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I really think it’s time to reduce the lanes on Rosalind and turn it back into a two-way street. Add in mature trees and create shade making this hospitable to pedestrian activity.

There is a reason all retail fails here - no one actually enjoys walking it. Meanwhile, isn’t Central Ave retail at about 100% occupancy? 

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12 hours ago, prahaboheme said:

I really think it’s time to reduce the lanes on Rosalind and turn it back into a two-way street. Add in mature trees and create shade making this hospitable to pedestrian activity.

There is a reason all retail fails here - no one actually enjoys walking it. Meanwhile, isn’t Central Ave retail at about 100% occupancy? 

Why would a two-way street that you can't park on improve pedestrian activity? No issues in large cities such as NY and Chicago, with many street one-way. There's never been any retail in downtown Orlando worth going to. Maybe that will change. People need stores, not bars. 

Edited by Jvest55
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Hmmm, “never been an retail in downtown Orlando worth going to”

Department stores: Ivey’s, Dickson-Ives, Belk’s, Sears, JCPenney, Mather’s

Upscale specialty clothing stores: Rutland, Gibbs-Louis, Brenner’s

Other clothing stores: Lerner’s, Virginia Dare

Jewelry stores including Swalstead’s, John Glenn

JFW’s favorites, the dime stores! Kress, Woolworth’s, WT Grant, McCrory’s

Others: Sharper Image, Brookstone, Victoria’s Secret, B. Dalton, Bumby Hardware

Also, Walgreens, Rexall drug stores, Morrison’s Cafeteria, TGI Friday, a food Court, the Beacham and Carver Theatres

I could go on but suffice it to say there was enough to fill an average size mall.

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1 minute ago, Jvest55 said:

Why would a two-way street that you can't park on improve pedestrian activity? No issues in large cities such as NY and Chicago, with many street one-way. There's never been any retail in downtown Orlando worth going to. Maybe that will change. People need stores, not bars. 

Agreed.

Narrowing Rosalind and making it two way would only serve to do away with what is now, a (usually) speedy and relatively snarl-free route for drivers to get through downtown heading north. Like it or not, cars and drivers are a consideration in Orlando and need to taken into account.

And of course, doing away with on-street parking would only result in worsening the downtown parking situation.

I would like to see more trees along the west side of the street, though. It seems like a good compromise might be to extend planters off the curb in between parking spaces... 

Screenshot-87.png

They might only work for small and mid-sized cars, but I'm OK with inconveniencing the drivers of those full and over-sized SUVs and gigantic pickup trucks.

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14 minutes ago, JFW657 said:

Agreed.

Narrowing Rosalind and making it two way would only serve to do away with what is now, a (usually) speedy and relatively snarl-free route for drivers to get through downtown heading north. Like it or not, cars and drivers are a consideration in Orlando and need to taken into account.

And of course, doing away with on-street parking would only result in worsening the downtown parking situation.

I would like to see more trees along the west side of the street, though. It seems like a good compromise might be to extend planters off the curb in between parking spaces... 

Screenshot-87.png

They might only work for small and mid-sized cars, but I'm OK with inconveniencing the drivers of those full and over-sized SUVs and gigantic pickup trucks.

If you keep Rosalind as a raceway, you’ll keep pedestrians (and retail) away. Just like on South, Anderson and Robinson Street.

Which is OK if that’s what you want. I live downtown and I avoid those streets entirely unless I’m in my car going elsewhere. Walking to Publix, the library, church and the Y, I use the narrow streets like Central, Church and Summerlin.

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14 minutes ago, spenser1058 said:

If you keep Rosalind as a raceway, you’ll keep pedestrians (and retail) away. Just like on South, Anderson and Robinson Street.

Which is OK if that’s what you want. I live downtown and I avoid those streets entirely unless I’m in my car going elsewhere. Walking to Publix, the library, church and the Y, I use the narrow streets like Central, Church and Summerlin.

