House of Blues/hotel/office space, 18 stories, 105-107 1st Ave. South

[PruneTracy]

33 minutes ago, NashvilleObserver said:

This was the Los Angeles House of Blues. Not kidding. 

What happened to it? Did they tear it down after Waterworld wrapped up filming?

[leggy77]

That HOB in LA on Sunset was torn down last June.  It was nice inside.  the sheet metal look was the original theme for the early ones.

[titanhog]

It was actually really cool to drive down and through all of the glitz on Sunset...then see the old blues shack of HoB.  Too bad they tore it down.

[madisonman]

HOB would be great in nashville but this is not the right site.  Site is small and current zoning only allows 90 feet tall height buildings.  Also the building is in the historic overlay and a new and probably ugly 14 and 18 story building will block out the historic district behind it and cover up the shelby street bridge on the historic district side.  wrong location.  Also proposed guidelines call on stepping up the  building in height starting at 95' then 150' then 220' as well as stepping off 1st ave 10 after 5th floor.  not a pretty shape at all

Edited October 31, 2017 by madisonman

[Ingram]

14 hours ago, madisonman said:

HOB would be great in nashville but this is not the right site.  Site is small and current zoning only allows 90 feet tall height buildings.  Also the building is in the historic overlay and a new and probably ugly 14 and 18 story building will block out the historic district behind it and cover up the shelby street bridge on the historic district side.  wrong location.  Also proposed guidelines call on stepping up the  building in height starting at 95' then 150' then 220' as well as stepping off 1st ave 10 after 5th floor.  not a pretty shape at all

 

This isn't like a picnic spot at a local park. There are only so many locations where financial feasibility and operational success overlap. I'm sure there is a reason they selected that location. House of Blues is a big name tourism wise. It's only located in a few cities in the country. Is a view of "historic" 1 to 3 story buildings more valuable than a nationally known concert/dining operation that will increase Nashville's profile nationwide? Most people will remember having a good time at the Nashville House of Blues way more than they will of a view of old buildings in a "historic district".

[smeagolsfree]

Welcome to the forum madisonman! Please join us at the forum meets as well as everyone else. I would love to see every forum member to come to at least one meet up just so we can out a face to a name.

The reason you mentioned above is the exact reason it is on Metro Historic to start with.  A lot of problems to overcome. I still do not see this a viable project until I know who all the players are.

[grilled_cheese]

I would rather have a Brooklyn Bowl than a House of Blues.  I have only heard negative things about the other HoBs around the country.

[Ingram]

7 minutes ago, grilled_cheese said:

I would rather have a Brooklyn Bowl than a House of Blues.  I have only heard negative things about the other HoBs around the country.

 

They're scouting Nashville also.

[AronG]

On 10/31/2017 at 4:21 PM, madisonman said:

HOB would be great in nashville but this is not the right site.  Site is small and current zoning only allows 90 feet tall height buildings.  Also the building is in the historic overlay and a new and probably ugly 14 and 18 story building will block out the historic district behind it and cover up the shelby street bridge on the historic district side.  wrong location.  Also proposed guidelines call on stepping up the  building in height starting at 95' then 150' then 220' as well as stepping off 1st ave 10 after 5th floor.  not a pretty shape at all

We way overuse historical districts in my opinion (vs protecting specific historical buildings), but for once I think this is a strong case. Right now the limited-scale, 19th century brick vibe from lower broadway & 1st ave extends along that block to the pedestrian bridge. You can stand on the pedestrian bridge on Saturday evening and look out over the whole lower broad area and take the whole thing in and to me it's one of the most birds eye Nashville-y feelings there is. Dropping an 18-story building in there is going to seriously disrupt that. And I can't imagine how they would design it to not be jarring. The actual performance hall would be great there, but 18 stories is just going to dominate the postcard picture from the river.

This is a rare example where the *district* actually has historic value, rather than just individual buildings, which is the only time it actually makes sense to force new construction toward neo-historical buildings that match surrounding scale. We have like 20 neighborhoods and growing where all new buildings have to pretend like they're 100 years old, which is generally pretty laughable. I'm trying to build a garage in east nashville and the historic design restrictions literally consist of an attempt to codify requirements based on what garages would have looked like if anyone had them in 1920 in our working class, street car neighborhood. It's a joke.

