BridgeWay Station mixed use development-Mauldin, SC

[Exile]

10 hours ago, gman430 said:

I don’t have a problem with this development. It’s doing exactly what Magnolia Park and the Point were supposed to be originally. Every large metro area throughout the country has mixed use developments like this in the suburbs. No reason Greenville can’t or shouldn’t. Besides, this has much better design and looks than a regular suburban shopping center with large parking lots out front like you see at Easley Town Center, Shops at Greenridge, Cherrydale Point, etc. 

Hughes Investments has owned that land for a long time. I gotta think this is a well-thought-out development with a high probability of success. And they've obviously made major contributions to downtown development, so from that perspective there's balance in this development.

Some people (a lot of them) just don't want to work downtown; even if the transit and parking options were plentiful and cheap.

[PuppiesandKittens]

OK, fair enough.  We all want the best for Greenville.  I just don't care for suburban sprawl and wouldn't want to work in an office park, and I just like downtowns.  To each his own.

[motonenterprises]

5 hours ago, Exile said:

Hughes Investments has owned that land for a long time. I gotta think this is a well-thought-out development with a high probability of success. And they've obviously made major contributions to downtown development, so from that perspective there's balance in this development.

Some people (a lot of them) just don't want to work downtown; even if the transit and parking options were plentiful and cheap.

That was pretty much going to be the same thing I was going to post. This land was bought by Hughes quite awhile ago to be developed. I'd much rather see this than some traditional strip mall type development. I don't get why some people don't like this. He owns it and has for awhile and was going to do this. Would it be better if it stayed as it is now? A Charter building stuck out there by itself?

[gman430]

 Let’s get this party started. 

Edited April 10, 2018 by gman430

[Spero]

1 hour ago, motonenterprises said:

That was pretty much going to be the same thing I was going to post. This land was bought by Hughes quite awhile ago to be developed. I'd much rather see this than some traditional strip mall type development. I don't get why some people don't like this. He owns it and has for awhile and was going to do this. Would it be better if it stayed as it is now? A Charter building stuck out there by itself?

I think that if all goes according to plan it would be great and I’m rooting for it to succeed. However I’d echo the sentiment that it’s not likely to be built all the way out as shown on its rendering just because of the market for retail and office space without reshuffling the deck and drawing tenants away from the CBD a là BB&T.

The assumption that it will all go according to plan is a pretty big one. I know this is an unfair comparison, but BullStreet in Columbia started with a very similar vision, underwent significant change due to adverse market change, and ultimately drew tenants away from other developing arts of downtown that would have benefited.

[Upstate Guy]

For what my 2 cents are worth...I would like to see a much larger portion of residential replace some of the office/retail space. With the glut of office space already available, I don't see the need for it right now. Otherwise, I am excited to see development start to fill in the gaps alone 385. 

[distortedlogic]

6 hours ago, Spero said:

I think that if all goes according to plan it would be great and I’m rooting for it to succeed. However I’d echo the sentiment that it’s not likely to be built all the way out as shown on its rendering just because of the market for retail and office space without reshuffling the deck and drawing tenants away from the CBD a là BB&T.

The assumption that it will all go according to plan is a pretty big one. I know this is an unfair comparison, but BullStreet in Columbia started with a very similar vision, underwent significant change due to adverse market change, and ultimately drew tenants away from other developing arts of downtown that would have benefited.

Good points, I wonder about the feasibility of this ambitious plan as well, but I really like it, and hope it works out. I also have a concern about this taking away from DT, but if Greenville is to get to the next level it's going to have to incorporate other nodes of dense and "complete" development like this. I'm a little surprised this is starting and yet we haven't seen anymore comprehensive renderings of buildings. I guess it will be one building at a time? That may make it harder to get a complimentary total project. I really like the marketing rendering they have been using.

[PuppiesandKittens]

14 hours ago, motonenterprises said:

Would it be better if it stayed as it is now?

Yes, based on the post immediately below yours (the picture of the nice green field).  I'd much prefer that to a new suburban sprawl.

I appreciate that Greenville needs to go to the "next level", which is a frequently-expressed desire by many posters, but cities that are on the "next level" often have extensive green space and sustainable development.  Concentrating development downtown, and protecting green space, is, in my view, a better method of development than suburban sprawl.

[gman430]

1 hour ago, PuppiesandKittens said:

Yes, based on the post immediately below yours (the picture of the nice green field).  I'd much prefer that to a new suburban sprawl.

I appreciate that Greenville needs to go to the "next level", which is a frequently-expressed desire by many posters, but cities that are on the "next level" often have extensive green space and sustainable development.  Concentrating development downtown, and protecting green space, is, in my view, a better method of development than suburban sprawl.

