Orlando Magic Entertainment Complex [Proposed]

[spenser1058]

Let’s just say the DeVoses are doing for Orlando what Betsy DeVos is doing for public education.

Edited July 25, 2020 by spenser1058

[Jernigan]

11 hours ago, orange87 said:

So I'm guessing at this point, the Devos's scammed Orlando out of some cheap land and this will never get built? Am I about right on that one?

The current state of affairs in no way affect the NBA, convention/hotel space or investments...so I also see this as the only possible rationale.

[AmIReal]

9 hours ago, Jernigan said:

The current state of affairs in no way affect the NBA, convention/hotel space or investments...so I also see this as the only possible rationale.

#snark

[jack]

On 7/26/2020 at 2:32 AM, Jernigan said:

The current state of affairs in no way affect the NBA, convention/hotel space or investments...so I also see this as the only possible rationale.

Market conditions (per covid) and not a great site are the challenges. 

[spenser1058]

43 minutes ago, jack said:

Market conditions (per covid) and not a great site are the challenges. 

Sorry, but that’s an, ummm, copout. The new OPD actually opened in March, 2017. fully three years before COVID began to have an impact.

And it took a couple of years before that to build the thing. The DeVos family totally dropped the ball here and the administration, as they have done with them from the beginning, simply said, “please, Sir, may I have some more?”

It’s always been this way with Buddy and the DeVoses. The funding for the venues was predicated on the performing arts center going first, a reflection of public opinion surveys. There was little appetite for a new arena. However, the mayor bumped the interests of the wealthy family ahead of that of the public, and the performing arts center REMAINS INCOMPLETE 17 YEARS after he took office with a pledge to build it. That’s the Dyer legacy.

https://www.orlando.gov/Shortcut-Content/City-Buildings-Centers/Orlando-Police-Department-Headquarters

Edited July 27, 2020 by spenser1058

[jack]

7 minutes ago, spenser1058 said:

Sorry, but that’s an, ummm, copout. The new OPD actually opened in March, 2017. fully three years before COVID began to have an impact.

And it took a couple of years before that to build the thing. The DeVos family totally dropped the ball here and the administration, as they have done with them from the beginning, simply said, “please, Sir, may I have some more?”

It’s always been this way with Buddy and the DeVoses. The funding for the venues was predicated on the performing arts center going first, a reflection of public opinion surveys. There was little appetite for a new arena. However, the mayor bumped the interests of the wealthy family ahead of that of the public, and the performing arts center REMAINS INCOMPLETE 17 YEARS after he took office with a pledge to build it. That’s the Dyer legacy.

https://www.orlando.gov/Shortcut-Content/City-Buildings-Centers/Orlando-Police-Department-Headquarters

Auto correct. I meant to say pre covid. 

It was difficult to get that site off of the ground for the most experienced developer. The family has virtually no record of doing complex mixed use. Its not a bad site but its better to be east of I4, not west. 

He got the three venues built with almost no local taxpayer money (outside of CRA dollars) That is pretty impressive. I am not fan of using outsiders money for local benefits but I understand I am in the minority. 

Edited July 27, 2020 by jack

[spenser1058]

Just now, jack said:

Auto correct. I meant to say pre covid. 

It was difficult to get that site off of the ground for the most experienced developer. The family has virtually no record of doing complex mixed use. Its not a bad site but its better to be east of I4, not west. 

“The family has virtually no record of doing complex mixed use”. So, of course, it made perfect sense to give them city resources and put them in charge. That actually makes it worse. Incompetent? “Here ya go!”

 

 

 

4 minutes ago, jack said:

Auto correct. I meant to say pre covid. 

It was difficult to get that site off of the ground for the most experienced developer. The family has virtually no record of doing complex mixed use. Its not a bad site but its better to be east of I4, not west. 

He got the three venues built with almost no local taxpayer money (outside of CRA dollars) That is pretty impressive. I am not fan of using outsiders money for local benefits but I understand I am in the minority. 

There you go, pretending the TDT doesn’t count again. Even the Sentinel no longer accepts that dodge.

[spenser1058]

10 minutes ago, jack said:

Auto correct. I meant to say pre covid. 

It was difficult to get that site off of the ground for the most experienced developer. The family has virtually no record of doing complex mixed use. Its not a bad site but its better to be east of I4, not west. 

He got the three venues built with almost no local taxpayer money (outside of CRA dollars) That is pretty impressive. I am not fan of using outsiders money for local benefits but I understand I am in the minority. 