For once though, I almost think I'll be rooting for MHZC to stand their ground.

[Nash_12South]

Isn't everything being discussed, or built on the other side of the Shelby Street bridge as tall if not taller? I don't see a big difference. 

[Ingram]

1 hour ago, Nash_12South said:

Isn't everything being discussed, or built on the other side of the Shelby Street bridge as tall if not taller? I don't see a big difference. 

 

What he is saying is if you replace the parking lot on the right with a new 18 story building it will block the view towards those "old buildings".

Edited November 2, 2017 by Ingram

[markhollin]

Here is the view from the Siegenthaler Bridge.  If a 4 story building of any type is built on the lot, it will obscure everything behind it except the rooftops.  So, it really doesn't matter if something taller is placed there if a "view" is what you're trying to go for.  

I think if the new structure was all brick, and went up to potentially 8 or 12 or 18 stories, it could be a very nice fit.  In the process it would also create a  "stair-step" from the 4 stories along the south side of Broadway to the sudden twin 40 story towers of the Second & Demonbreun that will be just to the south of the bridge.  It won't look as jarring to the eye. 

Additionally, by having an entrance off the bridge to the HOB complex on the north, and the the Second and Demonbruen development on the south, it could bring even more foot traffic/life to the pedestrian span.

 

[BnaBreaker]

I agree with Mark.  This should be built regardless of whether or not it blocks some sort of 'view,' but seeing as how there isn't really any worth while view to block, there is no reason to oppose it.  I have questions for anyone who would prefer a dead empty lot to a vibrant nightlife filled development that bridges the gap between Sobro and Broadway. 

[bnacincy]

I would like it if they built it in some period architecture on 2nd ave between Church and Bank streets.

I'm sick of looking at that parking lot-I was working at BWSC in the old Banner Bldg. on 3rd ave back in the 80's when those buildings burnt down -nothing would make me happier (well, almost) than to see somebody who cared to reconstruct those buildings down to a T and make that block vital again.

But that's just me......

[NashvilleObserver]

On 11/2/2017 at 3:56 PM, BnaBreaker said:

I agree with Mark.  This should be built regardless of whether or not it blocks some sort of 'view,' but seeing as how there isn't really any worth while view to block, there is no reason to oppose it.  I have questions for anyone who would prefer a dead empty lot to a vibrant nightlife filled development that bridges the gap between Sobro and Broadway. 

I agree. It won't ruin the "picture postcard" view of Nashville. Isn't that the view that everyone wishes people would stop using? For a group of people obsessed with Nashville development, there seems to be a lot of NIMBY-ism if the growth doesn't fit with one's idea of what it should be like. 

[madisonman]

On 11/2/2017 at 10:35 AM, AronG said:

We way overuse historical districts in my opinion (vs protecting specific historical buildings), but for once I think this is a strong case. Right now the limited-scale, 19th century brick vibe from lower broadway & 1st ave extends along that block to the pedestrian bridge. You can stand on the pedestrian bridge on Saturday evening and look out over the whole lower broad area and take the whole thing in and to me it's one of the most birds eye Nashville-y feelings there is. Dropping an 18-story building in there is going to seriously disrupt that. And I can't imagine how they would design it to not be jarring. The actual performance hall would be great there, but 18 stories is just going to dominate the postcard picture from the river.

This is a rare example where the *district* actually has historic value, rather than just individual buildings, which is the only time it actually makes sense to force new construction toward neo-historical buildings that match surrounding scale. We have like 20 neighborhoods and growing where all new buildings have to pretend like they're 100 years old, which is generally pretty laughable. I'm trying to build a garage in east nashville and the historic design restrictions literally consist of an attempt to codify requirements based on what garages would have looked like if anyone had them in 1920 in our working class, street car neighborhood. It's a joke.

For once though, I almost think I'll be rooting for MHZC to stand their ground.

You are so right.  There are plenty of other locations for house of blues to locate, how about next door on market street apartment site when they develop that site there are others in area as well.  Also If historic commission allows this 18 story bldg to be build then one can build a 18 story bldg in front of the symphony hall and one could tear down crabshack on 2nd ave south and build an 18 story bldg.  Lets not stop  maybe with a little more political pressure the old goddies property on 2nd ave North can be 18 stories.  There are more.  Can  Nashville just leave the very successful broadway historic district alone.  Can there be one area with no highrises.