I understand what you’re saying but Hughes owns this entire site.  No developer including him is going to sit on it and pay taxes when they could be making a profit and revenue instead. Going off the site plans, it looks like a good amount of green space will be included along the I-385 frontage. 

Due to the amount of growth already going on in this area (https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.greenvilleonline.com/amp/488944002) of the county, stopping this project might actually make the sprawl worse as developments go around it and further south decreasing urbanity. 

[motonenterprises]

1 hour ago, PuppiesandKittens said:

Yes, based on the post immediately below yours (the picture of the nice green field).  I'd much prefer that to a new suburban sprawl.

I appreciate that Greenville needs to go to the "next level", which is a frequently-expressed desire by many posters, but cities that are on the "next level" often have extensive green space and sustainable development.  Concentrating development downtown, and protecting green space, is, in my view, a better method of development than suburban sprawl.

He didn't buy the investment to build nothing. As I said, he bought this quite a long time ago just for this purpose. The Charter building was built and then there was a stall. As an investor I would do the same. Empty land doesn't pay unless there is something on it to create income. And it's not so much the desire of the posters to go to the next level as it is to the leadership in the area. Southern cities sprawl. It is what it is. That's why we have choices. But I'd rather live in better climate where there is some sprawl versus a climate that is always cold and nasty.

[PuppiesandKittens]

1 hour ago, gman430 said:

I understand what you’re saying but Hughes owns this entire site.  No developer including him is going to sit on it and pay taxes when they could be making a profit and revenue instead. Going off the site plans, it looks like a good amount of green space will be included along the I-385 frontage. 

Due to the amount of growth already going on in this area (https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.greenvilleonline.com/amp/488944002) of the county, stopping this project might actually make the sprawl worse as developments go around it and further south decreasing urbanity. 

My family owns about 100 acres of vacant land in that area.  We sit on it because we don't want it turned into suburban sprawl.  I believe that if land is used for farming (which is what ours is used for), the taxes might be lower, which reduces the financial burden.

[Exile]

I'm with distortedlogic on having nodes of development--mini-downtowns and "Mayberrys" around the urban area, all more or less interlocking. I think it makes an urban splotch much more interesting.

I know very little about the technicalities of urban planning, but the whole notion of "planning" seems to me to have the potential to run roughshod over the good sense of the people who actually have a tangible stake in development, i.e., the landowners and developers. Not dissing planning; just noting a need for balance. There are always going to be developments that don't appeal to one or more of us individually. For example, it never made sense to me to try to convert that Celanese plant into office or flex or whatever it was they were trying to do with it. The market eventually ruled, the plant building is gone, and it's developing slowly but nicely, and gives Greenville a nice presence along I-85. Other developments I thought were ill-conceived were big successes. Et cetera.

But I've got no skin in that game. Phil Hughes does. He'll develop that property according to his best judgment and the market will render its verdict. But when I said he's owned it for a long time, I mean somewhere in excess of 20 years ( I made inquiries about it back in the '90's). Possibly much longer, especially if perhaps his father owned it before him. I don't know. Clearly he thinks its prime time to do something with it. But I will say that it seems we're overdue for a downturn, and there are those who say that we're already on the edge of a bear market. So while I'm sure Hughes has done his homework, there's still a lot of risk involved, especially if there's a relatively quick buildout of the whole concept. We'll see.

[Joey_Blackdogg]

1 hour ago, motonenterprises said:

Empty land doesn't pay unless there is something on it to create income.

Sure, empty land doesn't pay. But empty land is more cost effective and cheaper to maintain than empty residential, retail & office space, which is what Hughes will have in either his developments in the CBD or in the burbs, maybe both with the excess volume we already have.

[gman430]

37 minutes ago, Joey_Blackdogg said:

Sure, empty land doesn't pay. But empty land is more cost effective and cheaper to maintain than empty residential, retail & office space, which is what Hughes will have in either his developments in the CBD or in the burbs, maybe both with the excess volume we already have.

How do you know the tenant space is going to be empty? Maybe he has LOI’s signed already. Me thinks he does because the project wasn’t supposed to start construction until 2020 originally.

Edited April 11, 2018 by gman430

[Joey_Blackdogg]

6 minutes ago, gman430 said:

How do you know the tenant space is going to be empty? Maybe he has LOI’s signed already. 

Maybe it's the 225 listings available for lease all over the place already with more likely coming on line between now and when Bridgeway is finished? 

http://www.loopnet.com/south-carolina/greenville_office-space-for-lease/

Even if he does have LIOs signed, what are the odds that it is new business in the area? I'm just worried about robbing Peter to pay Phil.  

[motonenterprises]

38 minutes ago, Joey_Blackdogg said:

Sure, empty land doesn't pay. But empty land is more cost effective and cheaper to maintain than empty residential, retail & office space, which is what Hughes will have in either his developments in the CBD or in the burbs, maybe both with the excess volume we already have.

