Proposed 400 room Hotel at Devos Place

[crinzema]

Just now, Prankster said:

But are you ok with businesses getting tax breaks or other advantages at the expense of other honest business owners?  

Absolutely not! Corporate Welfare makes zero sense. Why does a level playing field seem so controversial?  Speaking metaphorically, I want "farm to table" developments. The more artificial a development is, meaning the more strings it requires to get off the ground, the more I hate it. You can play the puppet show for a while, but it won't last.

 

[GRDadof3]

39 minutes ago, crinzema said:

Absolutely not! Corporate Welfare makes zero sense. Why does a level playing field seem so controversial?  Speaking metaphorically, I want "farm to table" developments. The more artificial a development is, meaning the more strings it requires to get off the ground, the more I hate it. You can play the puppet show for a while, but it won't last.

 

If you own a business downtown crinzema, then you are benefiting from literally $hundreds of millions in public investment. You're welcome. In fact, I can provide you with data that shows a direct correlation between public investments and increased private investments.  Without public investment downtown GR it'd just be you and the pigeons. Purely capitalistic pigeons I'm sure. 

As someone who is a partner in a business and who works for several other business clients, I'd be a fool to think that we got to where we are simply on our capitalistic visions alone. I mean c'mon. 

Edit: I'm guessing your business isn't even located downtown... 

[crinzema]

20 minutes ago, GRDadof3 said:

If you own a business downtown crinzema, then you are benefiting from literally $hundreds of millions in public investment. You're welcome. In fact, I can provide you with data that shows a direct correlation between public investments and increased private investments.  Without public investment downtown GR it'd just be you and the pigeons. Purely capitalistic pigeons I'm sure. 

As someone who is a partner in a business and who works for several other business clients, I'd be a fool to think that we got to where we are simply on our capitalistic visions alone. I mean c'mon. 

Edit: I'm guessing your business isn't even located downtown... 

3

This issue is quickly becoming a non-issue. The left, the right, are all agreeing that tax incentives for businesses and developments are bad. This is going to be a practice of the past. Everyone has an Amazon Headquarter aftertaste in their mouths. I'm glad the public narrative is turning negative towards these sorts of practices.  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8bl19RoR7lc 

 

[ProtoSapien]

On 12/7/2018 at 6:56 PM, GRLaker said:

If this moves forward, it will be a skyline changing development. Here’s to hoping it stays at 26 stories.

It will be time to retake the city's glamour shot from further upriver since the current standard photo opp is always the Amway, the JW and the Courtyard/Plaza Apartments.

[GRLaker]

16 hours ago, GRDadof3 said:

In addition, show me a privately owned hotel downtown built recently or under construction that hasn't taken public tax credits or subsidies...  Kind of hard to complain about a publicly financed hotel enjoying handouts when you're sucking off the trough too (ahem Orion). 

In addition, convention business is only PART of the puzzle for downtown hotels. Much of the stays are for business travelers not attending a convention or conference here (says so in all of the articles).  So being connected to the convention center is really only a benefit if you're going to a convention there. 

In addition, if the current ownership/management of the Amway hotels is not worried about this hotel, why would the developers of other downtown hotels be worried about it? In fact, Buekemas who are doing the Embassy Suites have expressed an interest in doing a public/private partnership on this hotel. 

The tough sell really isn't going to be crinzema :), it's going to be the county, which has traditionally not liked things that benefited downtown (like the DDA) that affects them financially. I don't think parking is going to be an issue either, at all. 

Since I'm in support of this and they're going to look to hire an architect to develop more concrete plans/renderings, I'm going to start posting what I'd like to see (especially at ground level). 

 

The bolded was my thought as well. If the DeVos family is not coming out against this as the chief competitors, then the whole argument against it is a non-issue. 

[MJLO]

4 minutes ago, GRLaker said:

The bolded was my thought as well. If the DeVos family is not coming out against this as the chief competitors, then the whole argument against it is a non-issue. 

To be fair their hotel management arm will likely be the third party firm that operates it.   They have an interest in every property from the post office to the Arena. 

Is it possible that part of their announcement for the 5/3rd building could include relocating the Windquest offices from the building it's in?  I could see that building being incorporated into some kind of hotel plan.  Especially given that it would share a wall with whatever structure would be built for the hotel. 

[GRDadof3]

13 hours ago, crinzema said:

This issue is quickly becoming a non-issue. The left, the right, are all agreeing that tax incentives for businesses and developments are bad. This is going to be a practice of the past. Everyone has an Amazon Headquarter aftertaste in their mouths. I'm glad the public narrative is turning negative towards these sorts of practices.  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8bl19RoR7lc 

 

I'm not against tax incentives for businesses. It really depends on what they are. But businesses must also recognize that their success greatly hinges on the government where they operate that business. If you want to live in some Central American style slum city be my guest. 

Moving on.