And, let’s be clear, 17 years after taking office, DPCPA still isn’t “built”. It’s 2/3 of a building. Even the architect pulled his name off the project when they did that.

And, let’s be even clearer: it was the project that was supposed to go first and had the community support. Buddy caved to the billionaires as he always has.

Edited July 27, 2020 by spenser1058

[Jerry95]

3 hours ago, jack said:

Its not a bad site but its better to be east of I4, not west. 

I'm not sure I follow your logic here. Creative Village and the Amway are east  west of I-4 and in a few years the Under-I park will remove a major barrier. This development will stand out to traffic on I-4.

In hindsight, they should never have been issued a demolition permit until they were ready to build.

Edited July 27, 2020 by Jerry95

[JFW657]

2 hours ago, Jerry95 said:

I'm not sure I follow your logic here. Creative Village and the Amway are east of I-4 and in a few years the Under-I park will remove a major barrier. This development will stand out to traffic on I-4.

In hindsight, they should never have been issued a demolition permit until they were ready to build.

[spenser1058]

5 minutes ago, JFW657 said:

I think he meant west. Hey, it’s Monday...

[JFW657]

3 hours ago, spenser1058 said:

Sorry, but that’s an, ummm, copout. The new OPD actually opened in March, 2017. fully three years before COVID began to have an impact.

And it took a couple of years before that to build the thing. The DeVos family totally dropped the ball here and the administration, as they have done with them from the beginning, simply said, “please, Sir, may I have some more?”

It’s always been this way with Buddy and the DeVoses. The funding for the venues was predicated on the performing arts center going first, a reflection of public opinion surveys. There was little appetite for a new arena. However, the mayor bumped the interests of the wealthy family ahead of that of the public, and the performing arts center REMAINS INCOMPLETE 17 YEARS after he took office with a pledge to build it. That’s the Dyer legacy.

  

1 minute ago, spenser1058 said:

I think he meant west. Hey, it’s Monday...

Yeah, I figured that but I had to mess with him a little.

[Jerry95]

4 minutes ago, JFW657 said:

  

Yeah, I figured that but I had to mess with him a little.

Oops. I mean. If you go all the way east.....

[jack]

2 hours ago, Jerry95 said:

I'm not sure I follow your logic here. Creative Village and the Amway are east of I-4 and in a few years the Under-I park will remove a major barrier. This development will stand out to traffic on I-4.

In hindsight, they should never have been issued a demolition permit until they were ready to build.

All things being equal, I would rather live east of I4 compared to west. The arena is a sports facility and does not count. Creative Village is west but is on its own island and has UCF as an anchor. 

I mean, its not like it will be cheaper to live or rent in these buildings. 

3 hours ago, spenser1058 said:

And, let’s be clear, 17 years after taking office, DPCPA still isn’t “built”. It’s 2/3 of a building. Even the architect pulled his name off the project when they did that.

And, let’s be even clearer: it was the project that was supposed to go first and had the community support. Buddy caved to the billionaires as he always has.

Barton Myers is a black caped architect who wouldn't help a community move forward on a over budget project in the midst of the worst recession of our lives. He can go pound sand.

[spenser1058]

12 minutes ago, jack said:

All things being equal, I would rather live east of I4 compared to west. The arena is a sports facility and does not count. Creative Village is west but is on its own island and has UCF as an anchor. 

I mean, its not like it will be cheaper to live or rent in these buildings. 

Barton Myers is a black caped architect who wouldn't help a community move forward on a over budget project in the midst of the worst recession of our lives. He can go pound sand.

It would have been completed before the recession if Buddy had built it first like the community wanted. Instead, he took care of the billionaires first on a project that wasn’t even part of the original proposal. 

But I know, only billionaires and developers matter, right? So, as usual in Buddyland, it’s the citizens who pound sand.

 

 

[nite owℓ]

Barton Myers once claimed (and I'm paraphrasing) that he was initially going to design a more traditional performing arts center, but then he became inspired by Florida's front porch architecture. I'm not saying he copied Mall at Millenia... but he basically copied the Mall at Millenia. And the mall's entrance still looks way better than DPAC, IMO!

[spenser1058]

1 hour ago, nite owℓ said:

Barton Myers once claimed (and I'm paraphrasing) that he was initially going to design a more traditional performing arts center, but then he became inspired by Florida's front porch architecture. I'm not saying he copied Mall at Millenia... but he basically copied the Mall at Millenia. And the mall's entrance still looks way better than DPAC, IMO!