I know Hughes. He's been doing this for a very long time and has had great success. He's done his homework. Positioning for current and future growth.

Edited April 11, 2018 by motonenterprises

[PuppiesandKittens]

I have heard only rave reviews of Phil Hughes from people who know him, and I am very grateful to him for all of the great things he's done for downtown. 

[vistatiger]

They are just starting construction on that one office building. Correct?. Will probably take decades for this to develop. Doubt it ever looks like those illustrations. Where is all the retail coming from?  In a time when many major retailers are closing or shrinking the size of  their brick and mortar stores. Unless they are all moving down a few exits from Haywood Mall and Woodruff leaving a big empty mess there.

[motonenterprises]

3 hours ago, PuppiesandKittens said:

My family owns about 100 acres of vacant land in that area.  We sit on it because we don't want it turned into suburban sprawl.  I believe that if land is used for farming (which is what ours is used for), the taxes might be lower, which reduces the financial burden.

You apparently didn't buy it as an investment to make money. Hughes did.

20 minutes ago, vistatiger said:

They are just starting construction on that one office building. Correct?. Will probably take decades for this to develop. Doubt it ever looks like those illustrations. Where is all the retail coming from?  In a time when many major retailers are closing or shrinking the size of  their brick and mortar stores. Unless they are all moving down a few exits from Haywood Mall and Woodruff leaving a big empty mess there.

As the area continues to grow, there is room for more. Mauldin area is expected to double it's population. The area is hot.

Edited April 11, 2018 by motonenterprises

[gman430]

41 minutes ago, vistatiger said:

They are just starting construction on that one office building. Correct?. Will probably take decades for this to develop. Doubt it ever looks like those illustrations. Where is all the retail coming from?  In a time when many major retailers are closing or shrinking the size of  their brick and mortar stores. Unless they are all moving down a few exits from Haywood Mall and Woodruff leaving a big empty mess there.

Phase 1 is starting construction right now. Over 1 million square feet. Pages 17-19 to see the phase 1 plans:  https://docs.wixstatic.com/ugd/1bb3d9_1797e96ea5ca4ffd98fc860265e27bbd.pdf Hughes is targeting local and regional tenants over national ones. 

[PuppiesandKittens]

One more thing:

The law of supply and demand for real estate, and the effects of demographics on real estate demand, also apply in Greenville.  Greenville already has an oversupply of office real estate, and it has pretty crummy income/education level demographics particularly to the west of downtown. 

I'm surprised, given the crummy demographics west of downtown, that downtown has become so nice and with such nice stores.  At some point, though, reality is going to set in and with significant continued construction, we're going to have empty buildings in downtown and/or the suburbs.  I expect a hotel bust (or mini-bust) downtown and there could also be an office bust.

The same rules of real estate that led to 3 of Greenville's 4 malls closing also apply to other sectors, like office and hotel space.

[Exile]

2 minutes ago, PuppiesandKittens said:

The same rules of real estate that led to 3 of Greenville's 4 malls closing also apply to other sectors, like office and hotel space.

I think you're right about supply and demand, and you might be right about the potential busts.

But I don't think Greenville's mall history is a good example of that. Greenville's unusual because all 4 malls were so close to each other. If one had been built, e.g.,  somewhere in Powdersville and another in Simpsonville, we might still have as many as three operating malls.

But malls seem to be out of style, at least in the South, and that's another thread....

[SVL]

41 minutes ago, gman430 said:

Phase 1 is starting construction right now. Over 1 million square feet. Pages 17-19 to see the phase 1 plans:  https://docs.wixstatic.com/ugd/1bb3d9_1797e96ea5ca4ffd98fc860265e27bbd.pdf Hughes is targeting local and regional tenants over national ones. 

So I'm assuming that that the majority of parking here is in parking garages and not surface lots.  Am I looking at this right?

[gman430]

23 minutes ago, SVL said:

So I'm assuming that that the majority of parking here is in parking garages and not surface lots.  Am I looking at this right?

Phase 1 will be surface lots at first. It will be replaced with more buildings and garages as other phases get built. 

[vistatiger]

2 hours ago, Exile said:

I think you're right about supply and demand, and you might be right about the potential busts.

But I don't think Greenville's mall history is a good example of that. Greenville's unusual because all 4 malls were so close to each other. If one had been built, e.g.,  somewhere in Powdersville and another in Simpsonville, we might still have as many as three operating malls.

But malls seem to be out of style, at least in the South, and that's another thread....

I agree. One big thing that didn't help also was the  consolidation of many of the department stores that anchored them and the explosion of freestanding big box stores. At one time Greenville had enough different dept. store companies to anchor 3 or 4 malls.

Edited April 11, 2018 by vistatiger