[x99]

20 hours ago, crinzema said:

This issue is quickly becoming a non-issue. The left, the right, are all agreeing that tax incentives for businesses and developments are bad. This is going to be a practice of the past. Everyone has an Amazon Headquarter aftertaste in their mouths. I'm glad the public narrative is turning negative towards these sorts of practices.  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8bl19RoR7lc 

 

Charts like the one you posted earlier demonstrate why this is a horrible practice.  Subsidizing this stuff just plasters over deeper structural problems that further damage non-subsidized operators.  If they want to do a ground lease for a dollar in order to collect the tax revenues, fine--they own the dirt.  But paying to build the hotel is just foolish, when there have been plenty of hotels built by market operators.  Amazon basically manage to get corporate Section 8 for itself.  Taxpayer funded hotels, sports stadiums, etc., are no less awful.  

Edited December 10, 2018 by x99

[GRDadof3]

4 hours ago, x99 said:

Charts like the one you posted earlier demonstrate why this is a horrible practice.  Subsidizing this stuff just plasters over deeper structural problems that further damage non-subsidized operators.  If they want to do a ground lease for a dollar in order to collect the tax revenues, fine--they own the dirt.  But paying to build the hotel is just foolish, when there have been plenty of hotels built by market operators.  Amazon basically manage to get corporate Section 8 for itself.  Taxpayer funded hotels, sports stadiums, etc., are no less awful.  

This wouldn't be a private operator getting a hotel for free. You guys do realize this right? Whoever is the private operator would have to pay a lease of some sort and would have to make a profit themselves. The only difference would be the structure would be paid for. Kind of like a manufacturer building a plant next to the $465 Million M-6 highway. They may use the highway every day to ship parts, but it was paid for by the government in the form of taxation. 

Same with Hyatt Place at the Warner Tower. As far as I know, Orion was the developer and Hyatt is just a "tenant." Just like Warner is a tenant in the office tower. Warner and Hyatt are not being given any subsidies. Orion certainly was though...

Just like Devos Place was funded by the CAA (taxpayer dollars) and the conventions pay to hold shows there.

I'd also add that I expect that a lot of the conventions here are on long-term contracts, but close to the expiration dates, Cobo/Detroit is going to offer their space for free to take them away, hoping to make it up on hotel room stays and retail spending. Just you watch. Detroit has a new "attitude" that ain't pretty. 

I do agree though that sports stadiums are a completely different animal (and much more costly). 

[joeDowntown]

Agreed. I don’t see how it different than Orion building for a tenant, Hinman building for a tenant. And if the company operating the hotel is leasing it, charging market rate for hotel rooms, etc. it seems like the CAA is doing their job, keeping the convention center viable for current conventioneers, and upgrading facilities to attract new conventions. They’re not asking to pay for this using tax dollars (which GRDad pointed out, most private developments get plenty of incentives). I just don’t see an issue with this. 

Joe

[crinzema]

Econ 101: The public will carry the debt. This is a liability placed onto the tax base of Grand Rapids and Kent County. No one within the tax base will be utilizing the services of this hotel. Extensive studies within the Hotel Industry, generated by our nations finest institutions, show that there is a notable and negative economic disturbance with the introduction of Publically Owned Hotels. This is not considered infrastructure.  A single, "CHOSEN" corporation will "make a profit for* themselves", as stated by GRDadof3. There is no market failure that needs to be addressed here. I don't care if a traveler's pillow will be 200ft closer to the convention floor. I don't think this is a problem that requires the public to finance 100 million dollars to solve the pillow problems of the 1%. This is cronyism to high heaven. I'm done ranting.

Edited December 11, 2018 by crinzema

[cutlervillegr]

1 hour ago, crinzema said:

Econ 101: The public will carry the debt. This is a liability placed onto the tax base of Grand Rapids and Kent County. No one within the tax base will be utilizing the services of this hotel. Extensive studies within the Hotel Industry, generated by our nations finest institutions, show that there is a notable and negative economic disturbance with the introduction of Publically Owned Hotels. This is not considered infrastructure.  A single, "CHOSEN" corporation will "make a profit for* themselves", as stated by GRDadof3. There is no market failure that needs to be addressed here. I don't care if a traveler's pillow will be 200ft closer to the convention floor. I don't think this is a problem that requires the public to finance 100 million dollars to solve the pillow problems of the 1%. This is cronyism to high heaven. I'm done ranting.

If the public will carry the debt, then the city/county should be required to have the public vote for a millage specifically for this project -- just like occurs for taxes that pay for arenas/stadiums.

I would enjoy voting no for additional taxes for a hotel.

[GRDadof3]

45 minutes ago, cutlervillegr said:

If the public will carry the debt, then the city/county should be required to have the public vote for a millage specifically for this project -- just like occurs for taxes that pay for arenas/stadiums.

I would enjoy voting no for additional taxes for a hotel.

Debt in the form of bonds or some other financial instrument, not debt in the form of higher taxes. I will also add that Kent County receives a "lodging excise tax" from people who stay at the hotels in the county. Also people staying here pay sales tax. They also pump a lot of money into local restaurants and breweries. 

I'm not done ranting, I can keep going. #energizerbunny

[arcturus]

They better hurry up else the next recession will put this on the back burner for at least 5 years.    It's looming.