When you compare it to someplace like Newark’s PAC (Newark!), which is from roughly the same era, it makes one weep. On the other hand, it’s better-looking than Straz in Tampa, so there’s that.

To its credit, the lighting at night makes it almost attractive, and if they work on the lawn’s landscaping, some very tall trees can take away from the harshness of the thing. Front porch, indeed.

https://www.google.com/search?q=newark+performing+arts+center+architect&rlz=1CDGOYI_enUS904US904&oq=newark+performing+arts+center+architect&aqs=chrome..69i57.17141j0j7&hl=en-US&sourceid=chrome-mobile&ie=UTF-8#imgrc=ccGk2Lj323W3mM

And.... same architect.

Then, there’s the Schermerhorn Symphony Center, which is built in a VERY traditional style to match the War Memorial Plaza in Nashville it adjoins. It was built thanks to Martha Ingram, a wealthy businesswoman, as a tribute after the untimely passing of her companion who worked with the Nashville Symphony. As a result, money really wasn’t much of an object in its construction.

https://www.google.com/search?q=schermerhorn+symphony+center&rlz=1CDGOYI_enUS904US904&oq=scher&aqs=chrome.0.69i59j69i57j0l2.2716j0j7&hl=en-US&sourceid=chrome-mobile&ie=UTF-8#trex=m_t:lcl_akp,rc_f:nav,rc_ludocids:4053383899035965594,rc_q:Nashville%20Symphony%20%7C%20Schermerhorn%20Symphony%20Center,ru_q:Nashville%20Symphony%20%7C%20Schermerhorn%20Symphony%20Center,trex_id:QEWuib

Edited July 27, 2020 by spenser1058

[spenser1058]

Although a distinctly unpopular view here, I still would have preferred DPCPA to have been placed in a park setting at Loch Haven. With room to spread out and a setting among trees that are decades old and more, it would have worked better (we learned way back in 1958 just what happens when you try to put too large a building on too small a lot with the Orange County Courthouse Annex; like an ample-size man in a Speedo, it just looks jammed in and not at all attractive).

It would also have been the crown jewel of an “arts park” unique to Orlando, which we might add, has a SunRail stop.

As is typical of this administration, there was never a discussion in the community at large about which would have worked better.

Instead, like the overnight “disappearance” of historic downtown buildings and the demolition of Tinker Field with no public input, this administration decided it knew better than the citizens it was supposed to serve.

It comes from a mayor who has always been the smartest guy in the room (he had one of the highest scores ever recorded on the Florida Bar Exam). He assumes he always know better, even when it ventures into fields in which he has no expertise.

Whereas both Mayor Bill and Buddy are introverts by nature with backgrounds in commercial law, Mayor Bill surrounded himself with both subject experts and political experts rather than ciphers like the Buddy’s DDB head and those like the head of DPCPA who had zero people skills.

[JFW657]

4 hours ago, spenser1058 said:

Although a distinctly unpopular view here, I still would have preferred DPCPA to have been placed in a park setting at Loch Haven. With room to spread out and a setting among trees that are decades old and more, it would have worked better (we learned way back in 1958 just what happens when you try to put too large a building on too small a lot with the Orange County Courthouse Annex; like an ample-size man in a Speedo, it just looks jammed in and not at all attractive).

It would also have been the crown jewel of an “arts park” unique to Orlando, which we might add, has a SunRail stop.

As is typical of this administration, there was never a discussion in the community at large about which would have worked better.

Instead, like the overnight “disappearance” of historic downtown buildings and the demolition of Tinker Field with no public input, this administration decided it knew better than the citizens it was supposed to serve.

It comes from a mayor who has always been the smartest guy in the room (he had one of the highest scores ever recorded on the Florida Bar Exam). He assumes he always know better, even when it ventures into fields in which he has no expertise.

Whereas both Mayor Bill and Buddy are introverts by nature with backgrounds in commercial law, Mayor Bill surrounded himself with both subject experts and political experts rather than ciphers like the Buddy’s DDB head and those like the head of DPCPA who had zero people skills.

You're right.... that is a distinctly unpopular view and for good reason.

Loch Haven Park might as well be in Longwood as far as downtown is concerned and to build a PAC there would've likely required tearing down some of the old existing buildings and probably some trees to boot.

Thank God we have such a dynamic, visionary,  forward thinking, forward moving Mayor here in Orlando who doesn't wussy foot around trying to please everyone while never getting anything done.

