Orlando Magic Entertainment Complex [Proposed]

[Dale]

jrs2, you still a skeptic on this, or is it finally happening ?

[codypet]

6 minutes ago, jrs2 said:

I know this isn't about the Magic team, but, to be fair about this franchise here's the "couple of questionable calls" I've witnessed:

1.  They let Shaq go

2.  They allowed a hobbling Jameer to resume his starting role over Alton and the other guy who were doing great against the Lakers in The Finals.

3.  They listened to Dwight when he pressured them to fire VanGundy.  They fired VanGundy and started sucking; Dwight ended up leaving ANYWAY...

4.  They said no to Rodman

5.  They signed choir boy Grant Hill in a manner which locked him in for many injury laden years which affected their ability to go after big healthy talent.

6.  They signed a known head case (can't remember his name) within a couple years after The Finals who of course didn't pan out.

7.  There's more; but I'm at work.

And, no, I don't like them.... 

#6 Gilbert Arenas?

[jrs2]

14 minutes ago, codypet said:

#6 Gilbert Arenas?

Bingo!!!!

20 minutes ago, Dale said:

jrs2, you still a skeptic on this, or is it finally happening ?

I don't know.  I'm so jaded from BB that I can't think straight on this one.

[sunshine]

They let Hedo go and signed Vince.

Now, they have a bunch of half talented basketball players that probably would not start in other team playing for us.

[HankStrong]

6 hours ago, spenser1058 said:

We can all be on Hank's bowling team and drink lots of PBR with Andy!

I'm just saying that the rule of thumb should always be: if you CAN care less, then you should.  Bowling is just a perk.

[spenser1058]

3 minutes ago, HankStrong said:

I'm just saying that the rule of thumb should always be: if you CAN care less, then you should.  Bowling is just a perk.

[Xander]

20 hours ago, Dale said:

Obviously, I’ve missed a lot since I’ve been away. I thought the Orlando Pride had a fanatical following.

Sadly, no. The men's team is the one with the fanatical following. If the Pride have that type of following, they fail to show up during home games, because the stadium sits 9/10ths empty during every single home game.

[Dale]

Speaking of bowling, remember the ‘vertical bowling alley’ they proposed for a highrise downtown pre-recession ?

[AndyPok1]

@jrs2 to be clear. I was referring solely to the post-Dwight rebuild.

Also, not sure what your Grant Hill point is.  Virtually any team in the league would have given him a Max contract in 2000. He was a top 10 player in the league. He (and the Magic) was just super unlucky with injuries. And that's part of the reason the max contracts are only 4 years instead of 7 now.  Which of course has had the reverse effect of when you have a star you want to keep that doesn't want to be here, you have a much shorter window of opportunity.

[Uncommon]

18 hours ago, jrs2 said:

I know this isn't about the Magic team, but, to be fair about this franchise here's the "couple of questionable calls" I've witnessed:

1.  They let Shaq go

2.  They allowed a hobbling Jameer to resume his starting role over Alton and the other guy who were doing great against the Lakers in The Finals.

3.  They listened to Dwight when he pressured them to fire VanGundy.  They fired VanGundy and started sucking; Dwight ended up leaving ANYWAY...

4.  They said no to Rodman

5.  They signed choir boy Grant Hill in a manner which locked him in for many injury laden years which affected their ability to go after big healthy talent.

6.  They signed a known head case (can't remember his name) within a couple years after The Finals who of course didn't pan out.

7.  There's more; but I'm at work.

And, no, I don't like them.... 

# 1, 2, and 3- fair enough, although Van Grundy was always a little overrated.  Sure his offense predicated on inside-out and 3 point shooting was way ahead of its time, but the players MADE that team. Without Dwight, none of it would have worked. Van Gundy’s stints in Miami and Detroit prove he is basically a mediocre coach.

