Proposed 400 room Hotel at Devos Place

[Kinkema]

https://www.mlive.com/news/grand-rapids/2018/12/plans-progress-for-publicly-financed-convention-hotel-in-grand-rapids.html

Happy to see this project is still moving forward

On 11/28/2018 at 12:36 PM, joeDowntown said:

I hate bumping threads with no new news, but... I'm curious. I know that they worked on a Feasibility study and were working with a consultant. Does anyone know if they are still pursuing the idea of a 24 story hotel? Haven't heard a peep on over a year. 

I'm sure that they're watching the number of hotels coming online in the next year, but this is also a longer-term, strategic spot for a convention center hotel. So it seems like they'd still be working through the process.

Joe

 

Edited December 7, 2018 by Kinkema

[GRDadof3]

1 hour ago, Kinkema said:

https://www.mlive.com/news/grand-rapids/2018/12/plans-progress-for-publicly-financed-convention-hotel-in-grand-rapids.html

Happy to see this project is still moving forward

 

Hooray!!!   24 stories, I can't even remember what a building that tall looks like.   Maybe we will actually see RDV do something of height across the street.

This image was from earlier in the thread, showing the hotel from the Northwest. 

[joeDowntown]

It’s like they heard my requests.  Glad it’s still moving along. Hate that parking is a concern, though I wonder how many parking spots are empty each day in the DeVos lot [waits for GRDad to pull up his fancy spreadsheet]. 

I like that it has additional meeting space to enhance the convention center. 

Joe

[Guest]

Please don't get scaled back, please don't get scaled back, please don't get scaled back....

[GRLaker]

If this moves forward, it will be a skyline changing development. Here’s to hoping it stays at 26 stories.

[GRDadof3]

2 hours ago, joeDowntown said:

It’s like they heard my requests.  Glad it’s still moving along. Hate that parking is a concern, though I wonder how many parking spots are empty each day in the DeVos lot [waits for GRDad to pull up his fancy spreadsheet]. 

I like that it has additional meeting space to enhance the convention center. 

Joe

Haha well without even getting it out, 400 rooms x about 70% avg occupancy means they'll need about 280 spaces very close by. There are 800 under the convention center and 900 something under Calder Plaza. Over the 2 or 3 years it takes to build, slowly phase out the monthly parkers (which are more than half the users) in those ramps to 1 or 2 new ramps elsewhere in the city. Boom solved. 

[crinzema]

Publically financed hotel? Hold up....Hold up....Hold up... While I might not be that crazy libertarian I use to be, I am not even slightly on aboard with this. What in the world is happening here! CAA mission creep. Of course this hurts real hotels that are forced to survive on profit, when a closer hotel to the convention center could be run at a lose. I will see to it that this does not get built. I’m as big a fan as any for more construction downtown, but If only we could learn from histories examples... https://youtu.be/shI5oOTMkMk

[MJLO]

15 hours ago, Floyd_Z said:

Please don't get scaled back, please don't get scaled back, please don't get scaled back....

Something smaller would make zero sense on that location, adding 6-8 stories on top of that section of the convention center would be way to expensive to justify the cost.  If the option is too scale it back it will likely never get built.

7 hours ago, crinzema said:

Publically financed hotel? Hold up....Hold up....Hold up... While I might not be that crazy libertarian I use to be, I am not even slightly on aboard with this. What in the world is happening here! CAA mission creep. Of course this hurts real hotels that are forced to survive on profit, when a closer hotel to the convention center could be run at a lose. I will see to it that this does not get built. I’m as big a fan as any for more construction downtown, but If only we could learn from histories examples... https://youtu.be/shI5oOTMkMk

I understand your sentiments here, though I've seen this done in other cities and it worked fine in conjunction with the other hotels in the market(Phoenix built a GIGANTIC Sheraton when I lived there).   I think this is somewhat of a chicken and egg issue for the CAA.  As stated in the article they are open to working with a private developer, but none of them appear ready to take the risk right now.  The number of hotels rooms coming online in the city will support existing conventions.  They still aren't enough to track the major conventions the area is looking for.  GR still cannot compete with slightly larger cities for similar conventions as it's only now catching up to where it should be.   The thought process seems to be adding these additional rooms will put the area near or at the hotel capacity needed for attracting these bigger events.  If that is true, and this hotel allows them to attract these events, it will raise the bar for the entire market, not take away business from the private hotels being built. 

