive? I readily concede there may be markets I’m missing. I also know most of the meetings held at the downtown hotels and Expo were local meetings - has that changed or is there a reasonable expectation it would?

[AmIReal]

I texted my old roommate who participates in scheduling meetings for the Florida bar. He described the Expo as a toilet and a few other less favorable terms. I asked my ex gf who schedules events for mostly tech events- she was more helpful. She said the Expo venue never had dedicated staff and the overall experience was less than she would accept for her clients. She called it a "charity venue" because it was cheap for those events, but had fairly low expectations. Both of the above groups hosted events locally this year and they said their clients could care less about the parks, but they had to locate there due to space. They wanted event space, decent catering and above average hotel space. Jill (exgf) said her largest local group was 1500 and she hosted a few 300-500 groups.

4 hours ago, Dale said:

Does this mean they’ll have to rejig plans and push back another couple years ?

The conference space has always been a part of the magic development. I think the change in zoning/ incentive is coming up now because the Magic presented a larger project/ footprint in their last iteration and now City staff is trying to make it work with existing code (which it doesn't). I don't interpret that as a bad thing... If you want to plop a half billion dollar project in my city I'm likely to try to help you do so.

As @JFW657 said this is not a plan to host huge events, but a plan for space for 500-1500 attendees. There is currently no where downtown to host these events. Last year, Microsoft, Google and numerous pharmaceutical companies hosted meetings on I-drive, then loaded their executives in vans and rented the entire Rusty Spoon for dinner. This has happened for every year Rusty Spoon was open (the advantage of having a large space and a Beard nominee chef). 

@spenser1058 its not the 1970's so where Martin and UCF set up is not pertinent. Having spent a dozen years on the road attending the type meeting this venue would attract the infrastructure of I-drive or the parks is not needed. Leave that to the really big events and skim the business planner who wants a quality space, possibly downtown environment over a tourist environment- they are numerous. If you really want retail downtown the best path to making that happen is more non-locals on the street. The best way to make that happen is tourists (we do not have the assets for that) or conference attendees. 

 

Edited January 7, 2020 by AmIReal

[JFW657]

1 hour ago, spenser1058 said:

Given that Embassy and DoubleTree have breakout space (a lot in the case of DT), as does the Marriott (does the Bohemian? I haven’t attended meetings there), I wonder how much additional space is required.

I’ll give you that we’re losing the Ballroom, but did I read they planned to make alternate meeting space available in the new hotel?

There seems to be quite a bit of space available already for smaller meetings so I’m curious what threshold would be served  by the Magic that won’t already work downtown that isn’t large enough for the hotels on I-Drive? I readily concede there may be markets I’m missing. I also know most of the meetings held at the downtown hotels and Expo were local meetings - has that changed or is there a reasonable expectation it would?

If there's a fairly large hotel that's part of the MEC plan, that's a ready market for the conference space that would likely be part of the hotel.

[AmIReal]

8 hours ago, JFW657 said:

If there's a fairly large hotel that's part of the MEC plan, that's a ready market for the conference space that would likely be part of the hotel.

There is and yes.

[smileguy]

11 hours ago, spenser1058 said:

There seems to be quite a bit of space available already for smaller meetings so I’m curious what threshold would be served  by the Magic that won’t already work downtown that isn’t large enough for the hotels on I-Drive? I readily concede there may be markets I’m missing. I also know most of the meetings held at the downtown hotels and Expo were local meetings - has that changed or is there a reasonable expectation it would?

We have a lot of space for very small events (200 or fewer), a couple of spaces for events with 400 people, and not much else.  What we need is a conference space (ballrooms and breakouts) for a 800-1200 (maybe up to 1500) person event, plus a few hundred more rooms to support that.  I know the City has tried to lure meetings here but there just isn't a venue that will accommodate, and meeting planners don't want to split up between buildings with different operators, payments, vendors, etc.  I think there are plenty of small (for the industry) conventions that DTO could easily secure. 

I think that the parcel behind DPC would be great for a convention hotel that would have an agreement to rent the halls there for large sessions. 

[JFW657]

3 hours ago, smileguy said:

We have a lot of space for very small events (200 or fewer), a couple of spaces for events with 400 people, and not much else.  What we need is a conference space (ballrooms and breakouts) for a 800-1200 (maybe up to 1500) person event, plus a few hundred more rooms to support that.  I know the City has tried to lure meetings here but there just isn't a venue that will accommodate, and meeting planners don't want to split up between buildings with different operators, payments, vendors, etc.  I think there are plenty of small (for the industry) conventions that DTO could easily secure. 

I think that the parcel behind DPC would be great for a convention hotel that would have an agreement to rent the halls there for large sessions. 