 

 

[BnaBreaker]

5 hours ago, madisonman said:

You are so right.  There are plenty of other locations for house of blues to locate, how about next door on market street apartment site when they develop that site there are others in area as well.  Also If historic commission allows this 18 story bldg to be build then one can build a 18 story bldg in front of the symphony hall and one could tear down crabshack on 2nd ave south and build an 18 story bldg.  Lets not stop  maybe with a little more political pressure the old goddies property on 2nd ave North can be 18 stories.  There are more.  Can  Nashville just leave the very successful broadway historic district alone.  Can there be one area with no highrises.

 

 

This isn't a part of the Broadway historic district.  It isn't threatening any old buildings on Broadway or any other street.  It's taking the place of a long empty, desolate lot that has served as a dead spot on the city's urban landscape for quite some time.  We can agree to disagree on this, but I still can't understand why you'd prefer that dead space to a development which actually adds to the nightlife district of which you are rightfully so fond.  

[NashvilleObserver]

On November 10, 2017 at 9:53 PM, BnaBreaker said:

This isn't a part of the Broadway historic district.  It isn't threatening any old buildings on Broadway or any other street.  It's taking the place of a long empty, desolate lot that has served as a dead spot on the city's urban landscape for quite some time.  We can agree to disagree on this, but I still can't understand why you'd prefer that dead space to a development which actually adds to the nightlife district of which you are rightfully so fond.  

Can I get an AMEN!!!!!! What do these people prefer it to be? A two stories nothing restaurant??? It's a great development that harms nothing. These NIMBYs!

[LA_TN]

On 11/10/2017 at 4:34 PM, madisonman said:

You are so right.  There are plenty of other locations for house of blues to locate, how about next door on market street apartment site when they develop that site there are others in area as well.  Also If historic commission allows this 18 story bldg to be build then one can build a 18 story bldg in front of the symphony hall and one could tear down crabshack on 2nd ave south and build an 18 story bldg.  Lets not stop  maybe with a little more political pressure the old goddies property on 2nd ave North can be 18 stories.  There are more.  Can  Nashville just leave the very successful broadway historic district alone.  Can there be one area with no highrises.

 

 

There are people that would like to see a 50 story tower built in front of the Schermerhorn Symphony Center. The Plan of Nashville called for that lot to become a park (pedestrian mall) to serve as a gateway from Broadway

[AronG]

On 11/10/2017 at 9:53 PM, BnaBreaker said:

This isn't a part of the Broadway historic district.  It isn't threatening any old buildings on Broadway or any other street.  It's taking the place of a long empty, desolate lot that has served as a dead spot on the city's urban landscape for quite some time.  We can agree to disagree on this, but I still can't understand why you'd prefer that dead space to a development which actually adds to the nightlife district of which you are rightfully so fond.  

 

On 11/12/2017 at 1:14 AM, NashvilleObserver said:

Can I get an AMEN!!!!!! What do these people prefer it to be? A two stories nothing restaurant??? It's a great development that harms nothing. These NIMBYs!

 Man, you guys are a rough crowd. More power to you if you want to exaggerate the case against this into ridiculousness and then have fun dunking on it, but I haven't seen where anybody's advocating for an empty parking lot. We are very fortunate to not have to treat each development proposal as the last and only chance to develop a given parcel.

To me this isn't a huge deal, but it's an aesthetic question about how wide we want the historic Broadway district to be. It's soon going to be completely hemmed in on both sides and on upper broadway by the modern skyline. Which is a great look, I feel like; a great dichotomy between old Nashville and new. I enjoy it every day as I cross the river. On consideration of putting an 18 story building at this location, please allow me to register a mild (and apparently wildly unpopular) opinion that it would be cool if the historic scale buildings extended the full block to the pedestrian bridge. No big deal, just a thought. The low-rise district would extend from a half block north of Broadway to a full block south. It'd be cool. It will still also be cool if it this is built, just maybe slightly less coherent (in my, again, unpopular opinion). Please do me the favor of not tagging me as a pro-dead space NIMBY.