Maybe, but like I said, vehicle traffic and drivers are a reality of life in Orlando that cannot be ignored. I cant believe that responsible govt would include increasing gridlock in downtown for the sake of making a nicer walking experience. I would think that as long as there are decent sidewalks with nice, shady trees added, people would be fine with walking along that area as long as there was a reason to be there.

But, ground floor of Modera aside, if you consider the existing buildings along Rosalind, there really aren't (m)any feasible opportunities to locate retail in right now. Maybe if Cambria happens there will be a couple more, but Rosalind just isn't lined with the kind of storefront ready buildings in which to locate retail establishments.

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1 hour ago, Jvest55 said:

Why would a two-way street that you can't park on improve pedestrian activity? No issues in large cities such as NY and Chicago, with many street one-way.

Yay, someone else that thinks like me!  I've been on my personal soapbox saying that every time it comes up here.  We need to start thinking like bigger cities.

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It’s an ongoing debate unlikely to be resolved any time soon:

https://www.ayresassociates.com/one-way-or-the-other-two-way-traffic-conversion-requires-study/

Personally, I’m agnostic about which way the street goes. What I know is that the more lanes the road has the less welcome I feel as a pedestrian and I avoid those wherever possible.

Suffice it to say you won’t see nearly as many people walking on South St. or Rosalind Ave. as you will on Central Blvd or Summerlin Ave.

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9 minutes ago, gibby said:

Did someone propose removing on street parking?  I'm not seeing that anywhere.

I’d be surprised if they did. The city has been using onstreet parking as a traffic calming device for a while now. It also helps defray the loss of the spots under I4.

1 minute ago, dcluley98 said:

If they take away the  parking, then where are we going to show off all of our Ferrari Enzo's? 

Isn’t that why we have Winter Park?

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12 hours ago, JFW657 said:

Maybe, but like I said, vehicle traffic and drivers are a reality of life in Orlando that cannot be ignored. I cant believe that responsible govt would include increasing gridlock in downtown for the sake of making a nicer walking experience. I would think that as long as there are decent sidewalks with nice, shady trees added, people would be fine with walking along that area as long as there was a reason to be there.

But, ground floor of Modera aside, if you consider the existing buildings along Rosalind, there really aren't (m)any feasible opportunities to locate retail in right now. Maybe if Cambria happens there will be a couple more, but Rosalind just isn't lined with the kind of storefront ready buildings in which to locate retail establishments.

Actually, it can be ignored.

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14 hours ago, Jvest55 said:

Why would a two-way street that you can't park on improve pedestrian activity? No issues in large cities such as NY and Chicago, with many street one-way. There's never been any retail in downtown Orlando worth going to. Maybe that will change. People need stores, not bars. 

See:

Newbury Street - Boston

King Street - Charleston 

Melrose Ave - LA

or for somewhere more local, Park Ave

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6 hours ago, prahaboheme said:

See:

Newbury Street - Boston

King Street - Charleston 

Melrose Ave - LA

or for somewhere more local, Park Ave

Perhaps when I-4 isn't such a clusterf**k, Rosalind could be looked at. What about trying to activate Magnolia?

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The VUE was supposed to have quite a bit of retail along Rosalind but they didn’t get so much as a nibble. It became a law office instead.

The truth is that Rosalind and Robinson as currently configured are made for cars not people. No one wants to walk along that vapid stretch so precious few do. They just zoom by at 45mph on their way elsewhere.

The Gym (in the old George Stuart building) keeps being sold off to new owners who think it should be great as one of the few public gyms downtown but it’s just not convenient.It’s much more pleasant to stroll to the Y (even though the Y is more expensive).

 

 

 

 

 

 

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8 minutes ago, JFW657 said:

Puh - lease. 

It certainly won't be, let me put it that way.

Cities the world over are putting the emphasis in pedestrian zones back where it belongs. Orlando doesn’t need to be the exception and reducing lanes to make the area more humanizing hardly seems like a sacrifice.