The downtown Double Tree Hilton has a ballroom that, according to their web page, can accommodate 1,000 people.

"We have the capacity to accommodate up to 1,000 attendees and have many meeting space options for small meetings and corporate events."

https://doubletree3.hilton.com/en/hotels/florida/doubletree-by-hilton-hotel-orlando-downtown-MCOODDT/event/index.html

Of course, that's just one property. Certainly at least another one is needed.

[AmIReal]

3 hours ago, JFW657 said:

The downtown Double Tree Hilton has a ballroom that, according to their web page, can accommodate 1,000 people.

It is also far removed from everything and therefore the attendees don't activate the streets around them. It is also not at the quality level of the hotels that will be at CSP1, CSP2 and S+ED (I assume). But, yes there is a venue there. I did a lot of events there in the early 2000's, but have never seen anything approaching 1000 people there.

[spenser1058]

Marriott Downtown has meeting space for up to 800;

Grand Bo is 200;

Embassy Suites is 1350;

Courtyard is 70;

Crowne Plaza is 400;

Aloft is 600;

DPCPA, in addition to theater space, will accommodate 850 reception style and 600 banquet style once Steinmetz Hall is done; meanwhile, there are a variety of smaller spaces available;

Sorosis Hall is 241;

Citrus Club is 225;

The larger downtown churches also have significant meeting space available; FUMCO in particular has some great facilities made possible by the state of the art building made possible by DPAC <g>.

If other AC by Marriott hotels in downtown settings are any indication, ours at CSP will likely provide a couple of meeting rooms with a maximum capacity of 100 or so each;

Moving further afield from downtown, several of the Loch Haven facilities and Plaza Live (Milk District) also welcome meetings.

 

 

Edited January 8, 2020 by spenser1058

[AmIReal]

2 hours ago, spenser1058 said:

Marriott Downtown has meeting space for up to 800;

Grand Bo is 200;

Embassy Suites is 1350;

Courtyard is 70;

Crowne Plaza is 400;

Aloft is 600;

DPCPA, in addition to theater space, will accommodate 850 reception style and 600 banquet style once Steinmetz Hall is done; meanwhile, there are a variety of smaller spaces available;

Sorosis Hall is 241;

Citrus Club is 225;

The larger downtown churches also have significant meeting space available; FUMCO in particular has some great facilities made possible by the state of the art building made possible by DPAC <g>.

If other AC by Marriott hotels in downtown settings are any indication, ours at CSP will likely provide a couple of meeting rooms with a maximum capacity of 100 or so each;

Moving further afield from downtown, several of the Loch Haven facilities and Plaza Live (Milk District) also welcome meetings.

 

 

If I move a few houseplants I could squeeze a dozen in my living room. And if someone would loan me a card table and maybe a couple lawn chairs I might get 30 or so in my back yard.

[HankStrong]

9 hours ago, AmIReal said:

If I move a few houseplants I could squeeze a dozen in my living room. And if someone would loan me a card table and maybe a couple lawn chairs I might get 30 or so in my back yard.

Weak!  For my wife's friend's engagement party we had 50 indoors only (it was pouring and 90+ outside) and we survived.  Barely, but we survived.

[spenser1058]

My point is that saying there are no meeting venues downtown is false.

What probably is true is that our CVB (Visit Orlando) mostly ignores downtown in favor of the tourist zone.

What would likely help is to have someone downtown coordinating with Visit Orlando and sharing the wonders of some unique venues in the core.

DDB would of course be a good place to set up such a function if it were at all entrepreneurial but they’re  really busy pushing paper or something.

Of course, as jrs2 points out, this is really more about more breaks for the Magic so if I were Mr. Chatmon I probably wouldn’t spend much effort on it either.

Edited January 8, 2020 by spenser1058

[JFW657]

1 hour ago, spenser1058 said:

My point is that saying there are no meeting venues downtown is false.

What probably is true is that our CVB (Visit Orlando) mostly ignores downtown in favor of the tourist zone.

What would likely help is to have someone downtown coordinating with Visit Orlando and sharing the wonders of some unique venues in the core.

DDB would of course be a good place to set up such a function if it were at all entrepreneurial but they’re  really busy pushing paper or something.

Of course, as jrs2 points out, this is really more about more breaks for the Magic so if I were Mr. Chatmon I probably wouldn’t spend much effort on it either.

I don't see what possible argument there could be against incorporating a large, empty, multipurpose room, which is basically all conference space is, into the design of a new downtown hotel, regardless of how much already exists. If the developer wants to pay for it, more power to them. Even if at some point in the future it turns out that the conference business never really materializes, they can easily convert it into something else just by building it out.