If they end up building this I'm curious to see what brand they go with.  We are all aware of the lack of a flagship brand in Grand Rapids, though both the Amway and JW are an echelon above flagship brands so downtown doesn't lack for quality.   Based on location this will undoubtedly be managed by Amway Hotel Corp.  It also seems plausible that this would be a flagship to higher end brand as well.  I don't think it would make sense to put another Hilton Garden type property in such a high profile location.   If they were smart they'd target Westin, maybe Sheraton.   Currently the only Intercontinental brand available downtown is the Holiday Inn.   Any traveling hotel princess like myself would be annoyed at that option if I'm an IHG loyalty member.  A Westin would mean that all major hotel groups would be represented with multiple options for convention traffic.   Since Sheraton(SPG) was absorbed by Marriott Brands they have options, but longtime Sheraton members don't have familiar brands either.    It will be interesting to see what happens. 

[GRDadof3]

16 minutes ago, MJLO said:

Something smaller would make zero sense on that location, adding 6-8 stories on top of that section of the convention center would way to expensive to justify the cost.  If the option is too scale it back it would likely just get cancelled.

I understand your sentiments here, though I've seen this done in other cities and it worked fine in conjunction with the other hotels in the market(Phoenix built a GIGANTIC Sheraton when I lived there).   I think this is somewhat of a chicken and egg issue for the CAA.  As stated in the article they are open to working with a private developer, but none of them appear ready to take the risk right now.  The number of hotels rooms coming online in the city will support existing conventions.  They still aren't enough to track the major conventions the area is looking for.  GR still cannot compete with slightly larger cities for similar conventions as it's only now catching up to where it should be.   The thought process seems to be adding these additional rooms will put the area near or at the hotel capacity needed for attracting these bigger events.  If that is true, and this hotel allows them to attract these events, it will raise the bar for the entire market, not take away business from the private hotels being built. 

If they end up building this I'm curious to see what brand they go with.  We are all aware of the lack of a flagship brand in Grand Rapids, though both the Amway and JW are an echelon above flagship brands so downtown doesn't lack for quality.   Based on location this will undoubtedly be managed by Amway Hotel Corp.  It also seems plausible that this would be a flagship to higher end brand as well.  I don't think it would make sense to put another Hilton Garden type property in such a high profile location.   If they were smart they'd target Westin, maybe Sheraton.   Currently the only Intercontinental brand available downtown is the Holiday Inn.   Any traveling hotel princess like myself would be annoyed at that option if I'm an IHG loyalty member.  A Westin would mean that all major hotel groups would be represented with multiple options for convention traffic.   Since Sheraton(SPG) was absorbed by Marriott Brands they have options, but longtime Sheraton members don't have familiar brands either.    It will be interesting to see what happens. 

I would agree about the size. The only reason to build this is for the number of rooms (400) and additional conference space (40,000 sf).  Those numbers have been bandied about for years as a specific need to rope in more conventions, in addition to physically expanding the convention center somehow. Let's not also forget that many cities have new convention centers and/or are expanding their convention centers. The CAA and ExperienceGR have to constantly worry about competing, and KEEPING the momentum they have.

I understand where CAA is coming from that financing this hotel through the city and county would bring the costs down tremendously. And it's not like the city or county would actually "pay" for the building with tax dollars. I do however see it being a tough sell with the county. Although the recent elections has mixed up the makeup of the county board a bit. 

 Back to parking:

Government Center ramp (Calder Plaza):  921 spaces...............611 spaces allocated for monthly permits.............310 allocated for visitor spaces.......as of the GRForward Plan 2015: 202 monthly cards available

Devos Place: 685 spaces.............the report does not list how many are available for monthly permits but their PEAK occupancy average is 490 cars, not even close to being filled up.

By my rough math there's capacity in those two ramps for about 400 spaces, for additional visitors/hotel guests.

There is a parking issue downtown but I think people rush to the judgment that there's "no parking available" downtown. 

 

 

 

[GRDadof3]

6 hours ago, crinzema said:

Publically financed hotel? Hold up....Hold up....Hold up... While I might not be that crazy libertarian I use to be, I am not even slightly on aboard with this. What in the world is happening here! CAA mission creep. Of course this hurts real hotels that are forced to survive on profit, when a closer hotel to the convention center could be run at a lose. I will see to it that this does not get built. I’m as big a fan as any for more construction downtown, but If only we could learn from histories examples... https://youtu.be/shI5oOTMkMk

I don't know. That video gives an example of a city that was losing population (lost half its population) and started getting desperate with some crazy ideas, and actually spending Harrisburg's budget on museum artifacts (?). Plus the examples they give of really bad city management? GR doesn't have any of that going on to my knowledge. I would agree if Flint came to the State and said the wanted to build a $150 Million hotel to save its downtown, I'd highly object. Or if Detroit wanted $tens of Millions from the State to build a new arena for the Red Wings, I'd be pissed (and I was). 

This idea is not the same. 

[Prankster]

Don’t forget that one of the main purposes of this is to offer a large block of rooms convenient to the convention center.