#4- I keep up with the Magic pretty religiously and I don’t remember this. Even so, the Magic generally pride themselves on high-character guys and avoid obvious locker room distractions. Rodman is one of the most volatile guys in NBA history. I’m glad we said no to him.

#5- Grant Hill was not a bad decision at all. Greg Oden was not a bad decision either. Injuries suck, but you can’t plan for them or predict them or turn them off like 2K. No way this should be in the “questionable” category.

#6- They didn’t sign him. I believe they actually traded for Gilbert Arenas in a 3-team deal with Washington and Phoenix. It wasn’t a good move but the Magic were massively underachieving that season and desperately needed a spark. Hedo and Vince both were having awful seasons, so the move was made to get Gilbert, who was averaging almost 20 points a game in Washington. It didn’t pan out, but the next season the Magic got rid of him with no repercussion. FYI, Vince and Hedo also began their steep decline during this time. So it was a lose-lose either way.

[AmIReal]

2 hours ago, Uncommon said:

It didn’t pan out, but the next season the Magic got rid of him with no repercussion.

The Magic actually did well that season after trading  Rashard for Arenas, but went on to lose to the Hawks in the 1st round. There were consequences to trading for him though. He was still under a long term contract (another 4 years), but the Magic no longer wanted him. They used the new amnesty clause to waive him, but his salary of roughly 20 million/ year stayed on their books for another 4 years thereby preventing them from signing other free agents or paying their own free agents.

[HankStrong]

Admittedly, I'm not Magic fan, but as an outside observer they seem to have a repetitive problem.

 

1. Shaq
2. T-Mac
3. Dwight

Get dominant big man who changes team.  Lose big man.  Fail.  Lather.  Rinse.  Repeat.

[jrs2]

18 hours ago, AndyPok1 said:

@jrs2 to be clear. I was referring solely to the post-Dwight rebuild.

Also, not sure what your Grant Hill point is.  Virtually any team in the league would have given him a Max contract in 2000. He was a top 10 player in the league. He (and the Magic) was just super unlucky with injuries. And that's part of the reason the max contracts are only 4 years instead of 7 now.  Which of course has had the reverse effect of when you have a star you want to keep that doesn't want to be here, you have a much shorter window of opportunity.

Seriously? So then what you are saying is that the Magic beat out other major franchises that were beating down the doors of The Palace at Auburn Hills to get Grant Hill, right?

The Magic got him knowing he had an ankle injury from the year before (Detroit), that got worse, affected him in the Playoffs, and then also prevented him from playing in the Olympics because it got worse yet.  At this point, Detroit was looking to dump him and the Magic decided to take it's sloppy seconds (as in, player, ala health and effectiveness,  already used up, and best years behind him).

I remember this vividly.  It was a bad gamble and everybody knew it.

[spenser1058]

5 minutes ago, jrs2 said:

Seriously? So then what you are saying is that the Magic beat out other major franchises that were beating down the doors of The Palace at Auburn Hills to get Grant Hill, right?

The Magic got him knowing he had an ankle injury from the year before (Detroit), that got worse, affected him in the Playoffs, and then also prevented him from playing in the Olympics because it got worse yet.  At this point, Detroit was looking to dump him and the Magic decided to take it's sloppy seconds (as in, player, ala health and effectiveness,  already used up, and best years behind him).

I remember this vividly.  It was a bad gamble and everybody knew it.

Not unlike hiring Rob Hennigan as GM...maybe he was good at selling Amway or something.

 

 

 

Edited January 17, 2019 by spenser1058

[AmIReal]

14 hours ago, jrs2 said:

Seriously? So then what you are saying is that the Magic beat out other major franchises that were beating down the doors of The Palace at Auburn Hills to get Grant Hill, right?

The Magic got him knowing he had an ankle injury from the year before (Detroit), that got worse, affected him in the Playoffs, and then also prevented him from playing in the Olympics because it got worse yet.  At this point, Detroit was looking to dump him and the Magic decided to take it's sloppy seconds (as in, player, ala health and effectiveness,  already used up, and best years behind him).