Thank you.

[BnaBreaker]

1 hour ago, AronG said:

 

 Man, you guys are a rough crowd. More power to you if you want to exaggerate the case against this into ridiculousness and then have fun dunking on it, but I haven't seen where anybody's advocating for an empty parking lot. We are very fortunate to not have to treat each development proposal as the last and only chance to develop a given parcel.

To me this isn't a huge deal, but it's an aesthetic question about how wide we want the historic Broadway district to be. It's soon going to be completely hemmed in on both sides and on upper broadway by the modern skyline. Which is a great look, I feel like; a great dichotomy between old Nashville and new. I enjoy it every day as I cross the river. On consideration of putting an 18 story building at this location, please allow me to register a mild (and apparently wildly unpopular) opinion that it would be cool if the historic scale buildings extended the full block to the pedestrian bridge. No big deal, just a thought. The low-rise district would extend from a half block north of Broadway to a full block south. It'd be cool. It will still also be cool if it this is built, just maybe slightly less coherent (in my, again, unpopular opinion). Please do me the favor of not tagging me as a pro-dead space NIMBY.

Thank you.

I'm not  saying you or anyone else is "pro dead space," but if one prefers dead space to this proposal, then they aren't  exactly giving people much room to think otherwise, at least when it comes to this particular plot of land.  I'd have no issue with a low rise brick structure of some kind featuring significant street activation here,  but that isn't what is being proposed.  This lot has sat empty for decades upon decades now.  Actually, this is the first proposal of any kind that I can remember for this lot in my lifetime.  So if this isn't built, then I'd say it's pretty unlikely that another development, particularly one that fits your very particular set of criteria,  would be proposed for it any time soon.  It just doesn't seem reasonable that we should be so picky with this space, especially when there are other modern highrises just as close to Broadway as it would be.  If it were the only highrise within a couple blocks of Broadway I might be able to understand the opposition, but it isn't by a long shot. 

Edited November 13, 2017 by BnaBreaker

[titanhog]

To me, keep the low-rise buildings from Bridgestone Arena to the river on both sides facing Broadway...and keep the low-rises on 2nd Ave from Broadway up towards the courthouse...but then everywhere else should be as high as needed.

[markhollin]

Bowing to concerns raised by downtown merchants, the Metro Historic Zoning Commission earlier this week deferred a critical vote on proposed revisions to design guidelines for the Broadway, Second Avenue and Downtown historic districts.

The vote on matters such as height of buildings on two specific sites, signage and lighting carry implications including for design of an 18-story building with a House of Blues and a high-end hotel proposed for a parking lot at 105 and 107 First Ave. S.

Historic Zoning Commission Executive Director Tim Walker said Wednesday's vote delay for at least a month would allow time for education and more input from stakeholders. A community meeting will be held before the revisions are taken up, possibly in December.

http://www.tennessean.com/story/money/real-estate/2017/11/17/downtown-merchants-outcry-delays-key-vote-affects-nashvilles-house-blues/875965001/

[MLBrumby]

If they want any chance of this passing zoning, they better proffer a building that looks like an old classical (that means brick!) design. 

[markhollin]

This map from the Broadway Historical Zoning Overlay shows the allowances for height on the lot being considered for the House of Blues project on the far right.

Note that the address of 105 1st Ave. South portion of the lot is 80'/6 stories, the next section to the south is 95'/7stories, and the third section (107 1st Ave. South) is 220'/18 stories.  So, the HOB structure would be shorter right next to Acme Feed & Seed on the north, and then get taller until reaching the full 220' height next to the ramp up to the Seigenthaler Pedestrian Bridge.

Also, within the code for this overlay, it is made clear that all construction materials on new structures built adjacent to existing buildings should match any bordering neighbors.  Since Acme Feed & Seed to the north, and the old Trail West Company building to the west are reddish/brown brick, then the HOB would need to have the same.   I'm anxious to see the renderings.  I think a classic design that stair-steps up from 6 stories to 18 stories in brick would look REALLY cool on this lot.  It would definitely honor the style of the neighborhood, while simultaneously helping lead the eyes from the 3 story Acme building up to the twin 40 story 2nd & Demonbreun towers a block to the south in a more pleasing manner when gazing westward from the riverfront.