When outside groups book conventions, they are always looking for a “convention hotel” to book a large group of rooms. It doesn’t mean that all of the attendants will stay in that hotel, a lot of the overflow will end up in neighboring properties. 

[GRLaker]

10 hours ago, crinzema said:

Publically financed hotel? Hold up....Hold up....Hold up... While I might not be that crazy libertarian I use to be, I am not even slightly on aboard with this. What in the world is happening here! CAA mission creep. Of course this hurts real hotels that are forced to survive on profit, when a closer hotel to the convention center could be run at a lose. I will see to it that this does not get built. I’m as big a fan as any for more construction downtown, but If only we could learn from histories examples... https://youtu.be/shI5oOTMkMk

How do you plan on doing that?

[GRDadof3]

2 hours ago, Prankster said:

Don’t forget that one of the main purposes of this is to offer a large block of rooms convenient to the convention center.

When outside groups book conventions, they are always looking for a “convention hotel” to book a large group of rooms. It doesn’t mean that all of the attendants will stay in that hotel, a lot of the overflow will end up in neighboring properties. 

And 400 rooms is pretty large by hotel standards. The JW Marriott is 325. Amway Grand is 682 in two buildings (essentially).

The other worry that the CAA may have (and should have) is downtown Detroit's resurgence. Many of the conventions here are regional, state-wide or super-regional. They could easily be taken away by Detroit and Cobo. 

[WMrapids]

“There are a lot of things that can get in the way of this,” he said, referencing parking and available financing for the project. “It’s very preliminary.”

This project has my support, but I hope parking really doesn’t become one of the main issues here.

 

3 minutes ago, GRDadof3 said:

The other worry that the CAA may have (and should have) is downtown Detroit's resurgence. Many of the conventions here are regional, state-wide or super-regional. They could easily be taken away by Detroit and Cobo. 

I was thinking the same thing since we are caught between Chicago and Detroit. How is the convention scene in Chicago? What will make us more attractive?

Edited December 8, 2018 by WMrapids

[joeDowntown]

4 hours ago, WMrapids said:

“There are a lot of things that can get in the way of this,” he said, referencing parking and available financing for the project. “It’s very preliminary.”

This project has my support, but I hope parking really doesn’t become one of the main issues here.

 

I was thinking the same thing since we are caught between Chicago and Detroit. How is the convention scene in Chicago? What will make us more attractive?

It sounds like our convention business is already doing well, and that is with Chicago and Detroit. I think this would help tip more conventions our way / retain existing business as it grows / needs more options. 

The one thing that Grand Rapids has over Chicago or Detroit, is our city is smaller / more accessible. That’s definitely a deterrent for massive conventions, but I think GR has a little bit of everything, which is great for smaller conventions. 

Joe

[GRDadof3]

3 hours ago, WMrapids said:

“There are a lot of things that can get in the way of this,” he said, referencing parking and available financing for the project. “It’s very preliminary.”

This project has my support, but I hope parking really doesn’t become one of the main issues here.

 

I was thinking the same thing since we are caught between Chicago and Detroit. How is the convention scene in Chicago? What will make us more attractive?

Chicago/McCormick Place gets massive national conventions. They're more likely to compete against Las Vegas than us or even Detroit. Completely different market.

Detroit on the other hand with the renovated Cobo could go after a lot of the smaller conventions like state-wide drain commissioners or township planners or legal groups or every other group that is Grand Rapids bread and butter for conventions.  With all of the new hotels in downtown Detroit, all the new construction cranes, Campus Martius, Tigers games, riverwalk, Eastern Market, new retail on Woodward, light rail to Midtown, etc.. those are all new selling tools they have that they didn't have even 5 years ago. 

Needless to say I'm very much in favor of this project. 

 

[ZAP!]

23 hours ago, GRLaker said:

If this moves forward, it will be a skyline changing development. Here’s to hoping it stays at 26 stories.

Here's to hoping they pull out all the stops and build the new tallest building in GR. (a girl can dream...)

[crinzema]

Stop with the mental gymnastics. The notion this doesn’t hurt other private hotels is so absurd. It’s obvious that there will be a transfer of guests to this publically owned hotel, decreasing profits for private, tax paying hotels. This is literally how you deincentivice sustainable development in downtown. 

 

Edited December 9, 2018 by crinzema

[WMrapids]

7 hours ago, GRDadof3 said:

Chicago/McCormick Place gets massive national conventions. They're more likely to compete against Las Vegas than us or even Detroit. Completely different market.

Detroit on the other hand with the renovated Cobo could go after a lot of the smaller conventions like state-wide drain commissioners or township planners or legal groups or every other group that is Grand Rapids bread and butter for conventions.