Huzzah for Hizzoner!!!!! 

 

That was fun...  

.

 

Edited July 28, 2020 by JFW657

[Jerry95]

10 hours ago, JFW657 said:

Loch Haven Park might as well be in Longwood as far as downtown is concerned

Woah now, what do you have against Longwood..?

[spenser1058]

Actually, Loch Haven is about the same distance from downtown as Midtown Atlanta is from its downtown. It’s also where many of their arts facilities are and just a quick hop on MARTA.

Atlanta seems to be doing alright with such an arrangement.

[jack]

15 hours ago, spenser1058 said:

Although a distinctly unpopular view here, I still would have preferred DPCPA to have been placed in a park setting at Loch Haven. With room to spread out and a setting among trees that are decades old and more, it would have worked better (we learned way back in 1958 just what happens when you try to put too large a building on too small a lot with the Orange County Courthouse Annex; like an ample-size man in a Speedo, it just looks jammed in and not at all attractive).

It would also have been the crown jewel of an “arts park” unique to Orlando, which we might add, has a SunRail stop.

Yes, that is unpopular! Seriously, I don't see the benefit. Loch Haven park should have never been built! 

[spenser1058]

3 hours ago, jack said:

Yes, that is unpopular! Seriously, I don't see the benefit. Loch Haven park should have never been built! 

Given that, just to name one, the Orlando Fringe Festival, one of the most popular of those events held around the world, has been infinitely more successful at Loch Haven than it ever was downtown, I disagree.

Also, from a marketing standpoint, shouldn’t you locate where your audience is and wants to be? Given the demographics (and support) of arts organizations often skews older, which atmosphere do you think they’d prefer? We actually know. Whenever given the choice among those 50 and over in studies during the Hood administration, Loch Haven won  over downtown almost every time. If we can either expand our commuter rail to weekends/holidays/events or not toss light rail aside like we did the last time it was handed to us, it becomes even more attractive as the rail is right there.

Now, if it should never have been built, neither should have Piedmont Park in Atlanta, Centennial Park in Nashville or Jackson Park in Chicago (those are three that come immediately to mind)as they came to be In order to host regional, national and world expositions.

Once again, Orlando keeps trying to be a fourth-rate Manhattan instead of building on our unique strengths as a community. A beautiful arts park in a verdant urban setting would be something so totally Orlando it could be the something special apart from the theme parks that we want so badly.

Edited July 28, 2020 by spenser1058

[uncreativeusername]

39 minutes ago, spenser1058 said:

Given that, just to name one, the Orlando Fringe Festival, one of the most popular of those events held around the world, has been infinitely more successful at Loch Haven than it ever was downtown, I disagree.

Also, from a marketing standpoint, shouldn’t you locate where your audience is and wants to be? Given the demographics (and support) of arts organizations often skews older, which atmosphere do you think they’d prefer? We actually know. Whenever given the choice among those 50 and over in studies during the Hood administration, Loch Haven won  over downtown almost every time. If we can either expand our commuter rail to weekends/holidays/events or not toss light rail aside like we did the last time it was handed to us, it becomes even more attractive as the rail is right there.

Now, if it should never have been built, neither should have Piedmont Park in Atlanta, Centennial Park in Nashville or Jackson Park in Chicago (those are three that come immediately to mind)as they came to be In order to host regional, national and world expositions.

Once again, Orlando keeps trying to be a fourth-rate Manhattan instead of building on our unique strengths as a community. A beautiful arts park in a verdant urban setting would be something so totally Orlando it could be the something special apart from the theme parks that we want so badly.

I love Loch Haven and am also very glad DPAC isn't there. The size and scope of the venue (regardless of the design) would have overwhelmed the park.  Orlando Rep, OMA & Orlando Shakes are all appropriately scaled, and OSC is separated enough that it doesn't overwhelm.  I am also glad DPAC is downtown from a planning perspective - I would rather the project spur denser development around its current location than around Loch Haven. 

Is there a degree of hubris in using DPAC as a crown jewel for City Commons/City Hall/whatever-we-call-the-whole-area?  Probably. But I'm not upset that this was the result - this is turning out to be a great civic space, in my opinion.  

 

Edited July 28, 2020 by uncreativeusername

[prahaboheme]

DPAC looks unfinished because the master plan was also to have a colonnade of buildings at its front lawn. Another unpopular view here, but I think it would look much more dynamic if these parcels are built on.