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On 11/20/2019 at 11:46 AM, spenser1058 said:

Hmmm, “never been an retail in downtown Orlando worth going to”

Department stores: Ivey’s, Dickson-Ives, Belk’s, Sears, JCPenney, Mather’s

Upscale specialty clothing stores: Rutland, Gibbs-Louis, Brenner’s

Other clothing stores: Lerner’s, Virginia Dare

Jewelry stores including Swalstead’s, John Glenn

JFW’s favorites, the dime stores! Kress, Woolworth’s, WT Grant, McCrory’s

Others: Sharper Image, Brookstone, Victoria’s Secret, B. Dalton, Bumby Hardware

Also, Walgreens, Rexall drug stores, Morrison’s Cafeteria, TGI Friday, a food Court, the Beacham and Carver Theatres

I could go on but suffice it to say there was enough to fill an average size mall.

Downtown was quite the shopping experience well into the 80’s. I remember the arcades too.

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18 hours ago, mraurora said:

Perhaps when I-4 isn't such a clusterf**k, Rosalind could be looked at. What about trying to activate Magnolia?

That's a false choice to me.

You'll have to explain.

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16 hours ago, prahaboheme said:

Cities the world over are putting the emphasis in pedestrian zones back where it belongs. Orlando doesn’t need to be the exception and reducing lanes to make the area more humanizing hardly seems like a sacrifice.

In certain areas, I'm sure that works out very well, but it can't (or shouldn't) be seen as a one-size-fits-all proposition. 

What works in one place might not necessarily work in another. 

Could I see Church Street between Orange and Garland being blocked off to vehicular traffic and turned into a pedestrian mall? Absolutely. 

Maybe Pine Street between Orange and Court Avenue and Court between Central and Pine as well.

But I can't see either now or in the foreseeable future, narrowing  a needed vehicular thoroughfare like Rosalind and/or returning it to two way traffic. It would cause a traffic nightmare and a public uproar.

Orlando is and will continue to be an automobile dependent city despite any well-meaning attempts to turn it into some urbanista vision of what an ideal city center should be.

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College Park was going to be doomed when Edgewater Drive went on a road diet. Doomed, I tell you! Well, no. It was narrowed, bike lanes were added and College Park is more successful than ever.

As City Beautiful points out below, no one knows what will work and won’t work. For every Lincoln Road in Miami Beach that succeeds beyond anyone’s wildest dreams, there is a Franklin St. Mall in Tampa that was a bust.

Some cities work, some don’t. Orlando’s efforts downtown have mostly worked. We know that streets like Central Blvd encourage pedestrians and the retail that has popped up has been mostly successful. We also know the “racetrack” streets like Rosalind, South and Robinson have not.

We also can see hybrids that give us an idea of how it will play out. Orange Avenue thrived when it was narrowed between Jefferson St. and South St.

We know the stretch north of there from Robinson to Lake Ivanhoe still attracts precious few pedestrians and attempts at retail so far haven’t worked.

Meanwhile, despite adding park space, fountains, etc. with Mayor Bill’s Southern Gateway is devoid of human life.

A walk into the Publix on pedestrian-friendly Central Blvd. vs  Earth Fare at the corner of autocentric Orange and Gore confirms that, in this part of Orlando, walkability is a plus and no one walks where there is more room for cars than people.

No, as we saw with the badly planned Curry Ford experiment, it won’t work everywhere. It has been shown to work in downtowns like Orlando, Winter Park and Winter Garden. Expanding those areas give us potential to expand rather just ignoring 1950’s designs that no longer match their neighborhoods.

https://youtu.be/hbhuGkSQvK0

BTW, for most of its history Rosalind was a two-way street. Its  conversion had nothing to do with some sort of “improvement” for that street. Mayor Bill simply did it because of closing off the existing northbound pair segment for FL 527, Magnolia Ave, in order to add OSCAR/Lymmo. 

There are car people and walk/bike people. Some in both camps believe it’s a religious calling (just ride a bicycle in a carcentric neighborhood and you’ll discover that fact quickly). 90% or more of Central Florida is devoted to the automobile. Surely 10% or so can let people come before machines.

 

Edited by spenser1058
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