I remember this vividly.  It was a bad gamble and everybody knew it.

Not at all how I remember it. Go back and read the sports news at the time and the Magic were praised for pulling off the signings of Hill and McGrady. 29 other teams would have done the same thing.

[jrs2]

7 hours ago, AmIReal said:

Not at all how I remember it. Go back and read the sports news at the time and the Magic were praised for pulling off the signings of Hill and McGrady. 29 other teams would have done the same thing.

Orlando traded with the Pistons and  got Grant Hill for Chucky Atkins and Ben Wallace. 

Articles will praise the deal b/c he was a 5-time All-Star.  But, none of them talk about his injuries.  They are assuming a healthy player, which is my point.  If he was healthy, Detroit wouldn't have dumped him.  Who deals for him?  Not the other 29 franchises, rather, the Orlando Magic.  True to form.

[Dale]

Alex Martins just pulled into my driveway. He’s getting out of his car and looks like he’s carrying a Manila envelope. What could this mean ?

[Uncommon]

43 minutes ago, jrs2 said:

Orlando traded with the Pistons and  got Grant Hill for Chucky Atkins and Ben Wallace. 

Articles will praise the deal b/c he was a 5-time All-Star.  But, none of them talk about his injuries.  They are assuming a healthy player, which is my point.  If he was healthy, Detroit wouldn't have dumped him.  Who deals for him?  Not the other 29 franchises, rather, the Orlando Magic.  True to form.

Not true. Detroit didn’t dump him at all. Grant Hill was an unrestricted free agent and was not going to re-sign with Detroit. Back then, sign-and-trades were pretty easy under the CBA, so the Magic facilitated the Ben Wallace-Hill deal, which saved Orlando a couple million dollars in the transaction. But make no mistake, Hill was highly sought after. Literally NO ONE could’ve predicted his demise due to injury. Yes, he had an ankle injury toward the end of his Pistons tenure but in no way did it indicate it was going to practically be a career-ender.

[AndyPok1]

As @Uncommon said, it was a sign-and-trade to get a higher salary.  It still happens today, but the current CBA makes it much more restrictive.  Under your logic, the Cavs dumped Lebron James to Miami in 2010 for Miami's 2013 and 2015 first round picks, the 2012 New Orleans second round pick, and a second round pick from Oklahoma City.

[jrs2]

24 minutes ago, Uncommon said:

Not true. Detroit didn’t dump him at all. Grant Hill was an unrestricted free agent and was not going to re-sign with Detroit. Back then, sign-and-trades were pretty easy under the CBA, so the Magic facilitated the Ben Wallace-Hill deal, which saved Orlando a couple million dollars in the transaction. But make no mistake, Hill was highly sought after. Literally NO ONE could’ve predicted his demise due to injury. Yes, he had an ankle injury toward the end of his Pistons tenure but in no way did it indicate it was going to practically be a career-ender.

Fair enough, free agency. But, Orlando went after a player who was hobbling his final year at Detroit which cost him playing time in the Playoffs and kept him out of the Olympics. 

Was it a career ender in 2000?  Nobody knew for sure in 2000.  Why chance it?

Was it an injury that would be recurring after 2000 but not a career ender?  There's a very good chance based on it's severity in 2000.  Why chance it?

Was it an injury that would be recurring after 2000 but eventually become a career ender more or less?  There's a very good chance.  Why chance it?

It saved them "a couple million dollars."  So that's why they did it.  And they used his name to justify it, trading two healthy bodies for a hobbling choir boy.  Sound familiar?  Alston and Courtney Lee get benched in favor an injured Jameer Nelson in the Finals several years later.  Thank you.

Again, regardless of the references to him being sought after, or how sports articles lauded the deal, the fact is, that at that time (not 5 years later) everyone that I know was questioning what the hec they were thinking, because in his then present state, he was used laundry.