[crinzema]

Someone ask me how I'm going to stop this project?.................. I love social media :-)

 

 

[ZAP!]

49 minutes ago, crinzema said:

Someone ask me how I'm going to stop this project?.................. I love social media :-)

 

 

 

[GRDadof3]

6 hours ago, ZAP! said:

 

  Yeah, that's like a social media bunker buster.  This project is DOA with that video. 

Are you going to re-do the video once a new rendering comes out crinzema?   Please. 

[GRLaker]

7 hours ago, crinzema said:

Someone ask me how I'm going to stop this project?.................. I love social media :-)

 

 

A. Bliss won't be voted out of office. She will be term limited.

B. A YouTube video with misspelled words, improper grammar, and the utilization of a movie about an inefficient and inadequate private enterprise is not going to be what puts an end to this project. 

I get it. You're an ideologue. But you're wasting your time and energy on a non-issue. GRDadof3 has poked plenty of holes in your logic. This hotel is not the boogeyman for free enterprise that you make it out to be. Grand Rapids is not Erie, PA. It is not Detroit, Overland Park, Schaumburg, etc. Public-private partnerships have been an integral piece to this city's resurgence. To deny that is foolish. Even the DeVos', VanAndels, and Meijers (the kings of West Michigan capitalism) would agree.

9 hours ago, arcturus said:

They better hurry up else the next recession will put this on the back burner for at least 5 years.    It's looming.

Right. If anything stops this project, it will be the coming recession. Here's to hoping Grand Rapids has made itself into the "recession-proof" city that it has been touted to be as of late.

[GRDadof3]

8 minutes ago, GRLaker said:

A. Bliss won't be voted out of office. She will be term limited.

B. A YouTube video with misspelled words, improper grammar, and the utilization of a movie about an inefficient and inadequate private enterprise is not going to be what puts an end to this project. 

I get it. You're an ideologue. But you're wasting your time and energy on a non-issue. GRDadof3 has poked plenty of holes in your logic. This hotel is not the boogeyman for free enterprise that you make it out to be. Grand Rapids is not Erie, PA. It is not Detroit, Overland Park, Schaumburg, etc. Public-private partnerships have been an integral piece to this city's resurgence. To deny that is foolish. Even the DeVos', VanAndels, and Meijers (the kings of West Michigan capitalism) would agree.

Right. If anything stops this project, it will be the coming recession. Here's to hoping Grand Rapids has made itself into the "recession-proof" city that it has been touted to be as of late.

I think the next recession, when it comes (because we are due for one) will be short-lived. Most recessions since the 1950's, and there have been 10 of them, have been 6 to 10 months long on average. This project might actually overlap a recession if they're able to start construction in 2020. 

And yeah why is Rosalynn Bliss mentioned in the video? I didn't get that far when I watched it before. She hasn't mentioned the project or even talked about it. She doesn't sit on the CAA board, or really have anything to do with the CAA. Wow. 

[discgrab21]

Crinzema, did that study account for existing occupancy rates in those markets?  I am not being snarky, I just don't have the time or interest to read that study in detail, but I think that is an important question and might distinguish GR from the other markets that were scrutinized.  I would also be interested in seeing whether the convention situations were similar in that an additional hotel was needed to secure more and larger conventions.  Again, having not read that study, it just feels like it is not apples to apples. 

On the other hand, if there are not factors that make Grand Rapids unique and more likely to succeed in "raising all boats", then those findings should give everybody pause. 

[joeDowntown]

I disagree with @crinzema on this project being a bad deal / bad idea, but I give credit for use of the Office Space printer scene. Well played.

Joe

[GRDadof3]

4 hours ago, joeDowntown said:

I disagree with @crinzema on this project being a bad deal / bad idea, but I give credit for use of the Office Space printer scene. Well played.

Joe

Totally. I'll also say I'm not supporting this project "at all costs." If it doesn't make sense it doesn't make sense. Proof will be in the pudding. 

[thebeerqueer]

4 hours ago, GRLaker said:

 

B. A YouTube video with misspelled words, improper grammar, and the utilization of a movie about an inefficient and inadequate private enterprise is not going to be what puts an end to this project. 

 

This video smacks of GRIID. 

[kwl]

RevPAR = Revenue per Available Room. 

How does this correlate with "statistically significant negative impact on the local economy" 

More hotels (regardless if public or private owned) would increase supply and competition which would expect to add downward pressure on prices. 

When did these mundane MLive style arguments make their way onto UP?

[x99]

1 hour ago, kwl said:

More hotels (regardless if public or private owned) would increase supply and competition which would expect to add downward pressure on prices. 

The argument, which I'm not sure I but, is that more hotels will cause more conventions to happen, which will increase hotel demand, and increase prices.   If someone has a study showing that actually works, I'm all ears.  If someone comes up with a strong tenant who will pay market rent for a 20 year lease for a hotel to be funded by the CAA, I'd be happy to hear about it.  Of course, if that's the case, I would find it rather difficult to understand why someone else wouldn't just build the thing in the first place.