Ok, thanks for the explanation. I haven’t been to Cobo in awhile, but it seems like they have adequate parking options. I’m kinda sick of the parking discussions, but it wouldn’t hurt to have a little bit too much parking than to not have enough right?

It seems like parking has been a decision maker for many projects the past few years and the multiple discussions surrounding the topic can’t help with those deciding on whether or not to choose Grand Rapids for events, developments, etc. Again, parking could also just be the scapegoat right now, but the constant bickering does not make a good impression.

[joeDowntown]

2 hours ago, crinzema said:

Stop with the mental gymnastics. The notion this doesn’t hurt other private hotels is so absurd. It’s obvious that there will be a transfer of guests to this publically owned hotel, decreasing profits for private, tax paying hotels. This is literally how you deincentivice sustainable development in downtown. 

 

Other than location, how is this different than Hinman building a building that will house a hotel owned/operated by a third party? I assume that the CAA will own the building, pay for buildout, etc. but a third party will lease the property/run the hotel, pay for upkeep on the internal portion (room upkeep, etc). I can’t imagine they would enter into an agreement that would be dirt cheap for the hotel operator. 

Again, this hotel would have a definite advantage from a location perspective, and I’m sure the CAA/city/count get certain tax advantages, but I don’t think this is what I’d consider a fleecing. Ultimately, keeping the convention center competitive / successful should be the top priority of the CAA. 

Joe

[MJLO]

9 hours ago, crinzema said:

Stop with the mental gymnastics. The notion this doesn’t hurt other private hotels is so absurd. It’s obvious that there will be a transfer of guests to this publically owned hotel, decreasing profits for private, tax paying hotels. This is literally how you deincentivice sustainable development in downtown. 

 

Why don't you take a look at what happened with the hotels built by other convention authorities?   The lodging industry in Grand Rapids has been posting record occupancy for several years now.   With as aggressive as they have been with booking business there's no evidence to suggest it will slow.  If the CAA knows it needs X number of hotel rooms to book bigger events, but the current development scene leaves them short, it makes sense to make up the difference.  It's an investment to bring in the bigger dollars.  They will still have to get a mainstream hotel brand, they will still be subject to the standards to keep the branding, and they will still have to charge rates in line with the market. 

This is not the same as if the city of Grand Rapids were to build "Government Cheeseburgers" next door to McDonalds, then undercut their prices because they don't need a profit.  To infer so is a bit disingenuous IMO.    If it anchors a flagship brand it will still be priced slightly higher than all these mid level brands popping up everywhere, and will have a minimal impact on the overall market.

[GRDadof3]

In addition, show me a privately owned hotel downtown built recently or under construction that hasn't taken public tax credits or subsidies...  Kind of hard to complain about a publicly financed hotel enjoying handouts when you're sucking off the trough too (ahem Orion). 

In addition, convention business is only PART of the puzzle for downtown hotels. Much of the stays are for business travelers not attending a convention or conference here (says so in all of the articles).  So being connected to the convention center is really only a benefit if you're going to a convention there. 

In addition, if the current ownership/management of the Amway hotels is not worried about this hotel, why would the developers of other downtown hotels be worried about it? In fact, Buekemas who are doing the Embassy Suites have expressed an interest in doing a public/private partnership on this hotel. 

The tough sell really isn't going to be crinzema :), it's going to be the county, which has traditionally not liked things that benefited downtown (like the DDA) that affects them financially. I don't think parking is going to be an issue either, at all. 

Since I'm in support of this and they're going to look to hire an architect to develop more concrete plans/renderings, I'm going to start posting what I'd like to see (especially at ground level). 

 

[GRDadof3]

It'd be cool to see GR's first multi-story retail base (ignore the building above). 

[crinzema]

In a Cornell Study on this topic, this was the conclusion: "The overall picture that emerges from the analysis is one of deteriorating performance and of more volatile markets after the introduction of a P.O.H.  The data show that POHs tend to harm the performance metrics of existing hotels that most closely compete with them. Not only does performance decline but, in most cases, the markets become more volatile. The effect is observed in all three commonly used measures of performance: RevPAR, ADR, and OCC. The effects are statistically significant and economically meaningful." Link to study: https://scholarship.sha.cornell.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?referer=https://www.google.com/&httpsredir=1&article=1947&context=articles 

If you want a new shiny building at the expense of honest business owners like myself, fine. If you add up decisions like this, you end up with Detroit or Harrisburg.

  

Edited December 9, 2018 by crinzema

[Prankster]

31 minutes ago, crinzema said:

If you want a new shiny building at the expense of honest business owners like myself, fine. If you add up decisions like this, you end up with Detroit or Harrisburg.

But are you ok with businesses getting tax breaks or other advantages at the expense of other honest business owners?