12 minutes ago, AndyPok1 said:

As @Uncommon said, it was a sign-and-trade to get a higher salary.  It still happens today, but the current CBA makes it much more restrictive.  Under your logic, the Cavs dumped Lebron James to Miami in 2010 for Miami's 2013 and 2015 first round picks, the 2012 New Orleans second round pick, and a second round pick from Oklahoma City.

Not at all.  Money aside, it's about trading for an injured player which is not a smart thing to do.

[spenser1058]

To keep our OCD folks happy, I just brought forward the Orlando Magic thread in the Coffee House for team talk not related to the entertainment complex.

[Uncommon]

1 hour ago, jrs2 said:

Fair enough, free agency. But, Orlando went after a player who was hobbling his final year at Detroit which cost him playing time in the Playoffs and kept him out of the Olympics. 

Was it a career ender in 2000?  Nobody knew for sure in 2000.  Why chance it?

Was it an injury that would be recurring after 2000 but not a career ender?  There's a very good chance based on it's severity in 2000.  Why chance it?

Was it an injury that would be recurring after 2000 but eventually become a career ender more or less?  There's a very good chance.  Why chance it?

It saved them "a couple million dollars."  So that's why they did it.  And they used his name to justify it, trading two healthy bodies for a hobbling choir boy.  Sound familiar?  Alston and Courtney Lee get benched in favor an injured Jameer Nelson in the Finals several years later.  Thank you.

Again, regardless of the references to him being sought after, or how sports articles lauded the deal, the fact is, that at that time (not 5 years later) everyone that I know was questioning what the hec they were thinking, because in his then present state, he was used laundry.

Not at all.  Money aside, it's about trading for an injured player which is not a smart thing to do.

@spenser1058 last comment before all conversation is moved to the other thread if needed. This is my last response on the topic either way.

@jrs2 you must not remember that season. Hill had near-MVP numbers. He was basically LeBron-lite. He had an ankle injury to end his season. Tell me, if LeBron missed the rest of the season with an ankle injury, do you honestly think every team wouldn’t still be lining up to sign him in the offseason? That’s essentially what happened with Hill. He had a half dozen teams after him, with sports doctors — some of them in the top 1% of their field, much smarter than you or I or anyone with 20/20 hindsight — that signed off on acquiring him. He CHOSE the Magic. So did Tracy McGrady. So did Tim Duncan, before he changed did mind last second (but that’s another story). 

You can spin this to fit your agenda anyhow you see fit but 100% of the basketball world applauded Orlando’s offseason acquisition of Grant Hill. If you’re alleging you somehow saw all of this coming, I encourage you to invest in the stock market with extreme haste.

[AmIReal]

14 hours ago, AmIReal said:

29 other teams would have done the same thing.

Yes, I'm quoting myself. EVERY OTHER TEAM WANTED GRANT HILL.  Orlando was in perfect financial position to make a great offer and Hill wanted to be here (is in fact still here and his kid is at Lake Highland).

Atkins and Wallace were undrafted toss-ins who actually turned out to be good (in the case of Wallace, really good). Regardless, that was unforeseeable at the time. Here is a pretty good rundown to refresh your memory http://nbatrades.tumblr.com/post/30885980193/detroit-pistons-sign-trade-grant-hill-to-orlando 

On the subject of the Magic Entertainment Complex. I'm in favor of it though it could be taller. I think a bowling alley would be nice.

 

 

[jgardnerucf]

Can everyone just shut up about thinking they're a slapsticking Weisbrod, and thank Grant's wife Tamia for becoming the very first grammy winner for electronic music ever. Industry established. AND in the same damn community with other grammists, Phillips Landing. And the Magicians ruined my night; and AG is out sat night against Giannas. Sheesh.                      ....There's a stranger in my house....

[jrs2]

^^

Didn't intend to derail this thread and devolve it to be about BB...lot's of good points made...